228 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

It's one of those things Piranha promised to do when they started this whole thing. By this point we all know how Piranha Promises™ work, but eh. Don't spend anything you don't mind losing and just enjoy whatever ride we get out of this pandemic-induced resurgence.

[Bud Crue]

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2021 - 05:13 PM, said:

It is on the roadmap - as far as a fix or anything - there is nothing quantified there.

Any guess as to time line (I am not asking for any thing definite, but are we talking like 6 months out, etc.?) and any initial thoughts yet on scope? I'll go look at the road map. Thanks.

Also, and this just occurred to me, and I know it would do nothing to settle down the more vocal negative nancy's, but for the casuals and new comers I think it would be a good idea if the Cauldron folks put links in their signature blocks for relevant aspects of their efforts (roadmap, most recent patch/changes, the discord where input is taken, the official forum threads for the same, etc.). Sorry for the digression.

Edited by Bud Crue, 27 June 2021 - 05:26 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

When I say nothing quantified - that's exactly it lol... Literally a line on roadmap IIRC and that's it. Has not been discussed more than a single line.

Rescale has been at least and just have to wait/see if it happens as there is a bit of work needed to make it happen.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2021 - 04:56 PM, said:

With the JJ proposal the JJ tree will be viable to use.

Navid already explained that and even posted videos showing it - so people can/will use it.
I have mechs with JJ tree already, if proposed values go in that will be excellent for them.

The jump jet skill tree will probably become viable for some light mechs, but I doubt that it will start being used on anything heavier. Medium mech jump jets aren't really getting buffed (initial thrust is increasing a bit, but this doesn't result in much of a difference) and while the jump jets on heavies and assaults are increasing by higher percentages, they'll still be less effective than jump jets on medium mechs.

If people currently don't use the jump jet skill tree on medium mechs, what makes you think that they'll start considering it viable for mediums, heavies, and assaults after the change? The change is still a good thing, I just don't agree that it will make the jump jet skill tree relevant for most weight classes.

[justcallme A S H]

Because I have Assaults with the JJ tree?

I also have Heavy and Meds with it too.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 28 June 2021 - 03:53 AM, said:

Because I have Assaults with the JJ tree?

I also have Heavy and Meds with it too.

The jump jet skill tree is widely panned as being useless. I'm not arguing that absolutely no one uses it, I'm saying that most don't. Your answer makes it seem like you only considered yourself and not the player population at large.

The jump jet changes don't need to make the jump jet tree viable for most classes, you just made it sound like you thought it would change most people's minds on that section of the skill tree.

[justcallme A S H]

Most don't because currently it's not that useful. If you make it useful by way of JJs actually being half decent - you might then find people cotton onto that and start using it themselves.

If JJs are better I would absolutely be looking at JJ tree more. If I am it would make sense others would too.

That's how META and various other things form, by playing and experimentation and soon that 1-2 guys become 100s and then 1000s.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 28 June 2021 - 04:08 AM, said:

Most don't because currently it's not that useful. If you make it useful by way of JJs actually being half decent - you might then find people cotton onto that and start using it themselves.

If JJs are better I would absolutely be looking at JJ tree more. If I am it would make sense others would too.

That's how META and various other things form, by playing and experimentation and soon that 1-2 guys become 100s and then 1000s.

Yes, I understand how meta works and you still aren't answering my question. I'll try to simplify my question a bit for you in the hopes that you at least understand what I'm asking.

1) Most people currently think that the jump jet skill tree is useless.
2) This includes for Medium mechs.
3) Jump jets for Medium mechs are going to be basically the same after this change (initial thrust will increase a bit, but it won't result in much of a difference)
4) The jump jets for Heavies and Assaults will receive larger percentage buffs, but won't be buffed beyond Medium mech jump jets.

Taking the above points together: Most people currently don't use the jump jet skill tree for Medium mechs. Medium mech jump jets won't change much. Jump jets for Heavies, and Assaults won't be better than where Medium mechs are now.

So with these points above, if most people don't consider the jump jet tree to be viable for Medium mechs currently, why would they think that the jump jet tree is viable afterwards?

To be clear: I am not saying that jump jets should not be changed.

[1453 R]

Most people don't use the jump jet tree, I imagine, because most people don't jump. The meta has been accounting for jump jets being super pants-on-cow useless for many years now. ~15% buffs to "Totally Useless" is still totally useless. If jump jets were not largely pointless on anything but Vipers and Veagles, perhaps the meta would shift to accommodate that notion?

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 28 June 2021 - 05:48 AM, said:

Most people don't use the jump jet tree, I imagine, because most people don't jump. The meta has been accounting for jump jets being super pants-on-cow useless for many years now. ~15% buffs to "Totally Useless" is still totally useless. If jump jets were not largely pointless on anything but Vipers and Veagles, perhaps the meta would shift to accommodate that notion?

Likely the hate for the jj tree is actually a bit over-exaggerated. Yeah its kinda useless but it probably helps if you actually build a mech that jumps, like with full jumpjets. It just takes so much investment in tonnage and points right now that it's hardly worth it without a baseline performance increase.

[1453 R]

Pretty much.

"Nobody takes the jump jet tree!" True - because nobody ever takes more than one frickin' jump jet and spending a bunch of points for jet performance doesn't really scan when you have one jet. If jets were worth maxing out? You'd likely see more use of the jump jet tree. I use it on 'Mechs with max or near-max jet loads and it does seem to make at least some difference. Sometimes.

[bbihah]

And nothing for us 40 ton players? Fantastic. How about no.

[pbiggz]

bbihah, on 28 June 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

And nothing for us 40 ton players? Fantastic. How about no.

40 tonners can jump dude. What are you going on about?

[justcallme A S H]

Wid1046, on 28 June 2021 - 04:55 AM, said:

So with these points above, if most people don't consider the jump jet tree to be viable for Medium mechs currently, why would they think that the jump jet tree is viable afterwards?

Like anything else.

Why do people bring LPPC and LGRs now? They were noted in the patch notes.

If JJs are patched hopefully patch notes make reference aboutt before/after differences. Players then make a choice just as they do with anything else.


It is no different to people running around with Advanced Zoom on a mech with Small Lasers. I see LRMboats without Target Decay yet they have Seismic. I see Assaults with full mobilty tree.

Just because you or I don't use it does not mean people are. From what I see with many streamers skill trees they are all over the shops as they customise how they want.

[Kynesis]

The key to pop-tarting is high initial thrust. The simplest answer seems to be scaling power as fuel is used.
The point at which as a player you generally are most desperate for more thrust, is toward the end of your jump/available fuel.

[pbiggz]

Kynesis, on 18 July 2021 - 09:14 PM, said:

The key to pop-tarting is high initial thrust. The simplest answer seems to be scaling power as fuel is used.
The point at which as a player you generally are most desperate for more thrust, is toward the end of your jump/available fuel.

I dont know if its quite that simple, but I really am not worried poptarting will come back. There are safety measures in place we didn't have before.

[1453 R]

I said it before, I'll say it again:

The common/popular triple-cERPPC Vapor Eagle meta build is the most dangerous poptart that's ever lived. It's vastly more dangerous than the Dragon Slayer ever was. It's faster, nimbler, much easier to use and pilot, and it takes up vastly less space in a group drop or a competitive game. Plus you don't have to spend fifty bucks to get one - anybody can buy and outfit a Pop Veeg for maybe fifteen million Spacebux. If the trip-peep Veagle had existed during the Dragon Slayer's run as the King of the Meta, the Veagle would've looked at this chubby retired-dad beer belly muhfugger huffing and puffing its way through half a Pop Snipe and said "awwh, that's adorable!" whilst annihilating worlds.

The Vapor Eagle is considered a top tier 'Mech, yes. It is by no means a meta-dominating, playstyle-strangling monster beast. Someone running a Pop Veeg without truly exceptional aim dies for free to any sort of close pressure, and "close pressure" is faster than it's ever been. The amount of dakka that modern midrange brawlers can fling at poptarts even mid-pop is ludicrous by Old Dragon Slayer standards. Dragon Slayers would never have gotten away with any of their nonsense if their targets had been able to return fire with 4+ Ultra autocannons rated 5 or higher, as a majority of assault gunboats now do.

A poptart can pop up, deliver three PPC blasts for thirty damage targeted and fifteen splash...whilst catching forty damage in buckshot from that quad LBX Annihilator who's learned they now get to play a delightful game of Duck Hunt. There's only so many times a Veagle can make that trade without losing something, and that number is smaller than the number of times the Annihilator gets to do so. To say nothing of AC/2 spam machines, which have quick-firing, high-velocity, highly accurate death on command they can use to punish any opening they see. A predictable poptart - which is every poptart in Puglandia - will get their snoot booped clean off the second and beyond times they try their schtick.

"Poptarts are bad!" is not a reason to leave jumpjets terrible. We've already got the most dangerous poptart that's ever lived in the game right now, and it's merely 'Good', not 'This is killing MWO as we know it! DX' overstronk.

Edited by 1453 R, 19 July 2021 - 07:19 AM.

[pattonesque]

^^^

I totally get how people could have PTSD from the bad old days of the Dragon Slayer and Highlander and CTF-3D, and I get how frustrating it can be to be hit with poptart PPCs, but you have so many options to counter it these days

[1453 R]

It's been a couple of weeks-ish since the jump jet changes have landed. I find myself curious - has anyone noticed a vast resurgence of poptarting? I'll admit I've spent a goodly chunk of the last bit in the new Path of Exile league, but I've had me a couple of solid nights of MWO, and I'll say this - I didn't see duck dooky dicc-all for poptarts. Even the 'mechs with poptarty armaments weren't tarting pops with them. I've seen a few Pop Veags, but they tend to stick to the ground and poke around corners like nitwits rather than pop snipe.

Anybody in higher tiers seeing different behavior? Or was the fearmongering about how better jump jets would Ruin Everything Forever just that?

[Nightbird]

The buff was too small to change things for assaults. Lights don't carry enough weapons to poptart but the mobility is nice.