228 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Right. Not bothering to talk to Khobai anymore. No point in it.

Somebody more conversant with the math mebbe help me out, just for a thought experiment? I can get a Durgan Stabber fitted with two H-peeps and a snub with its full complement of four jets, and MechDB reports a maximum jump height of 26 meters. Two shy of the 28-meter mark TKK's testing has shown is the minimum acceptable height for clearing basic obstacles in a majority of MWO maps, namely getting from the bottom of a Canyon Network canyon to the top of it. Needs jump tree just to get enough hops to get off the ground and onto higher ground.

What would Navid's proposed math do for this specific 'Mech, as something of a case study? We can ignore the Jump Jets skilltree for now since its effect is mediocre at best and also somewhat unpredictable. If I'm being too dumb to live do let me know, my apologies, but the spreadsheets make my eyes water.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 10:27 AM, said:

I already said certain underperforming mechs should get jumpjet buffs via quirks rather than through baseline buffs.

the only baseline buffs needed are for assault mechs because they truly get screwed on jumpjets.

again ive never played a summoner and felt like 40m of jump wasnt good enough.

But that's not a justification for not buffing baseline performance, and the cauldron proposals are already conservative. Being ultraconservative here doesn't make sense, it just makes more work for PGI, guarantees more builds wont be good for longer, and makes sure any changes that are made are not futureproofed, because they were based on the current, still shifting meta, which is currently barely halfway through a massive shift owing to the first major rebalance patches the game has seen in years.

I asked you why you don't think we should have a baseline jumpjet buff, and you answered by saying, in essence " because we should not have a baseline jumpjet buff". You're failing consistently to justify anything you're saying.

[YueFei]

Having a slow ascent rate for Heavies/Assaults is going to work out just fine.

The problem in the past was both the incredible height and rapid ascent rate, because it gave you "high ground" to survey and see most of the map (and shoot into it), and you could push out near your max DPS potential because you could land and hop back up again very quickly.

With a slow ascent rate but long burn time, Heavies and Assaults will be able to use JJs to get access to places. They will also be able to poptart with them, but with a slow ascent rate, it's going to be much lower DPS, which means more space for counterplay against it.

[Nightbird]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

What would Navid's proposed math do for this specific 'Mech, as something of a case study?

If you look at Navid's table of Cauldron proposed changes, you'll get 47 meters. If you look at my table of Cauldron changes, you'll get 43 meters.

I would go with my suggested JJ changes though, which gives 51 meters it'll take 6 seconds to get there but it'll reach the Cauldron's height after the same amount of time and keep burning longer.

Edited by Nightbird, 25 June 2021 - 11:22 AM.

[1453 R]

Thank you, Nightbird. Gotta say, fifteen to twenty meters of additional jump sounds like a hell of an incentive to get back into old jumpy monsters. If the Executioner gets similar-ish gains, it might actually end up being what I always wished the Victors could be. Imagine most of that is in extended burn time rather than impulse? It really is a shame we can't get proper rocket jumps, but I will absolutely take being able to access terrain again on larger 'Mechs. Would even make certain torturous maps (looking squarely at you, Solaris) more playable.

Really hope the Cauldron isn't just jacking my hopes up on this one. I want my hops back T_T

[Wid1046]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

Right. Not bothering to talk to Khobai anymore. No point in it.

Somebody more conversant with the math mebbe help me out, just for a thought experiment? I can get a Durgan Stabber fitted with two H-peeps and a snub with its full complement of four jets, and MechDB reports a maximum jump height of 26 meters. Two shy of the 28-meter mark TKK's testing has shown is the minimum acceptable height for clearing basic obstacles in a majority of MWO maps, namely getting from the bottom of a Canyon Network canyon to the top of it. Needs jump tree just to get enough hops to get off the ground and onto higher ground.

What would Navid's proposed math do for this specific 'Mech, as something of a case study? We can ignore the Jump Jets skilltree for now since its effect is mediocre at best and also somewhat unpredictable. If I'm being too dumb to live do let me know, my apologies, but the spreadsheets make my eyes water.

Nightbird, on 25 June 2021 - 11:17 AM, said:

If you look at Navid's table of Cauldron proposed changes, you'll get 47 meters. If you look at my table of Cauldron changes, you'll get 43 meters.

I would go with my suggested JJ changes though, which gives 51 meters it'll take 6 seconds to get there but it'll reach the Cauldron's height after the same amount of time and keep burning longer.

Since you were asking specifically about whether you'd be able to clear 28 meters in that mech, I think it's worth pointing out that while Navid and Nightbird agree that three jump jets on that mech will also jump high enough to clear that (Navid gets 38 meters while Nightbird gets 34 meters) they disagree on whether 2 jump jets will also work (Navid gets 29 meters while Nightbird gets 25 meters).

[Daneel Hazen]

Attention citizens. I am Star Commander Daneel Hazen and I am going to permit your conversation to continue uninterrupted hereafter, but I would like to say the MW5 jumpjet mechanic is the best jumpjet of all time. Carry on, freebirths.

[1453 R]

Perhaps inform the freebirths of how MW5's jump mechanics work, considering not all of them have played MW5?

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 25 June 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

it just makes more work for PGI,

how does it make more work for PGI to only have to buff assault mech jumpjets? thats less work

and buffing the jumpjet skill tree is something that needs to get done anyway because it sucks

[Nightbird]

MW5 JJs make you invisible upon use, allowing you to disappear from the minds of AI.

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 11:26 AM, said:

Thank you, Nightbird. Gotta say, fifteen to twenty meters of additional jump sounds like a hell of an incentive to get back into old jumpy monsters. If the Executioner gets similar-ish gains, it might actually end up being what I always wished the Victors could be. Imagine most of that is in extended burn time rather than impulse? It really is a shame we can't get proper rocket jumps, but I will absolutely take being able to access terrain again on larger 'Mechs. Would even make certain torturous maps (looking squarely at you, Solaris) more playable.

Really hope the Cauldron isn't just jacking my hopes up on this one. I want my hops back T_T

This is outside the cauldron scope, but I'm of the mind that jumpjets should be less *hovering jet things* and more *barely contained nuclear rockets*.

If you fire your jumpjets for their full duration, the movement you get from them in my view, should be more akin to being flung. Fast, long distances, and almost impossible to precisely control. They should firmly be a mobility tool that lets mechs put themselves in places non-jumpers would never be able to, and also get themselves out of harms way.

Again this is far outside the cauldron's scope.

[1453 R]

You and I are absolutely in agreement on that one, Biggz.

Honestly? I'd almost say that one shouldn't even have a jump bar - just a button that activates your rockets. The fuel all goes at once and you get catapulted skyward like SpaceX is filming it. That's not practical by any means, gotta have some way to feather the fall or make smaller jumps, but if I were tasked with designing an 'Inspired by BattleTech™' video game? Jumpy-jets would be a whole lot more like rocket-powered pogo stick self-zookas than the floaty, super-controllable nonsense we have right now.

That is well outside the Cauldron's scope for now, though. Perhaps when they free up the engineers they'll need to rescale like they promised we can push for other, more drastic engineering changes, but I doubt that'll happen. I will say that allowing a three-jet Class I fatness like a Whale or Highlander to clear the 28 meters to get out of a Canyon trench feels like it should be an absolute minimum baseline. That's sorta the canon default "minimum jumpiness" (three jets for a 90-mneter jump, anyways), and getting out of a Canyon trench feels like the minimum acceptable jumpiness for a fully invested 'Mech in MWO. if you took all your jets and you're not in a weird sub-jet thing like Jester or Hugginz, you should damn well be able to get out of a Canyon trench. Six tons invested in being able to get out of a pit feels like a reasonable ask for the fattest of Fatbros.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

how does it make more work for PGI to only have to buff assault mech jumpjets? thats less work

You're demanding small, conservative buffs that are not future proofed if the meta shifts, and rely on the current top performers remaining top performers. If they ever get nerfed or the meta shifts to something else, (and with at least 1 more major rebalance patch up ahead, its going to shift), then those mechs need to get buffs or they'll be left behind, and if you have anything to say about it, the new top performers will surely need to be nerfed. This is exactly the cycle of nerfing that Paul Inouye ventured on years ago, and, as has been mentioned numerous times, is exactly the path that left this game in balance hell. These are facts you are refusing to acknowledge.

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

and buffing the jumpjet skill tree is something that needs to get done anyway because it sucks

There's a skill tree rework in the road map is there not? So that's not really relevant to the conversation here, which has mostly been centered around people discussing the particulars of baseline jumpjet changes, while you clog up the thread screeching impotently about how the only way forward has to be ultra-conservative Paul Inouye style half measures, which you have thus far failed or refused to justify.

[Bud Crue]

Wid1046, on 25 June 2021 - 09:53 AM, said:

The two areas that I think we disagree on is:
1) Whether jump jets be even more fun than in Navid's proposal if they were far faster and more powerful than what he suggested.
2) Whether greatly buffing jump jets beyond what Navid proposed would require additional balancing.

Honestly, I'd be all for faster and more powerful JJs beyond what is being proposed, if such things were on the table. I don't think it would be much of a balance concern unless we get silly and give say a single assault JJ the ability to lift the mech 50m in .5 sec or something.

I'm fine with the speed, thrust and height values of the JJ proposal put forward by the Cauldron (as well as Nightbird's alternative using updated/more precise math) and don't see any evidence that their imposition would be detrimental to the game. If other values are being seriously considered, then I would have to see the specifics (such as what Nightbird has put forward) and consider especially the potential performance outliers, before being being willing to give them serious consideration.

Right now though, we have the Cauldron's proposals as laid out by Navid. THAT proposal looks fine, and I have yet to see anyone in this or other threads put forth anything approaching evidence to suggest that should those proposals be imposed upon the game, they would result in a detriment to game play akin to a return of the "poptarting Dragon Slayers" of ages gone by.

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 11:49 AM, said:

You and I are absolutely in agreement on that one, Biggz.

Honestly? I'd almost say that one shouldn't even have a jump bar - just a button that activates your rockets. The fuel all goes at once and you get catapulted skyward like SpaceX is filming it. That's not practical by any means, gotta have some way to feather the fall or make smaller jumps, but if I were tasked with designing an 'Inspired by BattleTech™' video game? Jumpy-jets would be a whole lot more like rocket-powered pogo stick self-zookas than the floaty, super-controllable nonsense we have right now.

That is well outside the Cauldron's scope for now, though. Perhaps when they free up the engineers they'll need to rescale like they promised we can push for other, more drastic engineering changes, but I doubt that'll happen. I will say that allowing a three-jet Class I fatness like a Whale or Highlander to clear the 28 meters to get out of a Canyon trench feels like it should be an absolute minimum baseline. That's sorta the canon default "minimum jumpiness" (three jets for a 90-mneter jump, anyways), and getting out of a Canyon trench feels like the minimum acceptable jumpiness for a fully invested 'Mech in MWO. if you took all your jets and you're not in a weird sub-jet thing like Jester or Hugginz, you should damn well be able to get out of a Canyon trench. Six tons invested in being able to get out of a pit feels like a reasonable ask for the fattest of Fatbros.

I would say keep the bar. If you fire off 100% of your fuel, you will get flung 100% far. If you fire off half your fuel, you'll get flung half as far. In both cases your acceleration is the same (fast), and you spend little time in the air. Directional control is almost nil in midair, your reticle shakes like a monster, and it inherits your current momentum if you're moving, or just pushes forward if you're staying still. No jumping on the spot, every jump is always an arc. However with smaller expenditures of fuel, a pilot can still make smaller adjustments, like using jumpjets to more quickly switch directions or avoid damage in a light mech.

There are plenty of ways to make jump jets really fun to play, and i think the best ones laser focus on jumpjets as a tool for mobility, but that's a conversation for another day.

I for one would love to see the Turkina in game, but a mech like that will always be boogeyman'd by the Khobai crew for potentially allowing people to pop tart if its ever allowed to jump properly, and without good jets, its a strictly worse direwolf. If jets were made into a powerful mobility tool, you could side step that conundrum entirely.

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 25 June 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

You're demanding small, conservative buffs that are not future proofed if the meta shifts

no im not. im asking for a buff to assault jumpjets. a buff to the jumpjet skill tree so its worth putting points in. and quirks for a few underpowered mechs that it makes sense to have jumpjet quirks on, like the grasshopper and what not. All of that is future proofed because it all makes perfect sense regardless of how the meta shifts. mechs like the grasshopper should have jumpjet quirks regardless of the state of the meta because lorewise it makes sense for it to have those quirks.

which is way better than what youre trying to push by buffing all the top tier mechs with jumpjets so theyre even stronger. youre trying to force a meta shift which is far worse than being a little conservative.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 12:36 PM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

no im not. im asking for a buff to assault jumpjets. a buff to the jumpjet skill tree. and quirks for a few underpowered mechs that it makes sense to have jumpjet quirks on, namely on mechs that are known for jumping in the lore like the grasshopper and what not.

Which is small and conservative when compared to blanket baseline performance buffs.

[1453 R]

Newsflash, Khobes: Goshawks/Vapor Eagles are well known jumpers in the lore. Their big, swoopy shoulders are specifically called out as being there to help them better control and stabilize jumps. Your standards would call for buffs/quirks to Vapor Eagle jets.

Anyways.

The Turkina is kind of a crap wannabe Dire Whale even with good jets, though it's also more King Crab-shaped than not. Perhaps if it was flatter and had higher arm mounts relative to its cockpit it could eke out a niche as a more peek-friendly Whale alternative, but with the absolute disaster that is the hardpoint selection on most Turkina variants, sadly it'd take more than good jump jets to make the Terror Turkey worth introducing.

But man...good jets would sure as **** be a start.

[Khobai]

1453 R, on 25 June 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Newsflash, Khobes: Goshawks/Vapor Eagles are well known jumpers in the lore. Their big, swoopy shoulders are specifically called out as being there to help them better control and stabilize jumps. Your standards would call for buffs/quirks to Vapor Eagle jets.

Yes but Vapor Eagles also dont need buffs. Again top tier mechs should not be buffed more. Balance takes precedence over lore.

Jumpjet quirks should only be given to mechs that arnt already top tier like the Grasshopper. Because giving quirks to mechs like the Grasshopper helps close the disparity gap between weaker mechs like the Grasshopper and stronger mechs like the Summoner.

The fact we have like 5 different tiers of mechs is a pretty good indication of how screwed up mech balance is. Theres way too much disparity between the worst mechs and the best mechs. Im not sure why Cauldron doesnt seem to be addressing that. Even their mobility buffs were a bit arbitrary/suspect since they buffed some top tier mechs that really didnt need to be better. But at least the mobility buffs were handled on a case by case basis and werent blanket buffs like these jumpjet proposals....

Instead of having like 5 different tiers of mechs there should be a consolidated effort to at least get that disparity down to like 3 tiers at most.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2021 - 12:51 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 25 June 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

...a buff to the jumpjet skill tree so its worth putting points in. and quirks for a few underpowered mechs that it makes sense to have jumpjet quirks on, like the grasshopper and what not...mechs like the grasshopper should have jumpjet quirks regardless of the state of the meta because lorewise it makes sense for it to have those quirks.

Now we're talkin'! Buff to the skills, more lore friendly quirks AND add the Cauldron's proposal.

I second the nomination of the Grasshopper gaining JJ quirks at least on par with the Veagle. In addition, I nominate the Highlander for even greater JJ buffs because A, the chassis sucks overall so why not, and B, because lore demands it.