619 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

No one said they can't have agility. The issue is size. Dodge tanking without user input is bad. I'd even be fine with significantly increasing Light agility, as that requires user input. Size does not require skill and that will skew balance.

Look, man. End of the day, Battletech balances Lights by cost and numbers. MWO was designed almost religiously around Battletech in a lot of really weird ways. Despite this, Light cost and numbers are irrelevant in MWO. You only have two options: Change Lights or Change MWO.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 June 2021 - 03:47 PM.

[1453 R]

Vlad Ward, on 11 June 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

No one said they can't have agility.
...

Vlad Ward, on 11 June 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

...
Personally, I feel like the first step on the road to getting there has to be removing size/speed from the equation.
...

You did, in fact, specifically say that "Size and speed" have to be taken out of the equation. How is one supposed to construe that, save as a proposal for all 'Mechs to be the same size and have more-or-less the same mobility patterns? I only allowed for higher top speeds because it's pretty much flat impossible to have all 'Mechs go exactly the same speed.

Frankly, what you're describing isn't MechWarrior or BattleTech - it's Yet Another Call of Duty Shooty Booty, where every last character is more-or-less identical with only superficial customization options and a choice between three barely-different engagement range brackets. Because those are Skill-Based™ inasmuch as twitch aim is actually factually the only thing that matters to such a game, and Church of Skill folks have long made it known that twitch aim is the only possible skill one should acquire, the only possible factor that should decide fights, and the only possible thing any human being should aspire to.

Piranha did change light 'Mechs. They made a lot of them the size of ProtoMechs, they gave light 'Mechs drastically higher mobility than larger, more heavily armed and armored 'Mechs, and the Cauldron is working on giving the ones that process didn't save quirks where and as needed. Even then, light 'Mechs aren't in a great spot right now. There are a great many ways reticle bloom and non-pinpoint fire could solve that, but we're not getting non-pinpoint fire so we work with what we've got. Which means light 'Mechs need to stay small, fast, maneuverable, and ideally dangerous enough that you can't ignore them and assaults/fat heavies have to actively fear them. There needs to be counterplay to Fatbros, or the game is imbalanced in the other direction.

I know you think very little of Tier 5, but lemme tell you - even down here, light 'Mechs aren't much of an issue if a team remotely pays attention. A light 'Mech has to be uncommonly aggressive and also strikingly intelligent in their maneuvering to get away with much of anything. They live longer in T5, but that doesn't make it any easier for them to find a butt and chew on it. Even down here in the slumlord moshpits, people tend to gagglefuck around in a clumped-up murderball far too often for light 'Mechs to have any hope of doing anything until the enemy team has already been picked half apart.

Trust me, man. Making light 'Mechs huge and giving them all Piranha hardpoints, turning them all into thirty-ton Grasshoppers, is not - not not not - what light 'Mech pilots want. Nobody plays that class to be the same ginormously gigahuge Megadeuce-sized super robot that'd stick out when hiding behind small moons and which can't avoid enemy fire to literally save its life.

[D A T A]

i strongly believe that some lights are way too powerful, like flea 17 5small+2medpulse or piranhas with micropulses or firestarter with 8 smallpulses, some other ones instead are too weak

Wid1046, on 09 June 2021 - 10:47 AM, said:

If they were overpowered they'd be the most popular weight class. Instead they are the least popular weight class.

They are a high risk, high reward weight class with the 20 tonners in particular being very good in expert hand and utter trash in the hands of most players. That's why despite some seeming to be great you don't actually see very many light mechs in most games (this month is a bit different from usual since they've given all players two new light mechs to skill up). I can't get most lights to work for me, but I have respect for those who can get them to work.

they are not most popular becasue there are less lights in the store, ofc people use less of them.
and then, only 2-3 lights are really OP, most of them suck. so that's not a good indicator at all

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 11 June 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

Do you really think it's that hard? Please note, that it's trial 'Mech and I have 0 Light piloting experience.

Nice! now repeat 30 times and your average match score rises from 198 to 452.

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 11 June 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

You did, in fact, specifically say that "Size and speed" have to be taken out of the equation. How is one supposed to construe that, save as a proposal for all 'Mechs to be the same size and have more-or-less the same mobility patterns? I only allowed for higher top speeds because it's pretty much flat impossible to have all 'Mechs go exactly the same speed.

Frankly, what you're describing isn't MechWarrior or BattleTech - it's Yet Another Call of Duty Shooty Booty, where every last character is more-or-less identical with only superficial customization options and a choice between three barely-different engagement range brackets. Because those are Skill-Based™ inasmuch as twitch aim is actually factually the only thing that matters to such a game, and Church of Skill folks have long made it known that twitch aim is the only possible skill one should acquire, the only possible factor that should decide fights, and the only possible thing any human being should aspire to.

Piranha did change light 'Mechs. They made a lot of them the size of ProtoMechs, they gave light 'Mechs drastically higher mobility than larger, more heavily armed and armored 'Mechs, and the Cauldron is working on giving the ones that process didn't save quirks where and as needed. Even then, light 'Mechs aren't in a great spot right now. There are a great many ways reticle bloom and non-pinpoint fire could solve that, but we're not getting non-pinpoint fire so we work with what we've got. Which means light 'Mechs need to stay small, fast, maneuverable, and ideally dangerous enough that you can't ignore them and assaults/fat heavies have to actively fear them. There needs to be counterplay to Fatbros, or the game is imbalanced in the other direction.

I know you think very little of Tier 5, but .

Speed and agility aren't the same thing in MWO lexicon. Speed refers to the max speed of the Mech. Agility refers to turn rate, Accel/decel, twist, etc. Let Lights juke, so long as it requires player input.

Also, I don't have anything against T5. If anything, I'm trying to be aware of Tier 5 when talking about balance. I could very well sit here and advocate for changes that make Lights good in Tier 1 and just not care that they'd break Tier 5.

When Tier 5 players can't hit a Commando moving at max speed in a straight line, it's not because the Commando is "dodging." It's because the Commando is either too fast (max speed) or too small. Max speed won't change. Size should.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 June 2021 - 04:58 PM.

[Leone]

1453 R, on 11 June 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

Trust me, man. Making light 'Mechs huge and giving them all Piranha hardpoints, turning them all into thirty-ton Grasshoppers, is not - not not not - what light 'Mech pilots want. Nobody plays that class to be the same ginormously gigahuge Megadeuce-sized super robot that'd stick out when hiding behind small moons and which can't avoid enemy fire to literally save its life.

Leone, on 03 June 2021 - 01:04 PM, said:

Recently I've been playing a game called 'Suddenly Thanatos' where I take a stealth armoured Heavy brawler behind enemy lines, un-stealth and crash into them whilst they're trading with my team. They all turn their backs on the firing line and my mech gets totally wrecked whilst my team'll sometimes push and get loads of back shots and end up brawling overheated mechs. Sometimes they don't though and I die alone in pointless ignominy.

~Leone

I mean, I wouldn't hate it... but I would want it uparmoured to heavy levels.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 11 June 2021 - 06:30 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

D A T A, on 11 June 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

i strongly believe that some lights are way too powerful, like flea 17 5small+2medpulse or piranhas with micropulses or firestarter with 8 smallpulses, some other ones instead are too weak

In order to further this discussion, please do define what 'way too powerful' means to you, so we have a better idea of what you mean, Data.

Super effective/dominant/OP in the hands of very skilled pilots which is some miniscule amount of the population who would also be OP in all but the most garbage of mechs? In comp play? As effective and meta as a Veagle or Warhammer or Hellbringer or Mad Cat in the hands of an average pilot who can just jump in and be effective? Overpowered as it pertains to the average damage done by these mechs relative to mediums/heavues/assaults? The W/L such light pilots are able to achieve compared to if they were playing a meta chassis from another class?

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 11 June 2021 - 06:42 PM.

[JediPanther]

How about another RE-RE-SCALE? Except this time make those OP fleas and lcts the size of an Awesome. I'm sure you fools will find a way to make ALL lights worse. Meanwhile I'll be plying other games since the vast majority of my lights are useless. Why would I use a death trap with maybe 30 alpha IS light when I can use my 65 ton 180 alpha catapult?

[Khobai]

JediPanther, on 11 June 2021 - 06:40 PM, said:

How about another RE-RE-SCALE? Except this time make those OP fleas and lcts the size of an Awesome. I'm sure you fools will find a way to make ALL lights worse. Meanwhile I'll be plying other games since the vast majority of my lights are useless. Why would I use a death trap with maybe 30 alpha IS light when I can use my 65 ton 180 alpha catapult?

its the awesome that needs a rescale not the flea.

if a flea is 20 tons and an awesome is 80 tons an awesome should only be 4 times bigger than a flea.

the biggest problem with assaults is theyre way too damn big. so big that they cant even shoot lights that are facehugging them. some assaults cant even shoot 50 ton crabs that are facehugging them. and the size of their hitboxes makes it so easy to hit specific locations that its counterintuitive to whole concept that assaults are supposed to be tanky. the second biggest problem with assaults is that a lot of them are just too slow and they cant afford to go deep into the mobility tree to pick up speed tweak because then theyre at a disadvantage to heavies that went full firepower/survivability.

assaults are the most messed up weight class in the game right now.

Vlad Ward, on 11 June 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

No one said they can't have agility. The issue is size. Dodge tanking without user input is bad. I'd even be fine with significantly increasing Light agility, as that requires user input. Size does not require skill and that will skew balance.

Look, man. End of the day, Battletech balances Lights by cost and numbers. MWO was designed almost religiously around Battletech in a lot of really weird ways. Despite this, Light cost and numbers are irrelevant in MWO. You only have two options: Change Lights or Change MWO.

No theres plenty of ways they couldve balanced lights being weaker than assaults. They didnt need to try to make lights equal to assaults.

PGI just made some really bad design choices when it came to weight class balancing. And its why assaults are so terrible now. in solo queue slow assaults are seen as a burden so teams just abandon them if they cant keep up with the team. thats been the case for a while now.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2021 - 07:53 PM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Make supersized mechs smaller, let tag light up stealth mechs within the ecm bubble if stealth is engage - there happy? If you nerf them (or buff assaults) too much no one will play lights, then mediums become the new lights till no one plays them, then suddenly Linebackers are doing all the capping on Conquest.

[Storming Angel]

heard an atlas is 16metres tall. too be fair there seems to be little consistency when it comes to height of mechs in the battletech universe, guess we will just have to figure what mechs should be a what size for gameplay purposes.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 11 June 2021 - 07:04 PM, said:

its the awesome that needs a rescale not the flea.

if a flea is 20 tons and an awesome is 80 tons an awesome should only be 4 times bigger than a flea.

the biggest problem with assaults is theyre way too damn big. so big that they cant even shoot lights that are facehugging them. some assaults cant even shoot 50 ton crabs that are facehugging them. and the size of their hitboxes makes it so easy to hit specific locations that its counterintuitive to whole concept that assaults are supposed to be tanky. the second biggest problem with assaults is that a lot of them are just too slow and they cant afford to go deep into the mobility tree to pick up speed tweak because then theyre at a disadvantage to heavies that went full firepower/survivability.

assaults are the most messed up weight class in the game right now.



No theres plenty of ways they couldve balanced lights being weaker than assaults. They didnt need to try to make lights equal to assaults.

PGI just made some really bad design choices when it came to weight class balancing. And its why assaults are so terrible now. in solo queue slow assaults are seen as a burden so teams just abandon them if they cant keep up with the team. thats been the case for a while now.

If assaults have been messed up and terrible for so long then why do they score so high?

[Khobai]

dario03, on 11 June 2021 - 10:21 PM, said:

If assaults have been messed up and terrible for so long then why do they score so high?

because theres assaults on the other team too.

[Leone]

Obviously it is part of the light pilot conspiracy to convince people to pilot assaults for lights to nom on.

~Leone.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 11 June 2021 - 10:26 PM, said:

because theres assaults on the other team too.

But theres also lights, mediums, and heavies on the other team.

[Khobai]

dario03, on 11 June 2021 - 10:39 PM, said:

But theres also lights, mediums, and heavies on the other team.

yes but assaults are the easiest to hit and can be farmed for the most damages

assaults are matchscore pinatas.

in games with less or no assaults everybodys damage is noticeably lower.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2021 - 10:46 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 11 June 2021 - 10:41 PM, said:

yes but assaults are the easiest to hit and can be farmed for the most damages

Sure, because they have the most armor. They also have the most firepower. Both things that make them very good.

[Dogstar]

Data/Ash - do you know if the sensor range of mechs can be changed in xml or is it set in code?

The reason I ask is because while there is a lot of debate about lights most of the solutions involve rescaling (not likely to happen), increasing hardpoints(definitely not happening), increasing armour (debateable in it's effectiveness), or nerfing the outliers (how?), but we haven't talked about other solutions for improving lights.

Firstly, I think one problem is that lights don't score/reward as much in matches because the way matches are scored/rewarded is poor. I don't think that can be changed but maybe we could improve light mech scores by giving them quirks to make them better at scoring and better at earning rewards. I'd like to see light mechs get a straight up buff to XP and income.

Secondly, light mechs don't usually have the tonnage to fit all the tasty goodies needed to fulfil any sort of scouting/EW role. If it's possible, adding an ECM slot to _all_ light mechs would vastly improve the class. Additionally is it possible to quirk lights to give them easier access to AMS/BAP/TC/TAG/etc? i.e. reducing tonnage requirements or increasing effectiveness? Consumable limits could also be increased for lights.

Lastly, and the reason I asked about the sensor ranges, would it be possible to increase light mech sensor range? This would help them be more useful on the battlefield and kind of give them an actual scouting role, which might improve their popularity.

Edited by Dogstar, 12 June 2021 - 01:12 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Storming Angel, on 11 June 2021 - 08:29 PM, said:

heard an atlas is 16metres tall. too be fair there seems to be little consistency when it comes to height of mechs in the battletech universe, guess we will just have to figure what mechs should be a what size for gameplay purposes.

Lore wise the Atlas was 11-12 meters tall.. Banshee should be bigger than Atlas.

Edited by MechaGnome, 12 June 2021 - 02:23 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Dogstar, on 11 June 2021 - 05:24 AM, said:

Sorry but while I'm normally in agreement with you I simply can't agree with this. As has been pointed out if light mechs really were OP then everyone would play them instead of heavies and assaults, but in fact they are consistently the least played class.

Some light mechs do have an OP trick up their sleeves, that's not in doubt and we all know which ones the culprits are, but to label all light mechs as OP is wrong.

Agility increases are coming later this month, we will soon see how light mechs fare once twist and pitch are improved across the board - I suspect they will rapidly disappear except for the culprits mentioned before.

I never said they were easy to play.. i said they are overpowered when used right. Agility is meaningless with out mech re-scales.. until we can effectively shoot light mechs in front of us we are screwed by lights.

They are all op because of the speeds they can do and the crappy servers cannot keep up.. Obviously things like urbies and Adders aren't as dangerous speed wise but can still boat a medium to heavy amount of damage.

justcallme A S H, on 11 June 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

Lag Shield?

I play with 240ms++. At the highest level in the game. It is simply not a thing, at all.

MWO uses Host State Rewind and it is explained in great detail.


---> CLICK ME <---



You should understand how the game works before making completely false claims.

Yes sure keep BSing, after all these years and you still don't.. And MWO Host State Rewind is garbage and doesn't work right..

Edited by MechaGnome, 12 June 2021 - 02:36 AM.