228 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

The 3 ERPPC + ton of micro pulse/micro ER lasers is the goto meta Executioner right now, so instead of being a subpar build as you said, it is the top comp build for executioners.

But I dont play comp play. Your entire perspective is skewed by comp play.

[redacted]

I dont want to play builds that engage or contribute to a lame camping/sniping meta. That is not fun for me. I have much more fun playing brawling and midrange builds. That is exactly why I will oppose any changes that strengthen a camping/long range meta while weakening the position of brawlers.

I do think jumpjets need buffs in a lot of cases. But in cases where it makes poptarting and sniping better I really have to question if jumpjets actually need buffs. And if the x3 ERPPC executioner is really as effective as you claim then perhaps the executioner doesnt need jumpjet buffs either like I previously thought. I definitely dont think buffing jumpjets equally for all mechs is going to result in any good whatsoever.

Or maybe something just needs to be done to prevent jumping and shooting at the same time. Like the reticle shaking the entire time youre in the air. then theres no issue with buffing jumpjets across the board.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 23 June 2021 - 03:09 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 10:49 PM, said:

But I dont play comp play. Your entire perspective is skewed by comp play.

[redacted]

I dont want to play builds that engage or contribute to a lame camping/sniping meta. That is not fun for me. I have much more fun playing brawling and midrange builds. That is exactly why I will oppose any changes that strengthen a camping/long range meta while weakening the position of brawlers.

I do think jumpjets need buffs in a lot of cases. But it cases where it makes poptarting and sniping better I really have to question if jumpjets actually need buffs.

You know that comp play builds tend to trickle down into quick play, and there's a reason why "meta" builds are meta builds, because they are the most min/maxed builds available for the mech. The particular build I mentioned allows an executioner to trade extremely well at range, use MASC to reposition, and brawl with micro lasers if/when pushed.

As an aside, I don't play comp play anymore either, I haven't even attended EmP practices in months due to real life obligations, doesn't mean strong builds aren't strong builds.

Edit: I see, you are against anything that doesn't subscribe your way of playing. Thanks for the clarification. Just to be clear, I don't like brawling, it's not my preferred way to play, but I would never go out of my way to make sure that brawling as a style is nerfed just because I don't like it. The game needs all styles of play to be effective, so that everyone can enjoy the style that they like to play.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 23 June 2021 - 03:09 AM.
quote cleanup

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2021 - 10:52 PM, said:

You know that comp play builds tend to trickle down into quick play,

the higher the tier the less the trickle down effect

thats why im playing tier 5 on my alt and its way more fun than lower tiers

Quote

but I would never go out of my way to make sure that brawling as a style is nerfed just because I don't like it.

I didnt say you deliberately nerfed brawling. it was most likely an unintentional effect of buffing PPCs/Gauss.

but brawlings not in a good state right now. a lot of brawling weapons like SRMs just feel bad right now. Midrange and longrange builds in general perform much better than brawling right now.

and I dont see how buffing poptarts and snipers with better jumpjets improves the state of the game for brawlers.

Edited by Khobai, 22 June 2021 - 11:42 PM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 11:34 PM, said:

the higher the tier the less the trickle down effect

thats why im playing tier 5 on my alt and its way more fun than lower tiers



I didnt say you deliberately nerfed brawling. it was most likely an unintentional effect of buffing PPCs/Gauss.

but brawlings not in a good state right now. a lot of brawling weapons like SRMs just feel bad right now.

and I dont see how buffing poptarts and snipers with better jumpjets improves the state of the game for brawlers.

Brawling is just fine right now (just because I don't like to brawl doesn't mean I don't still play it every so often), it just means you have to be smart on the approach (that whole thinking man's shooter and all...). As a brawler, if you wander into the open, you die (really applies to any playstyle really). If brawl mechs get into brawl range, things die, really fast.

Back on topic though, improved jumpjets as a whole also benefits brawling, because it allows you to close distances/disengage over terrain that you otherwise couldn't have before.

Edit: At tier 5, anything goes, balance changes don't really affect anything down there, with maybe the exception of LRM buffs.

Edited by Vxheous, 22 June 2021 - 11:48 PM.

[Leone]

Ummm, Hate to break it to you, but tier five is the low tier.

~Leone.

[Khobai]

Leone, on 22 June 2021 - 11:43 PM, said:

Ummm, Hate to break it to you, but tier five is the low tier.

~Leone.

1 is a lower number than 5

therefore tier 1 is a lower tier than tier 5

it is lower numbered tier but it is a higher ranked tier.

i feel like I should not have to explain counting to 5 to people.

Vxheous, on 22 June 2021 - 11:43 PM, said:

Back on topic though, improved jumpjets as a whole also benefits brawling, because it allows you to close distances/disengage over terrain that you otherwise couldn't have before.

brawlers could already do that without needing jumpjet buffs. current jumpjets are more than sufficient for that purpose.

jumpjet buffs definitely do not help brawlers more than snipers.

that is the entire reason PGI nerfed jumpjets. It wasnt to hurt brawlers. it was to hurt poptarting.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2021 - 12:05 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

1 is a lower number than 5

therefore tier 1 is a lower tier than tier 5

i feel like I should not have to explain counting to 5 to people.



brawlers could already do that without needing jumpjet buffs. current jumpjets are more than sufficient for that purpose.

jumpjet buffs definitely do not help brawlers more than snipers.

5 is a lower number than 1 when it's a ranking system.

Brawlers will jump faster than they do now with the JJ changes, even with a single jumpjet.

[justcallme A S H]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

The 3 ERPPC + ton of micro pulse/micro ER lasers is the goto meta Executioner right now, so instead of being a subpar build as you said, it is the top comp build for executioners.

Anyone thinking the EXE Tri Peep/micros is bad, not good or otherwise - well.......... I don't even know what to say other than very, very wrong.

It's strong in QuickPlay & also Comp. FP it is a bit situational due to deck tonnage limits.

Main issue with QP is people need to play it a bit smarter than the ole rotation game. Otherwise it's solid since the patches and MASC makes it delicious.

The playerbase just hasn't caught on yet which tends to happen and Comp sets the scene and players catch on and it filters down.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 23 June 2021 - 12:41 AM.

[Ekson Valdez]

While this whole brawler-midrange-sniper balance discussion has some remote relevance for this Jumpjet Discussion, please do not derail the original topic. Feel free to open a new discussion on the state of the different playstyles.
Thank you.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 23 June 2021 - 12:47 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Actually just dawned on me as well.

The EXE is solid now, because it is... JJ adjustements are gonna make it very very potent and really interesting on a lot of vertical maps like Mining, Bog and even new Polar. Hmmm

[Ekson Valdez]

Off-topic balance discussion split into a new topic:
Balance of the Playstyles

Please do not insist on derailing topics and open a new topic yourself next time.
Thank you.

[pbiggz]

the moral of the story here is simple.

Jumpjets are cool. They should be powerful and fun to use. As they existed before, paul jumpjets were basically wasted tonnage, a kneejerk mega nerf to stop people on this very forum from whining to him.

I reject any arguments here that display a fear of things being powerful or useful. Just because it's not your playstyle, doesn't mean you have any right or fair grounds to actually oppose a change. Jumpjets should be useful, even if you don't like using them. This game doesn't get balanced around you.

[1453 R]

Poptarting is an issue of targeting, not an issue of jet performance. Having good jets is important to poptarts, yes - but so is a few other things that make way more sense to deal with than having good jets, which should be important to anything with jump jets.

Khobai, the game is not catering to your specific need for brawlers to be the undisputed lords of the battlefield again. I was here in the 2013-ish days when any weapon with a range over 270 meters was considered a waste of space, tonnage, and time and the AC/20+SRM6's Atlas D-DC was the ultimate weapon. It f*cking sucked. Mobility didn't matter for spit and skirmishing was a nonthing. it was bad. I'd rather go back to the days of Poptarts, honestly. Because the game has tools now for dealing with those - if Poptarts with slow, finicky, low-DPS alphas become the norm again, I'll get in my dagger rogue Black Lanners and start disrupting their **** with a 150kph (w/M.A.S.C.) ECM bastid with 55-tonner armor and a plethora of daggers. Poptarts do poorly when forced to fight in the open, especially at the tiers we're at.

Because lemme tell ya, Khobai. if you play in T5, like I do? Poptarts aren't a problem. Nobody can hit **** at the apex of a jump in T5. Not consistently enough to matter. People generally can't hit **** with their feet planted firmly on the ground. Even when people do crib meta 'Mechs offa whichever website tracks that junk, they don't use them well. I see trip-peep Vapor Eagles poking around corners all the time instead of jumping over barricades, and the Veagle is more-or-less the new Dragon Slayer when it comes to poptart kings. The 'Mech you fear coming back already exists. Trip-peep Veagles with jet quirks and six Class IV jets can jump more than well enough to tart around all day, and they ain't taken over the meta yet.

Jump jets deserve to be awesome. Not only because they're a serious investment for a lot of machines, but because the high-flying Rocket Manning cavalry skirmisher playstyle is awesome and it deserves to have its niche as much as the other styles do. Don't tell me you've never piloted a Viper just to go out there, push the jump button, and grin as you soar into space on proper jump jets. If making jump jets awesome again requires Piranha to finally do something about airborne targeting, then fine. That can happen later, or the Cauldron can fitz with XML values to ameliorate the problem until an engineer can spare ten minutes from desperately trying to make MW5 less mediocre.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 08:55 PM, said:

Dividing 4g by mech_ton in your v(t) calculation doesn't make sense because gravity is force applied proportionally to all mass, a feather falls at the same speed as a balling ball without atmosphere and all.

Yup, good catch. I noticed this when I was tinkering around with it a bit more last night. This is the updated version:



Key:



Edit: Ignore the '4' in the first equation. I meant to get rid of all those to make it easier to substitute 'g' for other values rather than relying on MWO-g = 4g.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 23 June 2021 - 05:16 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Even with the tweak with jump jets, gravity baseline should be reduced then have gravity have an effect on maps. With a lower gravity baseline, jumping jets would take longer to land, making them visible for a longer period of time, more time for return fire. They would still get their snap shots off but would no longer have that peek/hide setting.

Then with lower gravity baseline, have gravity differences on the maps, some maps the mechs take even longer to land, others more quickly. imho, this is what is currently missing.

[Nightbird]

Vlad Ward, on 23 June 2021 - 05:12 AM, said:

Yup, good catch. I noticed this when I was tinkering around with it a bit more last night. This is the updated version:

There is an initial thrust pulse in MWO where you activate JJs and it instantly sets your velocity at v(0) to thrust_init/mech_ton. This number is not affected by the number of jump jets. I think you mix up thrust and thrust_init in your math. You also didn't define sin(T).

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 23 June 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

There is an initial thrust pulse in MWO where you activate JJs and it instantly sets your velocity at v(0) to thrust_init/mech_ton. This number is not affected by the number of jump jets. I think you mix up thrust and thrust_init in your math. You also didn't define sin(T).

T is the angle that the thrust is being applied at. You can set it to pi/2 rad if you want to assume that all thrust is directed purely in the z-direction and the term disappears. Considering 'Mechs do move in the lateral direction during jumps, I figured it was worth including so I could play with it.

I treated thrust_init as a force acting on the 'Mech for some arbitrarily short time period at the beginning of the jump. At time t0, thrust transitions from thrust_init to thrust_burn and the equation of motion changes.

Do we have confirmation from somewhere that thrust_init is really just a v(0) and ignores the number of jets? This seems... weird. At best, it's a terrible naming convention.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 23 June 2021 - 07:12 AM.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 22 June 2021 - 11:34 PM, said:

the higher the tier the less the trickle down effect

thats why im playing tier 5 on my alt and its way more fun than lower tiers

You're not a bad player, so what I think is happening here is that, on your alt, you are playing with folks who are either brand new or barely sentient, so you can do any old thing and not get immediately punished for it. That does sound like fun.

[Nightbird]

I would assume the angle is directly vertical for simplicity, since you can walk backwards a bit to do a perfect vertical jump.

I got the usage for thrust_init from Navid's initial post, he hasn't replied to my question on his formula yet (whether it comes from PGI or the Cauldron)

[Khobai]

pattonesque, on 23 June 2021 - 07:12 AM, said:

You're not a bad player, so what I think is happening here is that, on your alt, you are playing with folks who are either brand new or barely sentient, so you can do any old thing and not get immediately punished for it. That does sound like fun.

that is exactly what im doing lol