212 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 02 June 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

1 is vastly overblown. I ran a comp team for years and at its peak I couldn't tell you much about our starting lineup beyond "X is really good in Lights" or "Y gets frustrated and starts putting in less effort if he can't run Mediums at least once a week." This voodoo magic telepathy nonsense is mostly headcanon.

its not overblown at all. ive played with groups where I knew exactly where the other group members would be intuitively without even having to look at the map. because its how we always played together and we learned eachothers playstyles.

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2 shouldn't matter. MWO has integrated voice chat. Everyone has the same opportunities. Unless you're saying having a group around actively harms your team because they're only talking in their private chat, in which case that's equally likely to happen to either team.

and yet groups still often opt to use teamspeak over integrated voice chat. integrated voice chat is heavily underutilized in MWO. it always has been. thats a fact.

not all groups use integrated voice chat just because they can. and no its not equally likely to happen to either team because we know matchmaker doesnt work and doesnt put equal groups on both teams. it often puts a good group on one team and a bad group on the other team. And good groups are more likely to communicate with their team than bad groups.

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3 was already addressed. We know there's compression at the top. We know the matchmaker doesn't handle team layouts as well as it could. This all needs to be fixed anyway. People will still be unhappy with separate queues because the matchmaker will still be a problem.

its cute you still think it can be fixed. the games been out how many years? 8? it is not getting fixed.

this is why we need two separate queues. because ITS NOT GETTING FIXED. matchmaker will never work satisfactorily enough to balance groups in solo queue.

the only way to resolve the problem while keeping everyone reasonably happy is two separate queues. that has always been the solution.

they just have to find a way to prevent group queue from becoming a total cesspool again so groups wont beg PGI to stick them in solo queue again so they can beat up on solo players to feel good about themselves. Maybe having a 12v12 solo queue and an 8v8 mixed queue could work I dunno.

they need to at least try fix the past problems with group queue and faction play instead of allowing the same problems that killed those gamemodes infect solo queue too. again its not a coincidence that group queue, faction play, and competitive play have all died while solo queue thrived (at least until they added groups to solo queue and the quality of matches went down). And if theyre unable to fix those problems they probably just need to get rid of groups entirely and accept that the group aspect of the game has reached its inevitable end. Otherwise this game is gonna be dead again as soon as the influx of new players due to covid dies down.

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2021 - 01:39 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Just flip the switch that's hidden somewhere in the coding and bring back the Group QP and Solo QP options. Groups can go up against other groups and enjoy their matches, solos play other solos and they get to enjoy their matches . . . kind of simple really.

I would prefer to see FP back in action with an 8+4 option of 8 from a premade or unit basis plus 4 from solo to allow them the opportunity to learn what is in my mind, the best part of the game without being farmed mercilessly and driven away from it. Yes, this means experienced players have to accept a degree of responsibility in nurturing those new to FP (not new to the game, FP is the wrong environment for the complete new pilot) players and potentially opens up a breeding ground for new unit players to be recruited from.

The problem has never been the mode but how players behave in any particular mode.

[Gagis]

PeppaPig, on 03 June 2021 - 01:13 AM, said:

The problem has never been the mode but how players behave in any particular mode.

The problem with Group Queue was always the matchmaker. Any group between 2 and 10 members and 12 members could join the queue.

While queuing there is no way to interact with the game's user interface, and there is no indication about whether there is anyone else in the queue.

Lets say you have a group of 5 players and join the queue. You can wait for any amount of time having no idea if there is anyone else doing the same.

Lets say a group of 6 joins the queue too. 5 and 6 does not add up to 12. Queue continues.

Maybe a group of 3 joins too. Still does not add up.

But hey, there's another group of 8 now!. Still no 12+12

Any amount of time may have passed by now, with no one having any idea if anything might be happening or not. But hey! There is finally a group of 4 in the queue too. This adds up to 4+8 = 12 but they don't have an opposing team yet.

Finally one more group of 3 players shows up! 4+8=12 and 3+3+6=12! WE HAVE A MATCH! Maybe it only took an hour to happen! Assuming none of the groups in the queue had given up and quit playing MWO forever in the time it took for this to happen.

But wait... that original group of 5 players. They are sitll queueing, with no idea if there will ever be a match for them. The numbers just did not add up in a way to make them fit to a team.

This is why players who have friends quit the game and group queue died. Being able to launch into the group queue solo to make groups of 1 and groups of 11 players possible would have made a HUGE difference. 8v8 with groups ranging from 1 to 8 would be even better. Soup queue was better than nothing, since playing with friends is the best part of any game.

Edited by Gagis, 03 June 2021 - 01:29 AM.

[Khobai]

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Lets say a group of 6 joins the queue too. 5 and 6 does not add up to 12. Queue continues.

I thought they solved that by only allowing group sizes that were multiples of 4? or was it factors of 12?

I know for a while they didnt allow groups of particular sizes to launch specifically to help matchmaker find multiple groups with players that added upto 12.

I dont believe that was ever really the issue with group queue anyway. I think the bigger problem with group queue is that the quality of the matches tanked so badly it was almost unplayable and people left group queue which made it harder to find matches. matchmaker was completely incapable of producing fun and balances matches that didnt result in one team getting completely rolled over.

Im not really sure how youd fix that problem since a working matchmaker is never going to happen.

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2021 - 01:53 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

8vs8 ...bad idea ...1x DC/1xAFK/1xLeroy Jenkins/1xLRM or Brawl Trollbuild =4vs 8
8vs8,12vs12 or 100vs100 ,with all the killthinking Egoplayers thats not can play with a Team is each concept of Mulztiplaying a fail , praise the Good,thats we not have the Cheater Scene like Cod or other FPS Games, many to stupid and narcisstic to plays Multiplayer Games for others a her own KD State.

CoD MW -Koop.in 70 from 100 Games the Team is dead in the first wave, while 1 Player goes to DC and player 2 run for fast kills in the Next big Enemy group or the First juggernaut and hopes thats the 2 other reanimeted him ,and when the mates its doing ,the Ego-lemming do it again, in each Round ...ever ,and ever to earn fast Killpoints to become faster the Juggernaut item as the others.
Many of the Smartphone RAID Generation to stupid for Multiplayer Games,and the other used Cheats or learning thats plays with humans is a pain and goes to ARMA or RPG games.

Its not the Tonnage,the MM,8vs8or 12vs12...the Problem is the Player Pool and the behaviour of it,imported from othe FPS ...fast kills alone for Points and f*** the other Mates ,im self the Hero

and in each Match you becomes new Leroy Jenkins and Trollfighters to your Side

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 03 June 2021 - 02:26 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Gagis, on 03 June 2021 - 01:26 AM, said:

The problem with Group Queue was always the matchmaker. Any group between 2 and 10 members and 12 members could join the queue.

While queuing there is no way to interact with the game's user interface, and there is no indication about whether there is anyone else in the queue.

Lets say you have a group of 5 players and join the queue. You can wait for any amount of time having no idea if there is anyone else doing the same.

Lets say a group of 6 joins the queue too. 5 and 6 does not add up to 12. Queue continues.

Maybe a group of 3 joins too. Still does not add up.

But hey, there's another group of 8 now!. Still no 12+12

Any amount of time may have passed by now, with no one having any idea if anything might be happening or not. But hey! There is finally a group of 4 in the queue too. This adds up to 4+8 = 12 but they don't have an opposing team yet.

Finally one more group of 3 players shows up! 4+8=12 and 3+3+6=12! WE HAVE A MATCH! Maybe it only took an hour to happen! Assuming none of the groups in the queue had given up and quit playing MWO forever in the time it took for this to happen.

But wait... that original group of 5 players. They are sitll queueing, with no idea if there will ever be a match for them. The numbers just did not add up in a way to make them fit to a team.

This is why players who have friends quit the game and group queue died. Being able to launch into the group queue solo to make groups of 1 and groups of 11 players possible would have made a HUGE difference. 8v8 with groups ranging from 1 to 8 would be even better. Soup queue was better than nothing, since playing with friends is the best part of any game.

Fully understand what you are talking about - has absolutely nothing to do with my statement - carry on

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 03 June 2021 - 01:10 AM, said:

its not overblown at all. ive played with groups where I knew exactly where the other group members would be intuitively without even having to look at the map. because its how we always played together and we learned eachothers playstyles.

Maybe you're actually a telepath but I'd lean towards confirmation bias at the moment. Or are you literally saying "Decent players will move towards decent positions on the map and I know these are decent players while strangers are a crapshoot", in which case . . .

Khobai, on 03 June 2021 - 01:10 AM, said:

and yet groups still often opt to use teamspeak over integrated voice chat. integrated voice chat is heavily underutilized in MWO. it always has been. thats a fact.

not all groups use integrated voice chat just because they can. and no its not equally likely to happen to either team because we know matchmaker doesnt work and doesnt put equal groups on both teams. it often puts a good group on one team and a bad group on the other team. And good groups are more likely to communicate with their team than bad groups.

Game design provides equal opportunity. It can't force people to take advantage of tools. If PSR wasn't capped and population was infinite, you'd find that people who do use VOIP effectively go up in tier while shy guys sink a bit until only players with VOIP play against other players with VOIP and vice versa.

Khobai, on 03 June 2021 - 01:10 AM, said:

its cute you still think it can be fixed. the games been out how many years? 8? it is not getting fixed.

this is why we need two separate queues. because ITS NOT GETTING FIXED. matchmaker will never work satisfactorily enough to balance groups in solo queue.

the only way to resolve the problem while keeping everyone reasonably happy is two separate queues. that has always been the solution.

This doesn't line up with

Khobai, on 03 June 2021 - 01:10 AM, said:

they just have to find a way to prevent group queue from becoming a total cesspool again so groups wont beg PGI to stick them in solo queue again so they can beat up on solo players to feel good about themselves. Maybe having a 12v12 solo queue and an 8v8 mixed queue could work I dunno.

The biggest issue with Group Queue was never "Groups are toxic." It was "Population is so low that the Matchmaker which was already barely functional in soup queue didn't bother any more." Groups are inherently harder to match than individual players - NOT because of telepath psycho-frame space magic, but because groups are fixed units with varying PSR that the matchmaker isn't allowed to break up. The current MM uses a raw average for Group PSR, but there are better ways to do this.

The population to match quality ratio for Group Queues skews a lot higher than the same ratio for Solo or Soup queues. As a result, even if Group Queue was 50% of the population at any given time, match quality would still be much lower in a Group Queue because the Matchmaker has less granular options to build teams. It's a mathematical/computational problem, NOT a video game problem or a player problem.

Even if we do understand and accept that a Solo Queue has higher match quality than a Soup Queue (it DOES and there's no arguing that), it's not worth the tradeoff because "Group Queue" is an inherently broken concept that requires tens of thousands more players in the population to even start functioning at a reasonable level.

Some people are content to say "I don't care if what I want ruins other people's game experience. I want it anyway." It's not good for the game, though.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 June 2021 - 06:45 AM.

[Khobai]

it lines up perfectly. let me spell it out for you.

you cant fix the problem of groups vs solos because the matchmaker will NEVER be fixed

having two separate queues will get groups out of solo queue. thats all I want. i really dont care where the groups go as long as theyre out of solo queue.

but they can (and should) still try to fix group queue if at all possible but we all know its basically unfixable without a working matchmaker and will in all likelihood fail again.

at which point they need to just give up and remove groups from the game rather than sticking them back in solo queue again. because as long as the groups are out of solo queue its all good. thats all that matters.

yeah I get that people want to play with their friends. But if its at expense of other players It shouldnt be allowed. Not having a working matchmaker means that allowing groups will always be at the expense of solo players' enjoyment of the game.

if you cant balance something it shouldnt exist. And matchmaker has NEVER been able to balance groups and NEVER will be able to. Its pretty much a futile pursuit. the demise of any gamemode with groups is a foregone conclusion. other people just havent realized that yet.

But even so im not discounting the possibility that group queue could be fixable in some unforeseen way. There might be some solution no ones thought of. I think its worth at least exploring different ideas. And when those ideas fail delete groups forever

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2021 - 08:05 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

yeah I get that people want to play by themselves. But if its at expense of other players It shouldn't be allowed. Not having a working matchmaker means that splitting queues will always be at the expense of team players' enjoyment of the game.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 June 2021 - 08:00 AM.

[Nightbird]

Vlad Ward, on 03 June 2021 - 08:00 AM, said:

yeah I get that people want to play by themselves. But if its at expense of other players It shouldn't be allowed. Not having a working matchmaker means that splitting queues will always be at the expense of team players' enjoyment of the game.

Keeping it together at the expense of solo players is OK then?

Edited by Nightbird, 03 June 2021 - 08:05 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 03 June 2021 - 08:04 AM, said:

Keeping it together at the expense of solo players is OK then?

Everybody loses in the binary scenario presented (ie one where actually fixing the MM or adding basic core functionality to the game is off the table).

The question is how many people are losing and to what degree.

Soup queue results in more people losing relatively little. Split queue results in a smaller number of people losing a lot more.

In this case, I believe 'sharing the pain' is the better of two bad options for the health of the game.

[Leone]

Actually split queues result in everybody losing out since even in the more common queue wait times'll go up since you've pulled some folk from it. We already gotta wait far too long from launch to match. No need to add more time on it. If I wanna wait, I'll be launching in Faction Warfare.

~Leone.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

you will not fight with Groups ....simple Solution =play MW5 without Coop, each single Player in the team is with the other Mates a Group ,thats is Multiplayer.What the next Wish? deleted the Players with more Playtime and Experience, the older or younger Players, the Players with Handycaps ?

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 03 June 2021 - 08:38 AM, said:

Soup queue results in more people losing relatively little. Split queue results in a smaller number of people losing a lot more.

In this case, I believe 'sharing the pain' is the better of two bad options for the health of the game.

And I believe having two separate queues makes far more sense.

Have a solo only queue that doesnt "share the pain" and have combined group/solo queue. With all the same rules imposed on groups that currently exist.

And increase the rewards for the combined group/solo queue so solos are incentivized (but not forced) to join it.

Why is this approach superior? Because youre not taking agency away from players by forcing them to play against groups if they dont want to. And youre rewarding solo players extra if they do opt to play against groups.

Quote

Everybody loses in the binary scenario presented (ie one where actually fixing the MM or adding basic core functionality to the game is off the table).

No. everyone loses with your approach. your approach is communism. you want everyone to suffer for the good of the state. "share the pain" lmao. gtfo of here with that.

where having two separate queues is like having one queue for capitalism and one queue for communism but people at least get a choice between the two. furthermore by increasing the rewards in the combined queue it would help make the "shared pain" of the combined group/solo queue a bit easier to swallow for those solo players who do opt to play in it.

two separate queues is unquestionably better with regard to player agency and giving players the choice whether they want to play against groups or not. You are not forcing people to play against groups and thats righteous and good.

Forcing solo players to play against groups is ****ty and evil. It should never have even been considered. PGI was just somewhere between desperation and not caring thats why they agreed to it. Shame on them.

Furthermore with regard to a combined group/solo queue. The laws of darwinism should apply. If it fails then it should go extinct along with groups. Groups should not be artificially kept alive on life support at the expense of solo queue. Again forcing solo players to play against groups is ****ty. Dont do it.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2021 - 04:04 AM.

[Curccu]

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

faction play was always terrible and doomed to fail. just like solaris.

Well just your opinion. FP back when it was called CW was awesome as was group queue with enough population matches were good and challenging.

FP always had huge issue not having matchmaker, seal clubbing gets very boring very fast and even when you know there are very good teams on opposing side its just random if you get them or not.

Solaris is pretty good but its matchmaker/multi queue system sucks so bad.

and btw group queue died because there wasn't enough players to maintain it, which coincidentally happened a bit after Russ said that they are gonna stop developing/updating MWO and 100% focus on MW5.

[Scout Derek]

Curccu, on 04 June 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well just your opinion. FP back when it was called CW was awesome as was group queue with enough population matches were good and challenging.

FP always had huge issue not having matchmaker, seal clubbing gets very boring very fast and even when you know there are very good teams on opposing side its just random if you get them or not.

how would FP even have a MM; it's designed to put premades vs premades together, it literally says it in the popup when you first decide to click on it. Unless you think everything should cater to anyone like it's some kind of elder scrolls game where you run around and become the guild leader of every faction in the game.

[Khobai]

Curccu, on 04 June 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well just your opinion. FP back when it was called CW was awesome as was group queue with enough population matches were good and challenging.

FP always had huge issue not having matchmaker, seal clubbing gets very boring very fast and even when you know there are very good teams on opposing side its just random if you get them or not.

Solaris is pretty good but its matchmaker/multi queue system sucks so bad.

and btw group queue died because there wasn't enough players to maintain it, which coincidentally happened a bit after Russ said that they are gonna stop developing/updating MWO and 100% focus on MW5.

group queue and faction play both died because they didnt have good matchmakers. thats the whole reason why people stopped playing them. because people can only get rolled so many times before enough is enough and they quit.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 04 June 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

group queue and faction play both died because they didnt have good matchmakers. thats the whole reason why people stopped playing them. because people can only get rolled so many times before enough is enough and they quit.

Apropos, does anyone have the date of when the separate Group Queue (separate from the solo queue) was first instituted?

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 04 June 2021 - 03:41 AM, said:

Why is this approach superior? Because youre not taking agency away from players by forcing them to play against groups if they dont want to. And youre rewarding solo players extra if they do opt to play against groups.

<sarcasm>I'd like a queue that lets me only play against people under the age of 40. I'm tired of playing with geezers with poor hand-eye coordination, slow reflexes, and a sense of humor better left in 1950's locker rooms.</sarcasm>

Khobai, on 04 June 2021 - 03:41 AM, said:

No. everyone loses with your approach. your approach is communism. you want everyone to suffer for the good of the state. "share the pain" lmao. gtfo of here with that.

Bruh, I'm a rabid capitalist. I'm also a utilitarian. Segmenting the population is dumb and bad and hurts everyone. The only cogent counterargument is that groups are currently OP. The only question is which is actively worse for the game as a whole: OP groups or split queues.

You have, like, your opinion, man. That's fine. Throw it up there on the board. Your vote is counted. That doesn't mean it's the right answer.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 04 June 2021 - 08:47 AM.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 04 June 2021 - 08:46 AM, said:

<sarcasm>I'd like a queue that lets me only play against people under the age of 40. I'm tired of playing with geezers with poor hand-eye coordination, slow reflexes, and a sense of humor better left in 1950's locker rooms.</sarcasm>

Bruh, I'm a rabid capitalist. I'm also a utilitarian. Segmenting the population is dumb and bad and hurts everyone. The only cogent counterargument is that groups are currently OP. The only question is which is actively worse for the game as a whole: OP groups or split queues.

You have, like, your opinion, man. That's fine. Throw it up there on the board. Your vote is counted. That doesn't mean it's the right answer.

its not really my opinion though. its a fact that groups have a terrible track record in MWO. every gamemode thats had groups in it has failed miserably. the current state of those gamemodes speaks for itself.

the fact you want to continue to support groups despite their obvious toxicity and destructiveness to every gamemode thats featured groups is completely asinine and selfish.

and yet somehow you think its gonna be different this time? give me a break. you think forcing solo players to play against groups is somehow beneficial for the game? no. because thats the exact thing that caused the other gamemodes to fail. players left those other gamemodes specifically because they didnt want to play against groups. they were fed up with it.

theres a direct correlation between win/loss ratio and player happiness. if players dont win the expected number of games their happiness goes down and theyre more likely to quit. groups skew the expected win/loss ratio and cause lower player happiness. Thats why players quit when theyre forced to play against groups and why all those group gamemodes failed so badly.

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The only question is which is actively worse for the game as a whole: OP groups or split queues.

Solo players make up the vast majority of players in MWO, at least 90%. Groups are the minority. Why do you want to keep the minority happy at the expense of the majority? That is decidedly not utilitarian and you just claimed to be a utilitarian. Utilitarianism seeks to keep the majority happy at the expense of the minority because thats for the greatest good.

The real question is what will keep solo players happier and retain them longer. Forcing them to play against groups? Or giving them the choice to play against groups? We both know the answer to that.

Having separate queues is absolutely the best thing for the game.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2021 - 09:51 AM.