212 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

KodiakGW said:

1623250865[/url]' post='6409852']
So it has now become "population is still to low for us to gather information, which only PGI has, that they won't provide to make a decision." Which brings us back to my question:

When will population be large enough? Large enough to ask PGI to provide the information needed to make the informed decision.

I for one have come to think soup queue (which I previously expected to kill the game within a few months of it being introduced) really isn’t that bad. Not great, but not bad. While I still want want GQ revived, but in the 8v8 with solo opt in format that many have proposed, I don’t honestly think we will ever have the population to make it happen as a long term separate queue. That being said, and I have no idea how burdensome this would be programming or patch-wise, I would like to see a special event now and again where such a GQ is opened up or provided every few months for a week or even just a weekend. I think that sort of thing would go a long way to providing data, providing an occasional respite to the “groups are killing the solo queue” crowd, and give those of us who want to drop as groups again an occasional fix.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 June 2021 - 07:25 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

KodiakGW, on 09 June 2021 - 07:01 AM, said:

So it has now become 'population is still to low for us to gather information, which only PGI has, that they won't provide to make a decision.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that aside from you.

From what I can kinda see you just don't understand what is being said here.
People are just saying get data/information - - see what it says - make decision.

Again I'll ask you:

What do you think the decision should be based upon?

KodiakGW, on 09 June 2021 - 07:01 AM, said:

When will population be large enough? Large enough to ask PGI to provide the information needed to make the informed decision.

That would be a question for PGI. They have the data/information. No one really knows, people can only guess and without much accuracy at that.

PGI would also have to get the engineer resources to code/make it all happen which from Daeron's last VLOG they don't have available. So another question for them.

[KodiakGW]

KodiakGW, on 09 June 2021 - 04:33 AM, said:

What is the population number we need to reach to consider separating the queues?

Consider, as to investigate. It's quite evident that my question will only be met with deflection, or saying again that "population is too low". I know what the answer is, even if population continues to rise, no time soon[color=#2A2A2A]™.[/color]

Love to continue reading the politician like responses, but I got Microsoft Patch Tuesday patches to apply to my equipment since the only BSOD issue I read so far has to do with Intel wireless adapters. Plus I just saw that Robot Jox is free on Prime. So I'd rather spend my time watching that in between restarts.

Enjoy!

[Storming Angel]

If it is 35k i don't see how a 8v8 que wouldn't work in all honesty, doesn't sound like a small playerbase at all especially for a stagnant game such as this (although still enjoyable i guess).

Also i don't see how they can't just hire programmers unless, theres that few running around out there or their work ethics are that bad really.

They could go to cryengine 5 if they wanted to keep with the company for whatever reason. Otherwise we will see nothing more than map changes, and stat changes and little of anything else.

[Leone]

KodiakGW, on 09 June 2021 - 04:33 AM, said:

Not to single you out, but I could spend hours pulling quotes from all the defenders of not doing anything to current quick play for that reason. Which is reminiscent of “stay the course, thousand points of lights.” So I ask one simple question.

What is the population number we need to reach to consider separating the queues?

Personally, my opinion is when we've constant Solaris and Faction warfare ongoing during Oceanic gaming time. Right now they're still dead during my peak gaming hours. I left during early 2019 because I couldn't get any matches in. Quickplay is the standby mode for me and matches already take forever to get. Numbers are up, yay, but that's no excuse to kill the queues with more splitting.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 09 June 2021 - 10:07 AM.

[Nightbird]

Vlad Ward, on 03 June 2021 - 08:38 AM, said:

Everybody loses in the binary scenario presented (ie one where actually fixing the MM or adding basic core functionality to the game is off the table).

The question is how many people are losing and to what degree.

Soup queue results in more people losing relatively little. Split queue results in a smaller number of people losing a lot more.

In this case, I believe 'sharing the pain' is the better of two bad options for the health of the game.

This was the logic used for FP, and the population fled to QP.

[Anomalocaris]

KodiakGW, on 09 June 2021 - 04:33 AM, said:

Not to single you out, but I could spend hours pulling quotes from all the defenders of not doing anything to current quick play for that reason. Which is reminiscent of “stay the course, thousand points of lights.” So I ask one simple question.

What is the population number we need to reach to consider separating the queues?

A number have said they would be for separation, a 8v8 group queue, when population is big enough. We are back to numbers we haven’t seen since early 2019. Evidently that is not good enough. What is? 30k, 35k, more? Please let us know what is the magical number we need to get to so I don’t have to continually experience what happened to me in April. I want to try out some builds, and level mechs, which I would never impose on friends. Trying to do that in the current Soup Queue is infuriating.

if it is 30k, fine. We are close to that. I will group up with the few friends I see are active, take an already leveled assault or Night Gyr to use max tonnage, and deal with Soup Queue to help player numbers. But, I want to see posts from everyone this month who has said “not enough population” backing the idea to split queues when we hit 30k. I seriously doubt we will get to 35k or more without a seriously big change. Fixing prior bad decisions alone won’t get us there. Which includes bad original map design.

IMO, you will never get a straight answer from those who want to keep a mixed queue. Because a whole bunch of them simply don't want to play in a group only queue - probably because the predator/prey relationship there between good and bad players is more pronounced (no matchmaker other than team sizes). So they'll move goal posts, add conditions and always find a reason not to support the change. Population goes up, they'll say its because of their changes. Population goes down, they'll blame it on seasonality or random variability.

Right now, using steamcharts, we are seeing average players online numbers that haven't been seen since mid 2018. And in fact average players online for the last couple months is only 15% below the average for all of 2017 (1000 vs. 850 approximately). Overall playerbase is only about 10% below where we were in the 2nd half of 2017 according to Jarl's.

Using steamcharts x2 as representative of total players online at any given time (Russ has said that people playing through the PC launcher actually tend to exceed the steam numbers, so the 2x calc should be conservative), we almost never have less than 800 players on at any given time, even in the wee hours of the morning. Peak numbers are approaching 3000 players per day and averages are in the 1600-1700 players online each day.

I know that in 2017 I had no issue getting group drops in NA and EU servers with groups of 4-6 players. And even when our average player numbers (per steam) were half what they are now solo drops had wait times of a few minutes maximum, and just seconds during prime time.

An 8v8 group queue with maximum 4-man groups (cause we're ok with that now) would not only make match making easier than the old 12v12 any size group allowed setup, but it would also allow for the same number of matches as the old setup with only 2/3 the population. And limiting group size to 4 will also mitigate the stompiness that resulted when large, high quality groups would drop in the old setup. If we added solo opt-ins then matchmaking times would only get better.

So whether someone favors soup or not, the simple fact is that by going with an 8v8 group queue and limiting group sizes we could easily pull off a group queue that would be able to match 2016-2017 matchmaking times/availability with the current population (80% of the population, but only need 66% as many players per match).

Now, some might ask about matchmaking quality. Group queue never had a matchmaker. So really not a concern. But since we now do have the ability to average total group PSR, add it in if you like.

In summary, we have enough population now for an 8v8 group queue that would kick off matches at least as quickly as we saw in 2017, maybe better since the puzzle pieces (group sizes) are restricted. And this is without solo opt-ins or adding a skill based matchmaker.

Nightbird, on 09 June 2021 - 10:10 AM, said:

This was the logic used for FP, and the population fled to QP.

Not to mention that sharing the pain isn't the only option. The other is leaving.

[Leone]

Anomalocaris, on 09 June 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

IMO, you will never get a straight answer from those who want to keep a mixed queue.

Add another queue when the queues we've already got are all in use. Sorry if I lack the eloquence you're looking for but how much straighter do you want your answers?

Anomalocaris, on 09 June 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

In summary, we have enough population now for an 8v8 group queue that would kick off matches at least as quickly as we saw in 2017, maybe better since the puzzle pieces (group sizes) are restricted. And this is without solo opt-ins or adding a skill based matchmaker.

No... No we don't. we have one queue alive at all times and two other queues getting a smattering of use. It's a simple concept, not hard to follow. If you're not using everything you've currently got, why dilute the waters further?

~Leone

[Dogstar]

Leone, on 09 June 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

Add another queue when the queues we've already got are all in use. Sorry if I lack the eloquence you're looking for but how much straighter do you want your answers?

I don't think they will _ever_ understand, there's several possible reasons - firstly it's probably because they play at peak population times and always manage to get matches in a reasonable time and if that's what were happening to you or I we might be thinking the same. Secondly it could be because they are simply unable to bend, compromise, or comprehend that there are different points of view. Which is why I mostly don't bother with replying to them.

Lastly, regardless of player population, suggestions, or anything we do, it will take someone actually changing the code, even to do something as silly as putting back the old queues, and that's something PGI just _will not do_.

Until MWO comes out of maintenance mode with regards to actual code changes, nothing is going to change, and while I'm impressed with what Daeron and the Cauldron have managed this year there's still a total lack of commitment from anyone higher than our community manager at PGI.

[Capt Deadpool]

Ash makes a good point in that even if we did reach some inflection point where there is consensus that 'the population is high enough' to split the queues again (which I suspect is a point that is much, much higher than what this niche game late in its life cycle is capable of ever achieving), that the same problem that killed group queue won't kill it again, with 3-5 high skilled groups scaring average and streamer groups back into sync-dropping solo queue.

It seems there is no ideal solution, as solos shouldn't be forced to play against groups and yet is is also a social game where players should be able to play with friends....

A possible compromise/consolation prize, and this is just a shot in the dark, but because this is a competitive FPS that attracts the type of player that like to see leaderboards and stats and K/D ratios, maybe it would be more satisfying for solo players, or at least less 'painful' for them if they feel they just got stomped because of some coordinating group on the opposite team, if anytime someone is playing in a group the groupers' game is not eligible to be applied to the leaderboard, or have a separate leaderboard if players are grouped? Everyone then knows the leaderboard represents an even playing field...Maybe I am way off track.. Just a thought.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 09 June 2021 - 11:40 AM.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 09 June 2021 - 06:51 AM, said:

Where did the argument change? The core issue is - population is too low. That is completely unchanged.

Then the question gets asked to that core issue - when is population no longer too low?

To come to an informed solution/conclusion you need to look at everything on the table. Data, stats, historical information etc.

One key one was GroupQ was dying back in 2017 where it was ~35k players in a 12v12 format. If it goes back to 8v8, without data how can anyone hope you make an informed decision?


I mean what do you think a decision should be based on if not data and information?

Population numbers arnt the core issue at all though. The core issue is that solo players shouldnt be forced to play against groups.

The player population has absolutely nothing to do with that because solo queue can survive without groups.

Its groups that needed solo queue to survive not the other way around.

Groups were added to solo queue solely to preserve the group aspect of the game for the small minority of players that play in groups. It was not done out of necessity to save the game itself. Solo queue is perfectly capable of thriving without groups.

Having two separate queues would absolutely not kill the solo only queue. The solo only queue will continue to thrive regardless. The only queue thats at risk of failing would be the newly created mixed queue. If that does fail it only serves to prove that solos really didnt want to play against groups afterall. If it doesnt fail then everybody wins: solos get their own queue and people who want to play in groups can still do so.

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2021 - 11:47 AM.

[Dogstar]

If the numbers did get high enough they could always try a 8v8 solo only queue.

As long as they leave the current quickplay queue as 12v12 with small groups it might be fine - there has to be an option to play with friends that isn't the crappy group queue or faction play of days gone by

[Anomalocaris]

Leone, on 09 June 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

Add another queue when the queues we've already got are all in use. Sorry if I lack the eloquence you're looking for but how much straighter do you want your answers?


No... No we don't. we have one queue alive at all times and two other queues getting a smattering of use. It's a simple concept, not hard to follow. If you're not using everything you've currently got, why dilute the waters further?

~Leone

Lacking eloquence is not the problem. Understanding? There's your problem. When the queues were merged we were told the population just wouldn't support 2 queues anymore. And people just wanted to play with their friends, so c'mon, show a little sympathy to those group players. Russ himself said on twitter, 5 days or so into the 1 month "trial period" that there really wasn't any option for going back because the population was too small. This was the mantra for anyone and everyone who supported soup queue. Yeah, it sucks, but the pops too small and we don't want to lose the group players, so chin up and embrace the suck. Yet, once the "trial period" was over, population started declining again. Oops.

Then the population idid a U-turn after Daeron got hired and PGI started doing some basic game improvements. People got hyped. Then we got word that PGI would finally embrace the Cauldron and let them try some of their ideas to improve the game. More people started playing (first timers or returning vets). Things got better. So now that the population is nearly 3x larger than it was at its nadir in Feb 2020, plenty of people who would prefer solo are asking "why can't we split the queues again?"

A number of players simply will not play anymore in a mixed queue. I'm one. There are others. If you want to keep growing population, you're going to have to give us solo queue back. Population dropped for 3 of 4 months after soup queue was instituted - there is no data to support that soup queue helped with the population of the game. Many solo preferential players might try soup queue again if we had a real matchmaker that could account for group skill, but we don't, so groups, really good or really bad, skew matchmaking in a negative way. This is inarguable because that's how the matchmaker works.

The historical data tells us how big the population was when we had successful split queues. We are now approaching that population size again. Furthermore, changing to the 8v8 group queue (which, btw, was programmed and functional before soup queue was created) will allow the same number of group queue matches we saw with a population 50% bigger than we have now.

Soup queue is worse than solo queue was, but for group players its better than nothing. If you want to grow the population, you have to offer people the ability to play the games they want. This leaves you two choices. Fix the matchmaker (which PGI has shown themselves woefully unable or unwilling to do) or separate the queues. Groups have a place to play and so do solos. Both will have plenty of matches. In fact, without having to mix groups and solos, I posit that matchmaking times will be quicker than they are now, especially for groups.

Last month we added 3200 new players to the population. But we also lost 1400 players from the pre-existing population. Nightbird has done some more detailed retention studies. We'll have to do better if we want to grow more. We're already down 3% this month. No idea why yet (less news on patch changes, people tried the new stuff and some don't like it? Don't know). It would be nice to keep the game growing.

[Leone]

We have a solo only Queue. We have a group only queue for the hardcore. We have a queue with respawns. And then we have quickplay for those that just want fast drops.

Seriously, I feel like a tired parent trying to explain to small children that they can't have a second dinner until they finish their dessert and snacks. We have one v one. If you wanna go solo you can't get more solo'n that. We have comp, for the most dedicated of group play. We have faction warfare. There's literally a queue for everyone. Heck they even went and release MW5 for pve!

I seriously feel like you're the kinda spoiled teenager that's looking into a full garage and finds it wanting. We got a motorcycle, a coup, a van and a truck and even a little ATV off on the side and you're the kid looking at your dad whose working two jobs and saying 'But I want a jeep!'

~Leone

[Vlad Ward]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

Ash makes a good point in that even if we did reach some inflection point where there is consensus that 'the population is high enough' to split the queues again (which I suspect is a point that is much, much higher than what this niche game late in its life cycle is capable of ever achieving), that the same problem that killed group queue won't kill it again, with 3-5 high skilled groups scaring average and streamer groups back into sync-dropping solo queue.

I don't really see him saying that? Or do you mean to say that the consensus you're talking about may happen before we actually have a high enough population to support a standalone group queue with a functional matchmaker?

I can absolutely see that. Heck, you have people already saying that our numbers are good enough now because GQ existed in 2018. It doesn't seem to matter whether or not GQ was good in 2018, just that it was tolerable enough.

Honestly, the in-group/out-group hostility here is mind-boggling, particularly given how one-sided much of the anger seems to be.

When's the last time you heard someone dunk on solo players for playing solo?

[Capt Deadpool]

Vlad Ward, on 09 June 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

Or do you mean to say that the consensus you're talking about may happen before we actually have a high enough population to support a standalone group queue with a functional matchmaker?

Yes, this. Even if there was consensus within either the Cauldron or the larger community that the population was large enough to split the queues again, I believe that decision would be incorrect. The population would need to be much, much higher than what I believe the game will ever achieve again to reduce the % of time average groups play against the best groups significantly enough in order to keep the average groups from reverting to sync dropping in solo queue. This is just my opinion, even though I wish it were not true.... This is an old, niche game.

Khobai, on 09 June 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

If the same problem emerges then it proves that people really dont want to play against groups and reinforces the idea of why we need a solo only queue.

No one has ever disputed solos don't like playing against groups, dude. But there is also significant evidence that merging queues has provided the game with a significant population increase by allowing friends to play with each other in a non self-destructing queue.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 09 June 2021 - 01:38 PM.

[Khobai]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

No one has ever disputed solos don't like playing against groups, dude. But there is also significant evidence that merging queues has provided the game with a significant population increase by allowing friends to play with each other in a non self-destructing queue.

If the fact solos dont like playing against groups isnt disputed, then why is it okay for groups to be allowed to play with their friends at the expense of solo players? But not okay for solo players to not want to play against groups? I mean thats really the core issue here. Group players are being selfish.

[Capt Deadpool]

Khobai, on 09 June 2021 - 01:45 PM, said:

If the fact solos dont like playing against groups isnt disputed, then why is it okay for groups to be allowed to play with their friends at the expense of solo players? But not okay for solo players to not want to play against groups? I mean thats really the core issue here. Group players are being selfish.

I can expaain it to you, my friend, but I cannot understand it for you.

[Khobai]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

I can expaain it to you, my friend, but I cannot understand it for you.

You have failed utterly and completely to explain it.

All you have accomplished is coming off as being just as entitled as all the other group players that feel what they want is more important than what solo players want. That I fully understand.

The reality is a mixed queue cannot make everyone happy.

While having separate queues has the potential to appease everybody.

Give players the option to queue up for one or both queues at the same time. Offer extra cbill rewards for playing in the new mixed queue over the purely solo queue. And keep the max group size of 4. I believe it could work. I dont see why we cant have dynamic player counts for games either where it just starts an 8v8 game if it cant fill a 12v12 game.

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2021 - 02:03 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

I can expaain it to you, my friend, but I cannot understand it for you.

Pretty much sums it up. I think you've explained it very well as have others.