212 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

There's already a thread to discuss this issue, if you actually want to be heard I suggest posting there, because this thread will be ignored.

MWO: Forums - Mechwarrior Online 2021: Modes (mwomercs.com)

[Tarl Cabot]

Gotta love those Rose colored glasses.

12 vs 12 went live in August 2013, thus 8 vs 8 was played with a IS mechs, and a lot less of them. Clans went live Summer 2014 followed by CW Dec 2014.

When it was 8 vs 8, it was a different era altogether, still with the Soup queue for parts of it...

Have those wanting 8 vs 8 actually watched the Competition matches? Both teams, working together and a majority of those matches ended in stomps. And most were done with Clan mechs except for when that season it was only IS mechs...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 June 2021 - 05:14 AM.

[Khobai]

Tarl Cabot, on 02 June 2021 - 05:09 AM, said:

Have those wanting 8 vs 8 actually watched the Competition matches? Both teams, working together and a majority of those matches ended in stomps. And most were done with Clan mechs except for when that season it was only IS mechs...

exactly groups are the problem.

when one group is significantly better than another group it causes stomps.

hence if there are no groups on either team stomps are less likely to happen.

I also remember 8v8 when it didnt allow groups at all. only solo players. thats how it should be.

competitive MWO was also pretty much the most banal thing ever. they just dropped dozens of arties back and forth while sniping eachother with ac2s/ac5s/ppcs/gauss while all using the same handful of exactly the same meta mechs. BORING. Zzzzzzzz.

every gamemode thats ever had groups in it has failed. group queue failed. faction warfare failed. competitive mwo failed. thats not a coincidence.

why are we still propping up group play on life support? enough is enough. just make solo queue for solos. the group play ship sailed and sank a long time ago.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 05:55 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

8v8 modes are planned in 4th quarter of this year. What does it mean i dont know. I pray it means qp turns into solo groupless 8v8 mode and 12 v 12 becomes fp exclusive mode.

[swordburden]

I think there should be more players versus actually. But since match making takes forever in "quick play" yes quick play not quick match, oops; you might be right that the max player count be lowered back to what it was.

[Scout Derek]

PurplePuke, on 01 June 2021 - 11:38 AM, said:

Am I the only one reading these endless 8v8 threads who notices the critical logic flaws in the arguments? I can't be, can I?

And, what exactly, might that critical logic flaws may be?

Tarl Cabot, on 02 June 2021 - 05:09 AM, said:

Gotta love those Rose colored glasses.

12 vs 12 went live in August 2013, thus 8 vs 8 was played with a IS mechs, and a lot less of them. Clans went live Summer 2014 followed by CW Dec 2014.

When it was 8 vs 8, it was a different era altogether, still with the Soup queue for parts of it...

Have those wanting 8 vs 8 actually watched the Competition matches? Both teams, working together and a majority of those matches ended in stomps. And most were done with Clan mechs except for when that season it was only IS mechs...

If 8v8 was introduced, groups would definitely be dissolved from solo quickplay queues, and thus repopulate the group queue as a whole.

I dont think tech bases really mattered, rather the fact that weapons and mech availability and viable wise have been since changed, and still work in a 8v8 environment, depending on how you want to go about it.

[Saved By The Bell]

Elite players are farming noobs in groups (real groups). So 8X8 just made all more terrible.

Noobs do groups too, but it doesn't work, you know why.

[Grus]

No to 8v8.

[justcallme A S H]

KodiakGW, on 01 June 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...since-feb-2020/

There were numerous suggestions about 8v8 queues that were soundly rejected. Plus suggestions were made in other threads that were closed down, and refenced back to that thread.

I mean linking to a long winded thread, where many of the posts flatly refute what you are saying... Proves.. what?

KodiakGW, on 01 June 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

You say you support 8v8 group queue, with solo opt in. But, if solos do not want to opt in, then what queue do they go into?

If they do not OPT-in, they sit in SoloQ?

Is that, truly, a hard concept to understand? Come on man, you are posting absolute nonsense now and you have to know that.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 05:36 AM, said:

exactly groups are the problem.

every gamemode thats ever had groups in it has failed. group queue failed. faction warfare failed. competitive mwo failed. thats not a coincidence.

why are we still propping up group play on life support?

Khobai, on 01 June 2021 - 11:09 PM, said:

amusingly the biggest problem with FP is the reason FP was created: groups. groups destroy everything in MWO. they destroyed group queue and FP. now theyre screwing up solo queue too.

every single gamemode thats allowed groups or groups vs solos has turned into a cesspool. thats not a coincidence. groups vs solos is inherently toxic in MWO because nobody likes getting rolled constantly.

• I hate groups.
  
• I hate groups.
  
• I hate groups.

The same rhetoric you have claimed and spread on the forums here for years.


And yet the best time MWO had - were when groups were strongest.
The worst - when groups and units were annihilated.

Yet here we are where you - a member of a unit/group - talking about how bad they are!?!?!?!?!?

A person true to their word, that is strictly anti-social in nature, would not be socialising or playing in a unit if they were "so against" group and social game-play.

Please give everyone a spell of this contrarian nonsense. It was actually great for the past 9 months where this attitude was not being spread amongst the pages. Lets go back there.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 June 2021 - 11:49 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2021 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think they meant 12vs12 solos only queue, plus a 8vs8 group queue that solos can opt into if they want to.

I'm all for that, get groups out away from the solos.

I'd vastly prefer 12v12 Unranked and 8v8 Ranked. Partitioning the population based on grouping is and always has been a dumb, no good, very bad band-aid for poor design choices and unfinished implementations.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 June 2021 - 12:34 PM.

[KodiakGW]

justcallme A S H, on 02 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

I mean linking to a long winded thread, where many of the posts flatly refute what you are saying... Proves.. what?

Not worth arguing anymore if you are going to ignore the ones that are.

justcallme A S H, on 02 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

If they do not OPT-in, they sit in SoloQ?

Noticed you cut out the part that I said splitting the queues has been flatly rejected. Are you saying that it now is not?

justcallme A S H, on 02 June 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

Is that, truly, a hard concept to understand? Come on man, you are posting absolute nonsense now and you have to know that.

OK

[Khobai]

Quote

• I hate groups.
  
• I hate groups.
  
• I hate groups.

The same rhetoric you have claimed and spread on the forums here for years.
































And yet the best time MWO had - were when groups were strongest.
The worst - when groups and units were annihilated.

no the best time MWO had is when groups werent in solo queue.

groups destroyed every other gamemode they were in. group queue. faction play. competitive play. they all died while solo queue thrived.

deny it all you want but the gamestate speaks for itself. groups destroyed their own gamemodes and now have to be propped up by solo queue.

and I dont hate groups existing. I just hate groups in solo queue. as far as im concerned, groups can continue to exist and do whatever they want as long as they do it outside of solo queue. because as long as its outside of solo queue the group vs group toxicity and self destruction is no longer my concern.

if I dont want to play against groups why should I be forced to?

similarly if you want to play in groups with your friends you should be allowed to.

thats why two queues are absolutely necessary. there is no way around that. and now that the game has a higher population it can support two queues again.

its not rhetoric at all. I am 100% right. And we both know it. two separate queues is the only solution that will appease everyone.

I have no problem with having both a 12v12 solo queue and an 8v8 mixed queue for groups/solos.

Vlad Ward, on 02 June 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Partitioning the population based on grouping is and always has been a dumb, no good, very bad band-aid for poor design choices and unfinished implementations.

No. The only way groups in solo queue could ever work is if we had a matchmaker that actually balanced the teams properly. We do not have that.

When you dont have a working matchmaker then separating groups and solos into two different queues is the ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE.

Combining group queue and solo queue ranks up there as one of the absolute worst decisions PGI has ever made. You dont try to save the toxic elements of your game by introducing them to the only part of your game thats thriving. Thats exactly how you lose players. MWO was just fortunate that covid came along and steam has record high player numbers which has breathed a second life into the game. But if PGI doesnt fix the problem of groups in solo queue the game will inevitably end up exactly how it was before.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 02:57 PM.

[grim spider]

Yep. You are on the money 100%, with a bullseye. The game needs to go to 8v8 so that there ARE less people.

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

no the best time MWO had is when groups werent in solo queue.

groups destroyed every other gamemode they were in. group queue. faction play. competitive play. they all died while solo queue thrived.

deny it all you want but the gamestate speaks for itself. groups destroyed their own gamemodes and now have to be propped up by solo queue.

and I dont hate groups. I just hate groups in solo queue. as far as im concerned, groups can continue to exist and do whatever they want as long as they do it outside of solo queue.

if I dont want to play against groups why should I be forced to?

similarly if you want to play in groups with your friends you should be allowed to.

thats why two queues are absolutely necessary. there is no way around that. and now that the game has a higher population it can support two queues again.

its not rhetoric at all. I am 100% right. And we both know it.

That's not entirely accurate. Faction Play didn't die because groups were playing there. Faction Play died because groups left after PGI killed the Unit/Group metagame.

Wanting or not wanting to play against groups on its own isn't really something the community or design/dev teams should care about. It's like "not wanting to play against people over 40." Do some people hold that opinion? Idk, maybe. Do I care? No.

Groups having a disproportionate gameplay advantage over players who are not in groups is a problem. It's a serious problem. It needs to be fixed, not shoved under the rug by splitting the queues. There was a point in time when only grouped players had VOIP. It was literally not in the base game. The appropriate solution was, of course, to add VOIP to the base game.

Currently, there are two distinct advantages to playing in a group that have a negative impact on overall gameplay:

• Grouped players are able to coordinate their 'Mechs and Loadouts prior to a match, resulting in synergistic comps.
  
• Grouped players are PSR Averaged by the MM, resulting in undesirable edge cases when people with disparate PSR values group together.

The solution to Problem 1 is simple: Pre-Game Lobbies. We already have the basic structure. The only thing we're missing is the ability to use the 'Select Mech' interface in the lobby.

The solution to Problem 2 requires an engineering overhaul to the Matchmaker. Frankly, the game needs that anyway.

Solve Problem 1 and Problem 2 and you eliminate the most significant gameplay advantages available to groups. Without a significant gameplay advantage, grouping vs dropping solo becomes a personal/fun preference and absolutely no one else's business.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 June 2021 - 02:46 PM.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 02 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

That's not entirely accurate. Faction Play didn't die because groups were playing there. Faction Play died because groups left after PGI killed the Unit/Group metagame.

Wanting or not wanting to play against groups on its own isn't really something the community or design/dev teams should care about. It's like "not wanting to play against people over 40." Do some people hold that opinion? Idk, maybe. Do I care? No.

Groups having a disproportionate gameplay advantage over players who are not in groups is a problem. It's a serious problem. It needs to be fixed, not shoved under the rug by splitting the queues. There was a point in time when only grouped players had VOIP. It was literally not in the base game. The appropriate solution was, of course, to add VOIP to the base game.

Currently, there are two distinct advantages to playing in a group that have a negative impact on overall gameplay:

• Grouped players are able to coordinate their 'Mechs and Loadouts prior to a match, resulting in synergistic comps.
  
• Grouped players are PSR Averaged by the MM, resulting in undesirable edge cases when people with disparate PSR values group together.

The solution to Problem 1 is simple: Pre-Game Lobbies. We already have the basic structure. The only thing we're missing is the ability to use the 'Select Mech' interface in the lobby.














The solution to Problem 2 requires an engineering overhaul to the Matchmaker. Frankly, the game needs that anyway.

Solve Problem 1 and Problem 2 and you eliminate the most significant gameplay advantages available to groups. Without a significant gameplay advantage, grouping vs dropping solo becomes a personal/fun preference and absolutely no one else's business.

what unit/group metagame? lmao. faction play was always terrible and doomed to fail. just like solaris.

Quote

Currently, there are two distinct advantages to playing in a group that have a negative impact on overall gameplay:

• Grouped players are able to coordinate their 'Mechs and Loadouts prior to a match, resulting in synergistic comps.
  
• Grouped players are PSR Averaged by the MM, resulting in undesirable edge cases when people with disparate PSR values group together.

Theres more distinct advantages than that.

1) they intuitively know how the other players in the group will play
2) theyre far more likely to be on voice chat with their own groups
3) a good group will inherently win more matches than they lose due to the awful matchmaker. because theres huge disparity in player skill within tiers, especially tier 1. Its entirely possible to have two tier 1 groups with one of the groups being vastly superior in skill to the other despite them both being the same tier. tiers do not accurately reflect player skill.

Quote

The solution to Problem 2 requires an engineering overhaul to the Matchmaker. Frankly, the game needs that anyway.

Duh. But that will never happen. If the matchmaker doesnt work by now it never will.

Thats why two separate queues is the only real solution.

Im fine with having pregame lobbies though I think thats a good idea. You should also be able to pick your mech after you know what the map is anyway because certain mechs are virtually unplayable on certain maps with the current spawn locations.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 03:18 PM.

[Leone]

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

if I dont want to play against groups why should I be forced to?

You aren't. We've had Solaris 7 for a while now. If you wanna duel, we've a queue for that. (Well, seven queues actually,) but I hate to break it to you, but if you drop in quickplay you will end up facing twelve mechs all on the same team. In the same 'group' as it were. They've comms, they share radar, they can and will work together.

~Leone.

[Khobai]

Leone, on 02 June 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

You aren't. We've had Solaris 7 for a while now. If you wanna duel, we've a queue for that. (Well, seven queues actually,) but I hate to break it to you, but if you drop in quickplay you will end up facing twelve mechs all on the same team. In the same 'group' as it were. They've comms, they share radar, they can and will work together.

~Leone.

if what you were saying was even remotely true then solo players should never get rolled by group players. and yet they do.

there is an inherent difference between players that play together in a group and players that play solo.

and solaris is garbage. who even plays that ****? not me. I wanted solaris to be an 8 player free for all but PGI couldnt figure out how to code more than a red and a blue team lmao.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 03:23 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

what unit/group metagame? lmao. faction play was always terrible and doomed to fail. just like solaris.

FP didn't die with a whisper. It went out with a bang after PGI ripped planetary conquest out of the game. You know, the whole point to playing the mode for units.

Khobai, on 02 June 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

Theres more distinct advantages than that.

1) they intuitively know how the other players in the group will play
2) theyre far more likely to be on voice chat with their own groups
3) a good group will inherently win more matches than they lose due to the awful matchmaker. because theres huge disparity in player skill within tiers, especially tier 1. Its entirely possible to have two tier 1 groups with one of the groups being vastly superior in skill to the other despite them both being the same tier. tiers do not accurately reflect player skill.

1 is vastly overblown. I ran a comp team for years and at its peak I couldn't tell you much about our starting lineup beyond "X is really good in Lights" or "Y gets frustrated and starts putting in less effort if he can't run Mediums at least once a week." This voodoo magic telepathy nonsense is mostly headcanon.

2 shouldn't matter. MWO has integrated voice chat. Everyone has the same opportunities. Unless you're saying having a group around actively harms your team because they're only talking in their private chat, in which case that's equally likely to happen to either team.

3 was already addressed. We know there's compression at the top. We know the matchmaker doesn't handle team layouts as well as it could. This all needs to be fixed anyway. People will still be unhappy with separate queues because the matchmaker will still be a problem.

[MechB Kotare]

Lockheed_, on 02 June 2021 - 10:20 AM, said:

is that a fact?
Does anybody know if this will affect QP as well?

Jesus **** i only quote what 2021 roadmap says. Read the ******* road map.