83 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 June 2021 - 10:02 AM, said:

Can that alpha?

No. You have to bank fire it by grouping the first set of heavy smalls up the heat limit then all the other weapons in another bank. Fire off the first set then wait a split second for the second. A bit more finicky to pull off but quite doable.

[CarloArmato]

Piranhas are not OP, they can one shot assaults.

[Leone]

Yup. And, guess what, assaults can do the same to piranhas. That seems fair to me.

~Leone.

[CarloArmato]

Leone, on 28 June 2021 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yup. And, guess what, assaults can do the same to piranhas. That seems fair to me.

~Leone.


Assault mech are supposed to bring a freak-ton of weaponry and annihilate anything dumb enough to stay inside their crosshair... But assaults can't move at 150 km/h, more than often they can't poke / trade freely against anyone and they can't hug another assault leg's to exploit low torso pitch values and avoid all incoming damage at all (read: they need to be protected from anything maneuverable enough to chip away their armor)

But that's not why I'm complaining about Piranhas: there is no other light capable of dishing out +12 dps heatless or 65 damage alpha strike (10 HSL).
Why should I use ANY other light when a piranha is simply faster, smaller (harder to hit) and has more stable DPS?

EDIT: to be completely fair, I'm aware there is too much pinpoint damage right now, but that doesn't mean Piranha should be buffed further. Instead, every other light should be buffed because they are quite useless right now (with very few exceptions, like the other main offender which is the Flea)

EDIT 2: now that I think about it do you remember how many Mist Lynx G where running around when they came out? The same applies to piranhas.

Edited by CarloArmato, 28 June 2021 - 01:45 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

CarloArmato, on 28 June 2021 - 01:31 AM, said:

Leone, on 28 June 2021 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yup. And, guess what, assaults can do the same to piranhas. That seems fair to me.

~Leone.


Assault mech are supposed to bring a freak-ton of weaponry and annihilate anything dumb enough to stay inside their crosshair... But assaults can't move at 150 km/h, more than often they can't poke / trade freely against anyone and they can't hug another assault leg's to exploit low torso pitch values and avoid all incoming damage at all (read: they need to be protected from anything maneuverable enough to chip away their armor)

But that's not why I'm complaining about Piranhas: there is no other light capable of dishing out +12 dps heatless or 65 damage alpha strike (10 HSL).
Why should I use ANY other light when a piranha is simply faster, smaller (harder to hit) and has more stable DPS?

EDIT: to be completely fair, I'm aware there is too much pinpoint damage right now, but that doesn't mean Piranha should be buffed further. Instead, every other light should be buffed because they are quite useless right now (with very few exceptions, like the other main offender which is the Flea)

EDIT 2: now that I think about it do you remember how many Mist Lynx G where running around when they came out? The same applies to piranhas.

mate, there's also no other 20t mech with movement so restricted as a PIR. it is quite easy to track and one-shot.
and let's not forget about the horrible, horrible cockpit.
maybe we all should play some PIRs this weekend, just to put theory-things into a reality-perspective.

[Leone]

CarloArmato, on 28 June 2021 - 01:31 AM, said:

But that's not why I'm complaining about Piranhas: there is no other light capable of dishing out +12 dps heatless or 65 damage alpha strike (10 HSL).

JR7-IIC

~Leone.

[1453 R]

Gotta admit, I'm a whole lot more cautious of the Surmbomber JIIC than I am of fish. A good Surmbomber can spank you exactly once, leave you open and vulnerable, and if it gets a second well-placed spank that can be all it takes for most mediums and a few heavies. Leone's version has ****-all for ammo, but if the JIIC pilot is conservative with their shots and goes only for sure bets, it's still a nasty potent knife-fighter.

Or, y'know, the ol' MLX-G nonsense that delivers 13.10 DPS (note: higher than 12+!) for close to a minute before overheating. Dunno 'bout you, but I haven't encountered a single butt in MWO that can take 13 DPHS for close to a minute without dissolving into metal confetti. Hell, I can't think of any fronts in MWO that could eat 13 DPS for a minute without blowing up, under the assumption the pilot is asleep enough to just suck it down. Close enough to 'heatless' to make no nevermind. Generally more worried about Mist Lynxes than Doomfish myself as well, given that the Lynx has much better agility with its plethora of jump jets. Plus they can see what they're doing, unlike anyone in the horrible Penalty Box cockpit of a Piranha. That and anybody in a Mist Lynx is in that cockpit because they know what they're up to, as opposed to the overhyped-to-hell Doomfish.

Or we could talk about the meta-approved Zapcubus, with a 58-point heavy laser alpha it can dump all at once instead of in two distinct volleys - y'know, like an alpha strike - from well outside the range of the HSL Doomfish. Again - two of these to most any butt in the game and that butt dissolves into commemorative glitter.

Doomfish are just Doomfish. They're dangerous if you blow them off and ignore them, and they're also dangerous if you treat them as Harbingers of the Apocalypse and spam the "NEED ASSISTANCE!" button instead of shooting them because their arsenal spooks you. if you treat them as a P90 strapped to a tin lunchbox with feet and shoot the freaking fish, you will have sixty percent fewer problems. All the really dangerous light pilots favor other chassis anyways - the Wolfhounds, stealth Fleas, Mist Lynxes, even the bloody UrbanMechs. Piranhas are "I feel like cosplaying a box of firecrackers tonight" or "I got taken in by the hype and am trying to make the best of a bad deal."

Edited by 1453 R, 28 June 2021 - 02:28 PM.

[Wid1046]

CarloArmato, on 28 June 2021 - 01:31 AM, said:

[redacted]
But that's not why I'm complaining about Piranhas: there is no other light capable of dishing out +12 dps heatless or 65 damage alpha strike (10 HSL).
Why should I use ANY other light when a piranha is simply faster, smaller (harder to hit) and has more stable DPS?
[redacted]

Well Leone already showed that the alpha strike isn't true, so here's a few light mech builds that can do over 12 dps sustained.
RVN-H (13.01 dps sustained without skills)
MLX-G (14.41 dps sustained without skills)
JVL-L (12.35 dps sustained without skills)
OSR-1P (13.06 dps sustained without skills)
FS9-FS (12.15 dps sustained without skills)

I expect that there's quite a few more, I just checked a few for potential brawl builds.

[Meep Meep]

Wid1046, on 28 June 2021 - 02:31 PM, said:

Well Leone already showed that the alpha strike isn't true, so here's a few light mech builds that can do over 12 dps sustained.
RVN-H (13.01 dps sustained without skills)
MLX-G (14.41 dps sustained without skills)
JVL-L (12.35 dps sustained without skills)
OSR-1P (13.06 dps sustained without skills)
FS9-FS (12.15 dps sustained without skills)

I expect that there's quite a few more, I just checked a few for potential brawl builds.

Have you tried those builds out on a test map vs the atlas on frozen city? It has 20ish back armor so its a good control to see how fast you can bring down an assault. I ask because from my own testing the dps numbers you get from the mechnav site don't necessarily jive up to actual time to kill for a backstab. There are other factors like chance of critical hit and amount of weapons in play with critical bonuses.

[justcallme A S H]

MG crit chance of course plays a part once armour has been reduced.

[Meep Meep]

Lasers also have improved critical chance on structure and pir can boat those too. Both mg and laser in combination are pretty mean stuff as we all know. I think those builds he crafted will kill fairly quick on a backstab but not as quick as a pir with equal dps stats.

[CarloArmato]

Sigh...

Leone, on 28 June 2021 - 01:48 PM, said:

JR7-IIC

~Leone.

Not a valid comparison:

• SRM6 spreads like hell, you must be at literally point blank range to fully apply damage to a single component, while a HSL boat piranha can still apply full damage to a single component at 130 meters pre-skills
  
• Only 2.5 ton of ammo?
  
• It's a 35 tonner (almost twice the tonnage) and it is way bigger and easier to hit.

Wid1046, on 28 June 2021 - 02:31 PM, said:

Well Leone already showed that the alpha strike isn't true, so here's a few light mech builds that can do over 12 dps sustained.
RVN-H (13.01 dps sustained without skills)
MLX-G (14.41 dps sustained without skills)
JVL-L (12.35 dps sustained without skills)
OSR-1P (13.06 dps sustained without skills)
FS9-FS (12.15 dps sustained without skills)

I expect that there's quite a few more, I just checked a few for potential brawl builds.

RVN-H: 118 km/h, good luck chasing/flanking/approaching anything with that
MLX-G: 30 seconds of dakka, really?
JVL-L: it could be interesting, but unluckily it's bigger and also slower. I own it and didn't bothered finish skilling it because of how easy to hit it is.
OSR-1P: SRM means point blank range to reallistically apply damage to kill your target, otherwise it spreads like hell. No wonder nobody uses SRM anymore and no, I don't count it.
FS9-S: like the javelin, bigger and slower, plus it has sub-par mobility compared to other 35 tonners, so an even bigger no. On a similar note, I own and fully skilled a Firestarter Ember 4xSPL + 4xHMG (with 25% MG RoF quirk) and believe me, it doesn't perform like a piranha.

[Leone]

I have refuted your arguments, Quickly, add more quantifiers!

~Leone.

[Meep Meep]

Leone, on 28 June 2021 - 11:12 PM, said:

I have refuted your arguments, Quickly, add more quantifiers!

~Leone.

Viability does have a role you know since raw numbers can be misleading.

[CarloArmato]

Leone, on 28 June 2021 - 11:12 PM, said:

I have refuted your arguments, Quickly, add more quantifiers!

~Leone.

No, you brought to the table SRMs, which are one of the worst weapons in the game (IMHO any missile weapon is quite garbage) and you are comparing the spreaded damage of SRMs to the accuracy of lasers at any range (up to optimal). Following this line of thought, would you dare to say that Fafnir Wrath is OP because it can fit 3xMRM40 and no other assault can boat so much damage?

[Pro secco]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 28 June 2021 - 03:13 AM, said:

mate, there's also no other 20t mech with movement so restricted as a PIR. it is quite easy to track and one-shot.
and let's not forget about the horrible, horrible cockpit.
maybe we all should play some PIRs this weekend, just to put theory-things into a reality-perspective.

Oh, its on!
Got enough streamers to buy me a Cipher on sale, i plan to play every single solo drop with one for at least the whole month of july. I am no near as a good light player but i am preatty confident i would estract some fun data out of this social esperiment.

[Meep Meep]

Pro secco, on 29 June 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

Oh, its on!
Got enough streamers to buy me a Cipher on sale, i plan to play every single solo drop with one for at least the whole month of july. I am no near as a good light player but i am preatty confident i would estract some fun data out of this social esperiment.

Immediately invest in radar dep as staying hidden until you strike is the key to success in this mech. It's not a skirmisher or brawler or anti light. It's meant for one thing and that's to backstab from the shadows and go for wounded mechs late game.

I'd recommend the op's fit to start as its easy to manage and doesn't really need any firepower nodes to work so you can dump most of your points into speed tweak after radar dep then put the rest where you want.

CIPHER

edit: Actually you can skirmish a bit in the cipher but its not really optimal and takes most of the firepower tree to make viable but you can fit it this way and fight at 300~400m. I'd say a cougar or adder is probably a better choice for this type of play but they are not nearly as mobile.

CIPHER This Is My Axe

Edited by Meep Meep, 29 June 2021 - 02:17 AM.

[The Basilisk]

I O O percent KongLord, on 24 June 2021 - 06:12 AM, said:

Watch out someone might come whine that they've been dying plenty in their piranha

jep me
No realy but thats cuz I'm just old and slow and get dizzy easily when trying to dart around in my piranha.
And then there is also the thing with the luckshots you get then and there.
Feels too random for me sometime you get 3 or 4 kills and make top damage and next time you get Gaussed 20secs after leaving spawn without seeing the enemy.
No realy light game play did not change for me that much its just that the amount of ppl using high calliber frontloaded weapons has increased and so did my frequency of randomly beeing luckshot/one or twohitted.

[Wid1046]

CarloArmato, on 28 June 2021 - 01:31 AM, said:

[redacted]
But that's not why I'm complaining about Piranhas: there is no other light capable of dishing out +12 dps heatless or 65 damage alpha strike (10 HSL).
Why should I use ANY other light when a piranha is simply faster, smaller (harder to hit) and has more stable DPS?
[redacted]

You claimed that there is no other light capable of doing 12 or more dps sustained and that is what I disproved. You even bolded and underlined your claim.

CarloArmato, on 28 June 2021 - 11:09 PM, said:

[redacted]
OSR-1P: SRM means point blank range to reallistically apply damage to kill your target, otherwise it spreads like hell. No wonder nobody uses SRM anymore and no, I don't count it.
[redacted]

I find your claim that using an SRM2 doesn't count because it 'spreads like hell' hilarious. Especially since if you go to the same optimal range as the Piranhas that you claim are so overpowered, you'll be point blank anyways.

The builds that I created not optimized since I just spent a couple minutes finding a few builds to disprove your point about Piranhas being the only light mechs that could dish out 12 or more dps sustained. Even so, they are all viable builds (yes, even the MLX-G. It does have 50% more ammo than the Cipher build that started this whole thread and would quickly finish off mechs once their armor has been removed).

If you want an exact clone of the Piranha, does it have to be as flimsy and have a cockpit that blocks as much vision as well?

[Meep Meep]

Wid1046, on 29 June 2021 - 04:43 AM, said:

The builds that I created not optimized since I just spent a couple minutes finding a few builds to disprove your point about Piranhas being the only light mechs that could dish out 12 or more dps sustained. Even so, they are all viable builds (yes, even the MLX-G. It does have 50% more ammo than the Cipher build that started this whole thread and would quickly finish off mechs once their armor has been removed).

Again viability is key here too. The lynx build actually has less ammo at 300 shots per hmg vs 500 for the cipher. The cipher also has plentiful energy backup if it runs dry on mg ammo where the lynx is mainly relying on those 300 shots for the majority of its damage output. Two er smalls just aint gonna do much to either open up a mech or keep the fight going.

This will work far better at stripping armor so you can crit them out.

MLX-G

Edited by Meep Meep, 29 June 2021 - 05:02 AM.