212 replies to this topic

[martian]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

You can not solve for "These 4 players with 5000 PSR are actually a million times stronger than these 4 other players with 5000 PSR" in this conversation.

That's an entirely different problem.

You can solve for "This team has totally random 'Mechs" by adding the Select 'Mech function to the already-existent pre-game lobby.

You have actually not responded to my post.

[Vlad Ward]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

You have actually not responded to my post.

I've responded to every relevant situation.

"Four Tier 1's on one team and the other team is all Tier 3" isn't a queue problem. It's a Matchmaker problem and/or a population problem.

"Four Tier 1's who are actually good on one team and Four Tier 1's who are bad on the other" is a PSR cap and edge compression problem that splitting queues doesn't solve.

"Four Tier 1's who coordinate 'Mech loadouts on one team and Four Tier 1's who don't coordinate 'Mech loadouts the other" can be solved by adding Select 'Mech to the pre-match lobby.

"Four Tier 1's who call targets and communicate on one team and Four Tier 1's who don't on the other" is a situation that tells me the team who isn't communicating should get hammered until they drop out of Tier 1. That's 100% a performance indicator which should impact PSR.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:00 AM, said:

OG mixed queue had no rules and PGi didn't "have" to do anything. They chose the fastest/easiest way to reduce the number of people complaining on Twitter.

My point was that we're well agreed that Group Queue had a lot of significant downsides and most people's preferred solution is literally "Split into Solo Queue and Soup Queue with an Opt-In so people can shut the eff up about it already" - which isn't so much a solution as it is an escape route.

The solution is giving solo players the tools they need to compete with grouped players on equal footing - which they objectively do not have right now.

1) mixed queue has never worked in any gamemode.
2) every gamemode with groups has failed miserably.

yet somehow you continue to defend mixed queue and groups despite all past evidence showing it clearly doesnt work? not only that but the evidence supports that groups even destroy their own dedicated gamemodes which is how we ended up with this mixed queue disaster in the first place.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:00 AM, said:

"Four Tier 1's on one team and the other team is all Tier 3" isn't a queue problem. It's a Matchmaker problem and/or a population problem.

everyone knows is a damn matchmaker problem. the reality is the matchmaker doesnt work though.

thats precisely why we cant have mixed queues.

if they do somehow manage to get the matchmaker to work then we can discuss having a mixed queue. but dont put the cart before the horse. until that happens we need two separate queues.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:00 AM, said:

The solution is giving solo players the tools they need to compete with grouped players on equal footing - which they objectively do not have right now.

what tools are those? please elaborate. what tools could possibly allow random pugs to suddenly become equal to an elite tier1 group?

the problem with your solutions is theyre entirely imaginary and delusional. even you cant explain them.

While the rest of us are solidly grounded in the reality that mixed queue cant possibly work without a functioning matchmaker.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 11:13 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 10:53 AM, said:

what tools are those? please elaborate. what tools will allow a random pugs to suddenly become equal to an elite tier1 group?

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

I've responded to every relevant situation.

"Four Tier 1's on one team and the other team is all Tier 3" isn't a queue problem. It's a Matchmaker problem and/or a population problem.

"Four Tier 1's who are actually good on one team and Four Tier 1's who are bad on the other" is a PSR cap and edge compression problem that splitting queues doesn't solve.

"Four Tier 1's who coordinate 'Mech loadouts on one team and Four Tier 1's who don't coordinate 'Mech loadouts the other" can be solved by adding Select 'Mech to the pre-match lobby.

"Four Tier 1's who call targets and communicate on one team and Four Tier 1's who don't on the other" is a situation that tells me the team who isn't communicating should get hammered until they drop out of Tier 1. That's 100% a performance indicator which should impact PSR.

[martian]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

I've responded to every relevant situation
....

No.

You missed "4-man Tier 1 well-coordinated premade on one side" that can not be split by the matchmaker between the both teams, so one team gets that premade and mix of T2 and T3 players, while the other team is just a random hodge-podge of T2 and T3 players.

And since the matchmaker can not split such group (and no change is in sight) and the MWO population is ... as is ..., you have got an unsolvable problem.

[Vlad Ward]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 11:10 AM, said:

No.

You missed "4-man Tier 1 well-coordinated premade on one side" that can not be split by the matchmaker between the both teams, so one team gets that premade and mix of T2 and T3 players, while the other team is just a random hodge-podge of T2 and T3 players.

And since the matchmaker can not split such group (and no change is in sight) and the MWO population is ... as is ..., you have got an unsolvable problem.

That's literally the edge case for scenario 1. If the only 4 Tier 1 players in existence (as far as the MM is concerned) are in the same group, then congrats you have a stupid edge case that can't be solved.

Of course, splitting the queues only makes everyone's population issues worse, so have fun with that.

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

a prematch lobby does not make four pugs equal to an elite tier 1 elite group.

If all 4 of these "pugs" are capped bar Tier 1's and 'Select Mech' doesn't even the odds, they deserve to lose.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 07 June 2021 - 11:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

"Four Tier 1's who coordinate 'Mech loadouts on one team and Four Tier 1's who don't coordinate 'Mech loadouts the other" can be solved by adding Select 'Mech to the pre-match lobby.

a prematch lobby does not make four pugs equal to an elite tier 1 elite group.

again youre delusional.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

If all 4 of these "pugs" are capped bar Tier 1's and 'Select Mech' doesn't even the odds, they deserve to lose.

you do realize you can have huge variance in skill level even within a tier right? not all tier 1 players are exactly the same skill level. the tier system doesnt distinguish between players that are barely good enough to be tier 1 and players that are the absolute best in the world.

tiers mean absolutely nothing for accurately determining player skill because its not a true ELO system.

how ignorant are you?

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

Of course, splitting the queues only makes everyone's population issues worse, so have fun with that.

yeah but were willing to wait a little longer for queues if it means groups arnt in them.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 11:23 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

you do realize you can have huge variance in skill level even within a tier right?

not all tier 1s are exactly the same skill level.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

I've responded to every relevant situation.

"Four Tier 1's who are actually good on one team and Four Tier 1's who are bad on the other" is a PSR cap and edge compression problem that splitting queues doesn't solve.

You gotta chill with the personal attacks, man.

[Khobai]

so you admit matchmaker needs to be fixed for mixed queue to work properly?

yet somehow you think having a mixed queue without a working matchmaker is fine?

there is a serious circular fallacy in your logic.


the only logical course of action is two have two separate queues until such a time when there is a working matchmaker and mixed queue could possibly work.

fix matchmaker first. then entertain the idea of a mixed queue. not before.

we need to go back to separate queues until then.


but lets be honest here. we both know damn well that the matchmaker will NEVER work. you know it as well as I do. thats why youre being so obstinate about it because you know going back to separate queues will most likely result in the death of group play.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 11:35 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Nah. You and I just have different priorities, and I'm tired of rehashing this with you. I only replied in the first place because new people entered the conversation.

Your only priority is to make the game more fun for you. That's fine and all, and I don't contest that splitting the queues makes your gameplay experience better.

I just think it comes at too high a price. More importantly, I'd rather have a clear direction in mind if PGI ever does come up with the budget to assign an Engineer to MWO.

[martian]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

That's literally the edge case for scenario 1. If the only 4 Tier 1 players in existence (as far as the MM is concerned) are in the same group, then congrats you have a stupid edge case that can't be solved.

So if you can't solve some scenario, then such scenario is "stupid" and not "relevant".

Good to know.

[Khobai]

Yes we have different priorities.

I want balanced games.

You want groups even if it means the games arnt balanced.

[Vlad Ward]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 11:32 AM, said:

So if you can't solve some scenario, then such scenario is "stupid" and not "relevant".

Good to know.

I mean, yes? It's not relevant to the very binary discussion of "Split queues" vs "Don't split queues" at least.

If splitting the queues doesn't fix the problem, and it doesn't, then it's really something that ought to be discussed when digging into the details of "What else we should do instead of splitting queues." Don't you think?

For example, how do we want to handle extreme clustering in groups? Is it fair to throw the group of Tier 1's in with a group of cadets to balance them out, so Team Average PSR lines up? Team Median PSR?

If the only 4 Tier 1's in existence are on a team, does that mean they get 8 Tier 3 teammates while the OpFor is 12 Tier 2's?

Does Team Average or Team Median balancing even work in MWO?

Edited by Vlad Ward, 07 June 2021 - 11:44 AM.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

If splitting the queues doesn't fix the problem, and it doesn't

split queues absolutely fixes the problem of groups in solo queue. because the groups arnt there anymore.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

For example, how do we want to handle extreme clustering in groups? Is it fair to throw the group of Tier 1's in with a group of cadets to balance them out, so Team Average PSR lines up? Team Median PSR?

thats the purpose of the tier system. it keeps the two extremes separated so tier 5s dont play tier 1s.. the tier system works perfectly fine in that capacity.

no one is saying do away with the tier system. just getting rid of groups from solo queue and going back to two separate queues.

if groups were so big of a problem they had to remove them from solo queue in 2014; whats changed since then that its now okay to have groups in solo queue? the answer is nothing.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

If the only 4 Tier 1's in existence are on a team, does that mean they get 8 Tier 3 teammates while the OpFor is 12 Tier 2's?

if you dont allow groups in the first place then the only 4 tier 1s in existence wont all be on the same team because youll be able to split them up and have two tier 1s on each team. And the two teams will be better balanced as a result.

Vlad Ward, on 07 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

Does Team Average or Team Median balancing even work in MWO?

it works better than allowing groups in solo queue.

solo vs solo was always way more balanced than mixed queue.

groups are the single biggest cause of imbalance in matchups right now.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 09:21 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 09:51 AM, said:

Maybe you forgot that this "mixed queue" existed years ago and it sucked so much that PGI had to split it in two: Solo Queue and Group Queue.

Actually, PGI had been building up MWO and had to update the UI and create a Launch Module, which was not just the frontend but the backend.

Relative time line - https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6409173

Game went from 4vs4 to 8vs8 to 12vs12, followed by 12-man vs12-man separate queue (edited 5man to 12man but no 11man) only which lasted a very short period of time before all groups were moved to that queue, because 12-man was still dropping into the normal queue with the solo/smaller groups, and they couldnt get the 2-4man group to drop into the normal queue. Then the CW.

April 2014.
https://mwomercs.com...and-team-sizes/

Quote

Now that you know some of the edge cases, let’s look at what we can do, but you need to keep in mind these problem areas.



Public/Single Player Queue

• Solo players
  
• 2-4 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now.

Group Queue

• Allows 2-10 man groups.
  
• Groups can only play against other groups.
  
• No solo players.
  
• Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
  
• Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
  
• Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

Private Matches

• 2-24 players by invite only.
  
• Can set game options/restrictions.
  
• Used for competitive X vs Y players

Now that you see what is planned and the edge cases surrounding implementation of a group only queue, we’re still deciding when this important feature would fit into our development schedule.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 June 2021 - 04:22 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

August 2014 post where player was complaining about a 70 ton difference. Of course 5 more clan mechs (remember, when introduced cXL ST destruction had no ill effect ) 2 Clan + 10 IS mechs vs 5 Clan + 7 IS mechs.. remember no CW/FP for several months and no in-game VOIP....

As a reminder, most believed that, the Group queue was the testing grounds for CW 12 vs 12.

https://mwomercs.com...-no-fun-at-all/




AND.. Sadly we had to get confirmation via TWITTER July 10th 2014..

https://mwomercs.com...olo-group-only/

https://mwomercs.com...y-solo-anymore/

https://twitter.com/...252642821718016

The biggest issue then and for the next few years was PGI also sticking to the 4x3 mech class per solo drop, only opening it up when a specific class of mechs went live (Buy a Mechpak ) while for the group queue, it was the smaller groups getting smacked around by the 12-man

And a fun read from July 6, 2014, this is prior to all groups being removed from the normal-soon-to-be-solo queue ... - https://mwomercs.com...olo-que-broken/

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 June 2021 - 08:23 PM.

[Leone]

martian, on 07 June 2021 - 11:10 AM, said:

No.

You missed "4-man Tier 1 well-coordinated premade on one side" that can not be split by the matchmaker between the both teams, so one team gets that premade and mix of T2 and T3 players, while the other team is just a random hodge-podge of T2 and T3 players.

And since the matchmaker can not split such group (and no change is in sight) and the MWO population is ... as is ..., you have got an unsolvable problem.

Literally the only advantage groups have is the oppourtunity for complimentary builds.

That is it. And it's a rare group I see doing that.

Your, 'Oh noes, four man premade that uses comms and works together and focus fires!' is not doing anything the other 20 folk in match cannot do. In fact, so many people complain about 'nascaring' because it's a strategy that alotta folk default to because they're all trying to stick together and get outta the line of fire.

~Leone.

[Khobai]

Leone, on 07 June 2021 - 09:32 PM, said:

Literally the only advantage groups have is the oppourtunity for complimentary builds.

That is it. And it's a rare group I see doing that.

Your, 'Oh noes, four man premade that uses comms and works together and focus fires!' is not doing anything the other 20 folk in match cannot do. In fact, so many people complain about 'nascaring' because it's a strategy that alotta folk default to because they're all trying to stick together and get outta the line of fire.

~Leone.

WRONG.

groups have many advantages over solo players. thats why solo players get absolutely slaughtered by groups in faction play. if what youre saying was even remotely true, and it obviously isnt, then pugs should at least have a chance against full groups in faction play since they can preplan. Yet they dont have a chance. ever.

1) groups can preplan and synergize builds ahead of time. their mech builds are generally metabuilds too.
2) groups usually consist of higher quality players in general that understand core concepts like focus fire, torso twisting, and armor sharing. while solos friendly fire me in the back.
3) groups are more likely to be on comms while in-game comms are still woefully underutilized by solo players even when they do use the in-game comms.
4) groups usually have a dropcaller they actually listen to. a lot of time solo yolos wont listen and weve all seen that assault everyone begs to come back just suicide itself into the enemy.
5) groups have developed tactics that work for them and practiced them extensively for example light lance swarm tactics where the whole group takes lights or fast mediums. or they all take linebackers. or if youre really unlucky: all urbies.
6) matchmaker absolutely sucks at balancing groups vs groups and groups vs solos which gives good groups a huge edge.
7) groups abuse syncdropping to surpass normal max group size. they are scummy enough to do this ive seen as many as 6 players from the same unit on one team.
8) groups have a lower incidence of afks within the group because that behavior is less tolerated in groups.

I could go on and on theres so many advantages to being in a group over being solo

Theres a reason why groups were taken out of solo queue in 2014 and group queue was created. Because groups were just as unbalanced in solo queue back then as they are now. Nothing has changed. Why would anyone think it would be any different then last time? Its not. This is literally 2014 all over again. When we fought extremely hard to get groups out of solo queue and finally succeeded just for PGI to repeat the same crap and not learn from their past mistakes again.

"but khobai theres not enough players to support two queues"

yeah thats BS theres more players now than when they made the decision to get rid of group queue and combine it with solo queue. theres plenty of players for two separate queues right now.

there should be a solo only queue and a mixed group/solo queue with a max group size of 4 and a max of one group per team. And the mixed queue should incentivize solo players by offering bigger rewards.

That way playing against groups is a choice not something youre forced into. And you get rewarded for doing it.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2021 - 11:38 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

WRONG.

one of the huge advantages groups have over solos is that theyve developed tactics that work for them and have practiced those tactics extensively as a group.

groups have many advantages over solo players. thats why solo players get absolutely slaughtered by groups in faction play. if what youre saying was even remotely true, and it obviously isnt, then pugs should at least have a chance against full groups in faction play. Yet they dont. ever.

1) groups can preplan and synergize builds ahead of time. their mech builds are generally metabuilds too.
2) groups usually consist of higher quality players in general. while solos friendly fire me in the back.
3) groups are more likely to be on comms while in-game comms are woefully underutilized by solo players.
4) groups usually have a dropcaller and they actually listen to the person giving orders. a lot of time solo yolos wont listen and weve all seen that assault everyone begs to come back just suicide.
5) groups have developed tactics that work for them and practiced them extensively. solos still nascar.
6) matchmaker absolutely sucks at balancing groups vs groups and groups vs solos.
7) groups abuse syncdropping to surpass normal max group size.
8) groups have a lower incidence of afks within the group because that behavior is less tolerated in groups.

I could go on and on theres so many advantages to being in a group over being solo

Except none of those point actually apply to any of the groups I run, and my groups tend to slaughter just about everyone. When I build a group off of ash's discord, they're all random pick up players, and everyone just plays whatever they want. No one is actually drop calling, we usually just talk about random things, while occasionally calling out enemy movements. This goes doubly so when it's a pure EmP 4 man. Most of the time we're not even focused on playing the game, and more joking about life, and shooting mechs while doing so (and yet we often can go undefeated over the course of 2 hours, without actually "tryharding")

It's true that our teamwork is well practiced over the course of many years of internal practices, and comp matches. However, in quick play, we don't even play our preferred weight classes most of the time, we're just playing whatever we feel like, and there's no set plan other than shoot things till they die.

Edited by Vxheous, 07 June 2021 - 11:24 PM.

[Leone]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

WRONG.

You are Wrong. Don't you love how saying a thing makes it so?

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

one of the huge advantages groups have over solos is that theyve developed tactics that work for them and have practiced those tactics extensively as a group.

Tactics like 'Move right', 'circle the enemy', and 'stick together'? Spoiler alert:

Spoiler

Everyone but the cadets have practiced this

There is nothing about dropping solo that prevents you from working with your team.

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

groups have many advantages over solo players. thats why solo players get absolutely slaughtered by groups in faction play. if what youre saying was even remotely true, and it obviously isnt, then pugs should at least have a chance against full groups in faction play. Yet they dont. ever.

Yes. We do. You might not. I have plenty. Anecdotal evidence can work both ways.

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

1) groups can preplan and synergize builds ahead of time
2) groups usually consist of higher quality players in general
3) groups are more likely to be on comms because in-game comms are highly underutilized by solo players.
4) groups usually have a dropcaller and they actually listen to the person giving orders.
5) groups have developed tactics that work for them and practiced them extensively.
6) matchmaker absolutely sucks at balancing groups vs groups and groups vs solos.
7) groups abuse syncdropping to surpass normal max group limits

I could go on and on theres so many advantages to being in a group over being solo

1.) Yup. I said so. That's the advantage.

2.) Umm, wait, what? First off no. Second, are you saying we should not allow skilled players in the game? I am beggining to get worried about your objectives here.

3.) Yes. More likely to utilize something everybody has access to. Not their fault if'n others choose not to. No advantage

4.) See 3. Also wrong, but if not, see three.

5.) Wait, didn't we already go over this? I feel like we did. Anyways, I've developed tactics that work for me and have practiced them extensively. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed into a mech anywhere near you? Seriously. This sentence alone is just... ugh

6.) Nothing to do with groups.

7.) No, sometimes people group up who play during the same times! Shocking, I know, but I joined my unit due to compatible gaming times. So yeah, sometimes I end up fighting Kell's commandos for a match afore we group up. Sure some folk might, but they've even odds they end up fighting each other as be on the same team. Are you... Are you saying groups shouldn't fight other groups now? I'm confused.

Anyways. No. There's one advantage. One. You labelled it first and yes it's an advantage. Always sad to get polar highlands with that one narc raven on the team asking who has missiles and finding out everyone's direct fire. I don't feel that we should punish everybody just because the most folk cannot overlap ecm coverage.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 08 June 2021 - 12:02 AM.