619 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

Capt Deadpool, on 21 June 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

I'd say scale, armor, and mobility (specifically agility) are all necessary components to balancing classes against each other. If you scaled mechs to the point even players with the worst aim could hit them, we'd have a light class that was all the size of Jenners or larger with massive armor to compensate, which would drastically reduce the variety of play styles.

This is just a massive design failure on the part of MWO as a whole. Lights in BT and single-player MW games were never balanced for the kind of PvP Arena Shooter MWO is. It was pretty clear that "Information Warfare" was supposed to give Lights a real niche outside of combat but this never materialized and PGI never replaced it with anything.

Similar games give their Light-equivalents things like Boost Dashes or expanded movement options to allow for skill-driven evasion. Without these options, the best case for Lights in the current framework is more armor and significantly more mobility. It kinda sucks, but it's all I can think of that doesn't require an engineer.

Capt Deadpool, on 21 June 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

I know for a fact I am getting hit in my flea by way more players with worse aim with the new PPFLD velocities than I was before... And not directing this at you specifically, but for anyone who feels that they have difficulty aiming, there are tons of browser-based 'aim' and 'reaction' training apps that you can do for 10 or 15 minutes a day that I guarantee will help you. People wouldn't show up at the gym to play pick up basketball games if you never practiced by yourself enough to know you could make a basket? In video games though, for some reason every player thinks they should instantly and automatically have the same skill and aim as everyone else without practicing though, and if something is hard for them that means the offending phenomenon should be nerfed...

I'm not worried about myself. With that said, I don't think "git gud" is appropriate here. The issue isn't "XYZ individual is having trouble with Lights." The issue is that "Tiny lights are disproportionately harder to kill as opponent accuracy decreases." You can take DPS/Spread/Lockon weapons to try to compensate for this, but that also really messes with balance. Streaks are so feast/famine that there's a very fine line between providing an effective counter for Lights in T5 and screwing Lights through T1.

It's just really janky.

When your balance is based on Mobility, T1 pilots are harder to hit and face opponents who aim better while T5 pilots are easier to hit and face opponents who aim worse. This can be balanced.

When your balance is based on size, T1 pilots face opponents who aim better and hit them more easily while T5 pilots face opponents who aim worse and can't hit them as easily. This can't really be balanced equally across tiers very easily.

[1453 R]

Can we please stop with the idiotic nonsense everybody keeps spewing about "LIGHTS SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE AT FIGHTING BECAUSE INFORMATION WARFARE!"

Even if Information warfare wasn't a dirty lie, light 'Mechs have guns. They should be allowed to use those guns. They should, in fact, be good at using those guns if the pilot puts in the work. Some light 'Mechs were not scouts no matter which way you slice it. The Panther is not a scout. The Valkyrie is not a scout. The Firestarter is not a scout. The UrbanMech is ferdamnsher not a scout. To say nothing of the Clans, whose one "Scout" light 'Mech ISN'T EVEN IN THE GAME.

This whole stupid ridiculous idea that a light 'Mech's job should be to spend the first thirty seconds of the fight flitting around and finding the enemy before going off to power down in a corner somewhere and hope their side wins is absolutely ridiculous and needs to go away. I'm honestly disgusted it's persisting even after I spent three years away.

Light 'Mechs get to be valid combatants, too. They are not scanner bots there to make your Fatbro life more convenient.

Edited by 1453 R, 21 June 2021 - 03:15 PM.

[B0oN]

Light mechs too powerful ?
Nope sir .
Try and use one .

[justcallme A S H]

B0oN, on 21 June 2021 - 03:29 PM, said:

Light mechs too powerful ?
Nope sir .
Try and use one .

I do.

And then I prompty stop because I suck in them - too much zoomies for me.

[justcallme A S H]

Nerokar, on 21 June 2021 - 01:35 AM, said:

@justcallme A S H
from someone just returned:
What is happening to lights? I only know players make some maths and rebalance the game. And the next big thing is the resize of mechs. Together with mobility buffs to many bigger chassis it is an impactful change for lights. Will they really get armor to compensate?

Mobilty and quirk passes.

Not just isolated to lights - all mechs are getting the magic ladel of Cauldron stew layered over them.

Resize there is no ETA

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 21 June 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

snip

I don't have even the foggiest idea who you're talking to tbh.

[Darian DelFord]

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 03:58 PM, said:

Resize there is no ETA

And that is really the only real chance most lights have in the current META

[Nightbird]

Darian DelFord, on 21 June 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

And that is really the only real chance most lights have in the current META

Really only the 35 tonners are a bit too large, they're as big as 40 tonners. If they got enough survival quirks to equal the HP of 40 tonners (like the Firestarter already has) then it works out.

[justcallme A S H]

Darian DelFord, on 21 June 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

And that is really the only real chance most lights have in the current META

I'd disagree, as NB said, 35Ts are toooooo fat. Others not so much really.

With mobilty it'll help.
With quirks it'll help.

Saying that it is rescale only that will help isn't really that accurate. It all helps.

It isn't as if Assaults aren't mega-fat either.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 June 2021 - 06:51 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2021 - 06:23 PM, said:

Really only the 35 tonners are a bit too large, they're as big as 40 tonners. If they got enough survival quirks to equal the HP of 40 tonners (like the Firestarter already has) then it works out.

justcallme A S H, on 21 June 2021 - 06:51 PM, said:

I'd disagree, as NB said, 35Ts are toooooo fat. Others not so much really.

With mobilty it'll help.
With quirks it'll help.

Saying that it is rescale only that will help isn't really that accurate. It all helps.

It isn't as if Assaults aren't mega-fat either.

Aye mainly talking about the 35 tonners. They handle like mack trucks now and have for a very long time. I am hopeful that the mobility pass will help a tad with this. Like I said in another post, not much of a numbers guy, gotta test drive.

[pattonesque]

the Firestarter is still way too oversized and yet the mobility/weapons pass means the 8SPL build is actually quite good now.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

im with Deadpool

Its give to many "im will easy Win" Players ,thats will win with the most easy way(and when not im use Cheats )thats lives in here own Bubble and the Gaming Industry ruined many Franchises for This People (C&C).
[color=#202124]There are more than enough people who have to be victorious, no matter in which way, and do not shy away from any violence or manipulation, or the world always tries to shape the rules in such a [/color][color=#202124]way, and the people that they are on the top rung the ladder of power .. the little Kims, Napoleons, Weinsteins of the world, born for the dark side of power, and into the dust with anyone who doubts their infallibility, and there is no difference between game and reality, which are limits there flowing.[/color]
[color=#202124]And the People thats begins with gaming ,and thinking thats big slow Robots the best way is ...im seeing Guys ,thats not can hit a still standing Atlas in 200m over minutes , or try to run away in a Heavy when a Flea is behind without each Fight.[/color]

[Storming Angel]

Most people don't know how to play lights nor do most even play them at all. I find them to be a non-issue unless my armour is gone of course or i face more than one of them by myself.

I also find them good at poking too. The 35 tonners and maybe a few of the 30 tonners are pretty big, if not as big as a 40 tonner in some cases. So they could do with a resize (the ones that make sense anyways).

[MrMadguy]

One of a reasons, why I hate PVP games - is that when some guys are OP and you say on forums, that they're OP, they seem to start to hunt for you in game exactly to prove this fact - that they're OP. This makes situation with balance twice worse. Of course they think, that they prove, that you're noob. But it's just their misconception.

Some Light 'Mech hunted me, when I was in Assault today, in order to backstab me. I guess, in order to prove, that I'm one of that "noobs, who strip all back armor". And of course he two-shot (literally) my back. And I didn't even see him. He appeared for the moment on my radar.

I just hate this argument about "stripped back armor". Why? Because. How much back armor is enough to protect me from Lights? 50/50? Is it joke? Sorry, but I'm not one of that noobs, who strips all armor from back, arms and legs in order to fit maximum firepower. There is reasonable armor distribution. I usually have full armor on CT, STs and arms. Leg armor is usually stripped a little bit in order to pad free tonnage to nearest integer value. And I use some reasonable front/back ratio not to gimp myself against front attacks too much, while having reasonable amount of back armor not to die instantly from back attack.

If Lights require TOO MUCH attention, skill and OMG teamwork to counter them, then, well, it just proves initial statement - they're OP.

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 June 2021 - 11:32 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MrMadguy said:

One of a reasons, why I hate PVP games - is that when some guys are OP and you say on forums, that they're OP, they seem to start to hunt for you in game exactly to prove this fact - that they're OP.

The first question here is: Why do you play a PvP game then, if you hate them?

The second question is: Based on the fact that even with the relatively low population the chances of meeting you in a match are relatively low it's rather doubtful that someone from that even smaller subset of forum users would go out of his way to seemingly prove your claims about OP-ness to "right". That's a mix of you being both a bit paranoid and having a exaggerated view on your own importance.

MrMadguy said:

This makes situation with balance twice worse.

Even if such people existed, that would have no impact on actual game balance. If anything such behaviour could fall into the "harassment" category.

MrMadguy said:

Of course they think, that they prove, that you're noob.

Let's just say that so far you created a fallacious line of reasoning where you started out with an argument of ignorance where you drew the conclusion that just because someone used a Light mech in a rather normal way that taking said action was inspired by your forum participation. Once there you just created a non-sequitur by making claims about such behaviour affecting attempts of balancing and now you're toppiung it off with another argument from ignorance by claiming that the game action was also about showing that "you" are a "noob". So ...

MrMadguy said:

But it's just their misconception.

... you shouldn't be talking about who has "misconceptions" there because you are the one who is basing his claims on misconceptions himself.

MrMadguy said:

Some Light 'Mech hunted me, when I was in Assault today, in order to backstab me.

I guess it would seem quite normal that a Light mech pilot would try to do something like that because most viable Light mechs are pretty much limited to doing exactly that: Trying to hunt down 'lone' mechs and backstab them if possible.

MrMadguy said:

I guess, in order to prove, that I'm one of that "noobs, who strip all back armor".

Some sentences earlier you were sure that "he" did it because of wanting to show that you are a "noob". Now you're just guessing?!
Fun fact though: Even if you don't entirely strip your back armor on an Assault mech, many of the viable Lights are still better off trying to attack you from behind than from the front or center ... and because they are commonly mobile enough to actually get behind you, they'll actually try to do it ... Surprise!

MrMadguy said:

And of course he two-shot (literally) my back.

Now I would love to see a sceenshot of the kill screen that tells what killed you ... but of course you won't have that.

MrMadguy said:

And I didn't even see him. He appeared for the moment on my radar.

Should I even ask whether you moved when it happened or which Light it actually was that killed you?

MrMadguy said:

I just hate this argument about "stripped back armor". Why? Because. How much back armor is enough to protect me from Lights? 50/50? Is it joke? Sorry, but I'm not one of that noobs, who strips all armor from back, arms and legs in order to fit maximum firepower. There is reasonable armor distribution. I usually have full armor on CT, STs and arms. Leg armor is usually stripped a little bit in order to pad free tonnage to nearest integer value. And I use some reasonable front/back ratio not to gimp myself against front attacks too much, while having reasonable amount of back armor not to die instantly from back attack.

By your own words you died to a "two-shot" => The attacker had enough time to shoot twice and you didn't even notice him right until it happened

MrMadguy said:

If Lights require TOO MUCH attention, skill and OMG teamwork to counter them, then, well, it just proves initial statement - they're OP.

The problem with your "if" proposition being that there's no clear bar for what would be a situation where the attention requirement is "too much". As a result you're heading straight into what logically called a subjunction where you have two statements A and B where A->B which logically happens to be an overall true statement (thus seemingly confirming that B is true as well) whenever A is false.
I guess many in here would say that your claim A about fending off Lights requiring "too much" attention, skill and teamwork is just "false" and subsequently your claims about your "OP-ness" statement becomes logically "true" but ultimately meaningless.

Btw.: How is that challenge I gave you comming along? Have you played 10 consecutive matches in the "OP" PIR-1 or PIR-2 and screenshotted every match result to be posted in here next month? End of month is very close now.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 26 June 2021 - 01:17 AM.

[Leone]

You died because you got shot in the back. That's a lack of situational awareness. No amount of light nerfing will save you from that.

~Leone.

[MrMadguy]

Logic doesn't matter. Screenshots and videos do.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MrMadguy said:

Logic doesn't matter.

Logic does matter but ...

MrMadguy said:

Screenshots and videos do.

... those certainly help.
So is that a promise then that in July you'll show me at least 10 match result screenshots from matches in June 2021 where you piloted a PIR-1 or PIR-2?

MrMadguy said:

So what is that screenshot supposed to show exactly within the context of your previous ramblings about a Light pilot "hunting you down" due to the opinion you voiced here in the forums?

Just like with your previous screenshot where you drove a Light yourself (last year in August) you have now shown another single data point where a Light pilot very obvioulsy outmatched his entire own team (inlcuding you) as well as the other team. Looking at that pilot's stats I would appear that he doesn't pull those kinds of numbers that often either or you'd definitely see him with a far better K/D and W/L ratio as well as a 90+ percentile.

[edit]
And insterestingly enough: The Light that killed you (the one on the other team) certainly didn't hunt you down particularly because of the opinions you voiced in here. He just happened to kill you ... provided that it actually was the ACH-E that killed you

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 26 June 2021 - 01:46 AM.

[SafeScanner]

i am impressed with the ACH-C pulling 1000+ dmg gratz to him/her (my record 850dmg )

too many things to take into account, just admit you had a good game plus bonus you won

i seriously dout anyone is deliberately targeting you out of spite only that a good mech is a dead mech just think if i ever hit tier 4 ill be saying hi on the battlefeild (if tier 3 going +1/-1)

[MrMadguy]

SafeScanner, on 26 June 2021 - 02:05 AM, said:

i am impressed with the ACH-C pulling 1000+ dmg gratz to him/her (my record 850dmg )

too many things to take into account, just admit you had a good game plus bonus you won

i seriously dout anyone is deliberately targeting you out of spite only that a good mech is a dead mech just think if i ever hit tier 4 ill be saying hi on the battlefeild (if tier 3 going +1/-1)

I need to admit, that part of his success was due to me, because I sacrificed myself to kill 1st enemy (overheat), that was in good shape to kill him and almost disarmed 2nd enemy prior to that. 3rd enemy was already disarmed by our 3rd teammate, who had very bad aim and failed to hit enemies with his PPC. It was extremely close match, yeah.

Edited by MrMadguy, 26 June 2021 - 03:47 AM.