619 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

LOL. 12 machine guns is far from harmless. thats higher dps than dual AC20s. and the piranha was specifically mentioned.

and I already said the problem isnt lights. the problem is that assaults are oversized and have terrible pitch.

and yes the problem is people letting their slow assaults get isolated and die. I said that too.


but again you havent answered my question. how do you leg a light when your assault is so tall and has such bad pitch it physically cant pitch down enough to shoot the light?

there is undeniably a problem with huge assaults vs tiny lights. and its absolutely causing frustration within the player base.

stealth armor is still very much a problem too IMO. Since a lot of players dont know how to counter it and stealth armor makes it so the red box doesnt appear around the mech which players could use to hit lights hidden under their HUD with arm weapons. Stealth armor also makes games drag out to a miserable conclusion when you realize you have to spend 5 minutes playing hunt the stealth flea.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 07:54 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Khobai, on 10 June 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

LOL. 12 machine guns is far from harmless. thats higher dps than dual AC20s. and the piranha was specifically mentioned. so yes theyre being boated.

and what highly mobile, ecm+stealth-mech boats them...?
anybody with decent enough aim can one-shot the wet-toiletpaper-piranha.
and if not, they have buddies that can. after all, he's hardly invisible.
it is literally a mech that only performs if 12 reds sleep.

to put this another way:
of all the lights I'd worry about, the PIR is not one of them. even down here in T3.

so: still nobody takes an MG (outside that PIR), which should tell you exactly how good they are.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 10 June 2021 - 07:49 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 June 2021 - 07:46 AM, said:

and what highly mobile, ecm+stealth-mech boats them...?
anybody with decent enough aim can one-shot the wet-paper-piranha.
and if not, they have buddies that can. after all, he's hardly invisible.
it is literally a mech that only performs if 12 reds sleep.

to put this another way:
of all the lights I'd worry about, the PIR is not one of them. even down here in T3.

If you're a stalker or fafnir or MCII and you get left behind by your nascar enthusiastic team, you have plenty to worry about. Without a friend to help scrape the piranha off, you're dead. Faster mechs can twist to get a shot off, but the big bloaty boats cannot.

This is not because the light mech is so OP, it's because of a total lack of teamwork. But the outcome is the same.

[Khobai]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 June 2021 - 07:46 AM, said:

and what highly mobile, ecm+stealth-mech boats them...?
anybody with decent enough aim can one-shot the wet-toiletpaper-piranha.
and if not, they have buddies that can. after all, he's hardly invisible.
it is literally a mech that only performs if 12 reds sleep.

to put this another way:
of all the lights I'd worry about, the PIR is not one of them. even down here in T3.

so: still nobody takes an MG (outside that PIR), which should tell you exactly how good they are.

huh? a lot of builds use machine guns. shadowcats often take 6 machine guns for example. kitfox, mist lynx, firestarter, arctic cheetah. theres countless mech variants that often take 4-6 machine guns. they may not be top tier mechs but people do use machine guns on them.

machine guns are really not as bad as you make them out to be. 4 machine guns does the same dps as an AC10 for a fraction of the weight.

mechs with 8-12 machine guns can be downright scary. 6-8 heavy machine guns can be scary too since thats effectively the same dps as 9-12 regular machine guns.

ScrapIron Prime, on 10 June 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

If you're a stalker or fafnir or MCII and you get left behind by your nascar enthusiastic team, you have plenty to worry about. Without a friend to help scrape the piranha off, you're dead. Faster mechs can twist to get a shot off, but the big bloaty boats cannot.

This is not because the light mech is so OP, it's because of a total lack of teamwork. But the outcome is the same.

exactly. although I would argue the MCII actually isnt as bad off as other assault because its weapons are primarily arm based. You can fight off lights in a MCII ive done it.

but if your weapons are mainly torso weapons like the fafnir youre screwed.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 08:11 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 10 June 2021 - 07:56 AM, said:

huh? a lot of builds use machine guns. shadowcats often take 6 machine guns for example.

Right, its just that the piranha can take so bloody many of them. it's like having someone take sandpaper to your armor. Everyone else who loads up on the things is less newsworthy.

[bilagaana]

Khobai, on 09 June 2021 - 11:55 AM, said:

I think stealth armor is a problem. Nobody enjoys spending 5 minutes hunting down stealth armor fleas. And I think thats one of the big things that irritates people about light mechs right now.

Simple remedy: Stop voting for Skirmish. Every other mode requires that last remaining enemy to be somewhere they can be located, unless they're engaging in non-participation.

[Khobai]

bilagaana, on 10 June 2021 - 08:02 AM, said:

Simple remedy: Stop voting for Skirmish. Every other mode requires that last remaining enemy to be somewhere they can be located, unless they're engaging in non-participation.

i dont vote for skirmish

other people vote for skirmish though.

thats why your remedy doesnt work

sure if everyone does it, it would work. and if everyone did every reasonable suggestion most of the games problems would disappear. the problem is people dont do it.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 08:14 AM.

[Wildstreak]

If they were, the percentage of Lights played would be higher but they are now.
Some are not worth it based on hardpoints and role.
Some just give you no rewards even if you do your best in them, this matters for those who want Tier.
Being a threat depends on several factors so it is not as universal as you think.
As for Mediums, depends on what one you are using and loadout.

[Bud Crue]

I shan't bother mocking the premise of this thread other than to say that while I too hate stealth Fleas as much as anyone, that it ought to be gospel by now that ton for ton the Urbie is the best Assault in the game, and that the Commando has hit boxes which give it endurance that may be a bit out of wack; but if you think "Light Mechs" as a class, are too powerful, then I challenge you to level a Panther 10P (with your build of choice) from scratch, then post your collective match results and the number of matches it took to level the thing, then you can tell me just how OP light mechs are and how they ought to be nerffed. After that we can do the the Spider 5V, then some of the lesser played Locust, Osiris, Jenner and Incubus variants. If you do all that and still think "Light Mechs Too Powerful" then I will buy you your light mech pack of choice.

[1453 R]

So....to the whole argument of "assaults can't pitch down far enough to hit light 'Mechs! DX"

...do you...do you not have arms...?

Even the fattest, slowest, most elbow-challenged Fatbro still has shoulders. Put guns in the arms, turn Arm Lock the **** off (it drives me insane when I see people running with always-on arm lock, then maneuvering weirdly because they're too far up a hill or trying to catch a light and they can't get their torso crosshair over it. TURN OFF ARM LOCK, YOU GOOBERS! YOU HAVE SHOULDERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN ELBOWS, USE THEM!), and proceed to shoot the light. even if all you've got is a couple of medium lasers, oftentimes it'll be enough to get a twigweight who's trying to hump your leg to think twice.

Or, hell! Sometimes you'll win that fight!

I am reminded of one time when I was in the loyalty Night Gyr I apparently have for some reason, fitted with dual cUAC/20s, and a Lolcust decided to try the whole "you can't hit me if I'm in yer crotch, tee hee!" game plan. I let it shoot me for a couple of seconds while I laughed outrageously, said "Hey, Maker! Watch this little ****!", then proceeded to point my autocannons down below my torso crosshair and end that Lolcust's entire career.

Yes, arm-mounted weapons aren't as good for peeky-pokey chickendicking behind cover as high-mount torsos, and they're more vulnerable. They also have really nice range of motion and allow you to deal with elevation issues torso weapons just can't handle. Including shooting lights trying to Bad Touch your assault-weight junk.

Also? Yeah. I've not run less than 8 rear armor since coming back, often going up to 12 or even 16 over the center butt. 10-14 is the average, and usually it allows me to take a few wings and respond before getting armor breached. Or it allows me to maneuver in a scrum with less fear of getting Back Hack'd. That armor has generally done its job at least once before I die in most fights, and frankly there are times when I've deliberately turned my back to an enemy to get them to take a 'juicy' rear shot against intact armor, rather than fishing for a damaged arm or ST containing some of my weapons. That's not an optimal strategy, but it's a thing you can do if you armor your buttocks.

As well as, y'know...resist backstab attempts by angry bitey merderfish, blood-sucking parasites, or Special Forces midgets. Or whatever else manages to get behind you in the imperfect world that is the Inner Sphere, where you can't always guarantee perfectly protecting your great thundering metal posterior 100% of the time.

[KaptinOrk]

1453 R, on 10 June 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

So....to the whole argument of "assaults can't pitch down far enough to hit light 'Mechs! DX"

...do you...do you not have arms...?

Even the fattest, slowest, most elbow-challenged Fatbro still has shoulders. Put guns in the arms, turn Arm Lock the **** off (it drives me insane when I see people running with always-on arm lock, then maneuvering weirdly because they're too far up a hill or trying to catch a light and they can't get their torso crosshair over it. TURN OFF ARM LOCK, YOU GOOBERS! YOU HAVE SHOULDERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN ELBOWS, USE THEM!), and proceed to shoot the light. even if all you've got is a couple of medium lasers, oftentimes it'll be enough to get a twigweight who's trying to hump your leg to think twice.

Or, hell! Sometimes you'll win that fight!

I am reminded of one time when I was in the loyalty Night Gyr I apparently have for some reason, fitted with dual cUAC/20s, and a Lolcust decided to try the whole "you can't hit me if I'm in yer crotch, tee hee!" game plan. I let it shoot me for a couple of seconds while I laughed outrageously, said "Hey, Maker! Watch this little ****!", then proceeded to point my autocannons down below my torso crosshair and end that Lolcust's entire career.

Yes, arm-mounted weapons aren't as good for peeky-pokey chickendicking behind cover as high-mount torsos, and they're more vulnerable. They also have really nice range of motion and allow you to deal with elevation issues torso weapons just can't handle. Including shooting lights trying to Bad Touch your assault-weight junk.

I love arm mounted weapons, I always try to put something there to shoot lights and UAVs, they allow for some fun shots at unexpected angles as well since the meta is heavily biased toward high torso mounts. I don't like all of my weapons being in my arms unless it's a 'mech like the Blackjack or Jaegermech where the arms are teeny tiny and the rest of the 'mech is side torso.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 10 June 2021 - 09:38 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 10 June 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

So....to the whole argument of "assaults can't pitch down far enough to hit light 'Mechs! DX"

...do you...do you not have arms...?

Even the fattest, slowest, most elbow-challenged Fatbro still has shoulders. Put guns in the arms, turn Arm Lock the **** off (it drives me insane when I see people running with always-on arm lock, then maneuvering weirdly because they're too far up a hill or trying to catch a light and they can't get their torso crosshair over it. TURN OFF ARM LOCK, YOU GOOBERS! YOU HAVE SHOULDERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN ELBOWS, USE THEM!)

Arm Lock is really, really good. It stabilizes the cursor in the center of the screen, which improves aim approx 10,000%. Without arm lock, the screen follows the Torso cursor while the Arm cursor runs ahead. The result is that your cursor leaves the center of your screen, which is terrible and should never happen in an fps. They fixed this in MW5 but haven't bothered to make the update here. Arm lock also ensures that your weapons are all firing at the same point, which is super important for PPFLD builds.

Torso weapons in general are sturdier and just overall better than arm weapons.

You can use Free Look (left Ctrl by default) or toggle arm lock off to try to swing your gorilla arms around if you have weapons, but there are plenty of top tier Assault builds that have dead arms.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 10 June 2021 - 09:45 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 10 June 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

As well as, y'know...resist backstab attempts by angry bitey merderfish, blood-sucking parasites, or Special Forces midgets. Or whatever else manages to get behind you in the imperfect world that is the Inner Sphere, where you can't always guarantee perfectly protecting your great thundering metal posterior 100% of the time.

Special Forces midgets. that is officially added to my Lexicon of "terms I didn't know I needed until I heard them!" Thanks!

[PurplePuke]

I can't imagine thinking that Light Mechs are somehow overpowered. It's as if people who say that are playing a different game than I am or something.

LIghts are very challenging to get consistent good results with. Players always shoot my legs. Or at least good players do.

But they're the most fun to play, when it works.

I think some people's natural reaction is to complain when things don't go their way, rather than to try to figure out what to do to be better.

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 10 June 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Arm Lock is really, really good. It stabilizes the cursor in the center of the screen, which improves aim approx 10,000%. Without arm lock, the screen follows the Torso cursor while the Arm cursor runs ahead. The result is that your cursor leaves the center of your screen, which is terrible and should never happen in an fps. They fixed this in MW5 but haven't bothered to make the update here. Arm lock also ensures that your weapons are all firing at the same point, which is super important for PPFLD builds.

Torso weapons in general are sturdier and just overall better than arm weapons.

You can use Free Look (left Ctrl by default) or toggle arm lock off to try to swing your gorilla arms around if you have weapons, but there are plenty of top tier Assault builds that have dead arms.

arm weapons have several key advantages over torso weapons like actually being able to shoot up and down. torso weapons on assaults are notoriously bad at shooting down. A lot of assaults cant shoot their torso weapons downhill worth a damn. let alone hit lights that are facehugging them.

thats why the MCII-B is such a great mech because all its autocannons are arm mounted which gives it a considerable agility advantage over mechs with torso mounted autocannons. especially when it comes to shooting downhill.

streaks also use the arm reticle to lockon. when streaks were better weapons and actually killed lights that was relevant because it allowed torso mounted streaks to lockon with the arm reticle effectively giving torso streaks the same agility as arm weapons. That allowed you to deadarm very effectively.

I think people have forgotten how to put arm weapons on assaults and turn off arm lock. Thats probably part of the problem lol. But assaults are also way too damn big.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 10:36 AM.

[1453 R]

Vlad Ward, on 10 June 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Arm Lock is really, really good. It stabilizes the cursor in the center of the screen, which improves aim approx 10,000%. Without arm lock, the screen follows the Torso cursor while the Arm cursor runs ahead. The result is that your cursor leaves the center of your screen, which is terrible and should never happen in an fps. They fixed this in MW5 but haven't bothered to make the update here. Arm lock also ensures that your weapons are all firing at the same point, which is super important for PPFLD builds.

Torso weapons in general are sturdier and just overall better than arm weapons.

You can use Free Look (left Ctrl by default) or toggle arm lock off to try to swing your gorilla arms around if you have weapons, but there are plenty of top tier Assault builds that have dead arms.

I get the reason a lot of folks use arm lock, and why toggling it on and off is important in high-end Ultracompy play where people use nothing but the best hillhumpers and corner campers money can buy.

But if you're down in the Mosh Pit complaining about lights being too hard to shoot because you can't crank your train engine of a torso down far enough to line up a shot? There's a solution for that. The solution may not be to everyone's perfect tastes, but hey - you can make the best hill humper or corner camper money can buy and suck *** at dealing with lights, or you can diversify a little bit, give up some of the sublime perfection in Hump Camping, and be much better at dealing with twigweights.

It is, in fact, Your Choice™. And when you get turnt by someone you deliberately chose to make your build exceptionally weak against, I'm not sure how much complaint you've really got coming, ne?

[Der Geisterbaer]

Khobai said:

a standard 12 machine gun + 1 laser piranha-1 does that easily

Well at least you mentioned a variant and a somewhat precise loadout while somewhat failing to mention all the info I asked for with regards to the target.

Khobai said:

it does ~13 dps. once the machine guns get through the armor and into the structure the dps spikes much higher.

Just for the "lulz" I just went into Tourmaline Desert testing grounds with a PIR-1 with two 12 machine guns + 1 laser (once a heavy small laser and once a micro pulse laser) and tested the "murder time" against the Atlas closest to the spawn point.

The following conditions applied:

• Since it's Testing Grounds there was no ping induced lag, desync issues or other limitations imposed by the server authority in actual matches
  
• The Atlas obviously stood completely still, i.e. he didn't respond with any form of response to the incoming damage. This translates into a totally oblivious pilot whom's reaction time to incoming damage is several seconds. Even when factoring in a "shock second" that's a reaction time that is anywhere between factor 2 to 4 too slow when compared to an average human being.
  
• The Atlas obviously had the default rear armor but (IIRC) there are no survival nodes active for increased armor and or structure beyond default quirks
  
• The PIR-1 equally stood completely still at the 6 o'clock position behind the Atlas (angle offset max + or - 3°) and as a result of 2. didn't have to maneuver to maintain its attack angle on the targeted area (center torso) nor had to deal with twitch abilities of its pilot to maintain aim.
  
• The position was well within optimal weapon range to have full damage and absolutely no spread of the machine guns whatsoever

Results:



It took in both attempts something between 5.25 and 6.25 seconds to kill said Atlas under these almost absolute perfect conditions.

For comparison I then did the same for the Awesome on the map under the same conditions ... and astonishingly enough that assault lastet between 6 and 7 seconds before it died ... I had expected it to die faster than the Atlas

Khobai said:

any mech with a combination of armor+structure of 70 or less on their back and CT dies in 5 seconds.

Since the main complain usually comes from Assault pilots: How many Assaults are there that would fall into that particular category in a reasonably well build Assault?

Khobai said:

the only situational constraints is that it finds an isolated mech and shoots it in the back CT for 5 seconds. which isnt that difficult given how bad a lot of assault pilots are these days especially in the upper tiers.

Well, it would appear that the actual situational constraints that lead to your described 5 second kill window include all the things I wrote as well as your additional constraint of having armor and structure of 70 or less.So it takes really close to absolute perfect conditions to achieve those 5 seconds you're trying to argue with.

The only way to get even better conditions would be to stipulate IS-Assault with XL engine and this PIR-1 then exclusively hitting a side torso instead of the center torso.

Khobai said:

its not some fallacious edge case it literally happens all the time lol.

Sorry to say it: But you did not convince me that you are not trying to argue from a perspective where you are indeed looking at an edge case

Khobai said:

And Im not saying piranhas are overpowered.

This doesn't "compute". You claimed that a light killing an Assault in 5 seconds was a "problem". Logically this must mean that any light mech that truly manages to do what you were talking about is "overpowered" within the general balance and populace of the game.

Khobai said:

Just that it does happen a lot more than it should.

And now you're contradicting yourself again: If it truly happened "a lot more often than it should" then logically the involved mech could not be "balanced" and thus would at least have to be "overpowered" against the average player and possibly even within the base balance as well.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 June 2021 - 11:37 AM.

[SafeScanner]

personal opinion Light mechs are not overpowered

General Awarness- stealthed light mech are not invisible and can been seen and pointed out through VoIP/chat yes some maps favor lights at certain areas (dark areas of solaris city/water in costal city) but alot of areas are already very exposed and straight where the light might get shot in the back retreating,

so if a mech is hiding the the water and you know its there don't go in don't put yourself in a positon where you are at a disadvantage or your asking to be hurt, stick together at all times you have no rights to complain if a light/s kills you because you decided to lone wolf or stay behind and fire LRM's and don't notice the Low intel/scrambled map

Teamwork - affects a lights ability to do its work if the lights team folds fast the light isnt going to be able to flank so easily (1 vs 12 in 4 min are annoying) letting people know "io Locust here trying to hump my leg....help" and overwhelm the poor bugger, of course the the other way round is possible if a team can drag out a fight lights can start chipping away and just doing its thing for alot of damage(those fights are shockingly in short supply)

Last note - PSR is heavily skewed against lights playing the objectives distracting and doing less than 300ish damage usally results in a PSR Loss which at some points i just want it gone from my results screen as its a very negitive because of the amount of work that needed to output Med/Hvy levels of damage so options to drop it would be a nice light mech buff for me

My opinions are mainly based around locusts/fleas/Spiders

My question would be if you wanted to nerf lights what would it be besides speed lights honestly does not have much remove ecm/stealth? then it just becomes a lrm damage feast

[Elric-]

to reclarify post name, Yes should have been more clear, certain lights are to OP. and I thank everybody for there feed back, I had no idea this would open a can O worms like it did, lol

[martian]

0Elric0, on 10 June 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:

to reclarify post name, Yes should have been more clear, certain lights are to OP. and I thank everybody for there feed back, I had no idea this would open a can O worms like it did, lol

I have got a wonderful news for you:

A pair of light 'Mechs have been offered as this month's challenge rewards. I am sure that you will redeem those rewards very soon and you will be able to test these "too powerful" light 'Mechs in the game.


Arctic Cheetah E

A light Clan OmniMech that can be fitted with diverse loadouts thanks to its interchangeable OmniPods.




JVN-11A Javelin

A solid IS light BattleMech with loadouts based around energy weapons.



Have fun!

Edited by martian, 10 June 2021 - 11:31 AM.