261 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

KodiakGW, on 01 July 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

Please link where I specifically said Cauldron members.

So who is the 'they' you reference?

KodiakGW, on 01 July 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

I hope I'm proven wrong about all my points.

Are you meaning this time or all the other times you've already proven to be wrong?

Just trying to clarify if you think your statements from weeks/months ago are going to be proven right "eventually" or you're in present tense.

[Vxheous]

KodiakGW, on 01 July 2021 - 04:51 PM, said:

Please link where I specifically said Cauldron members. But, he is a member of your team.

Yep, again "completely misrepresenting" just like last time when I posted about the queues never splitting again. Just need to read posts, see who likes them, and make a determination what is not being directly said.

https://i.imgur.com/v7WOGvi.jpeg

I hope I'm proven wrong about all my points. But, from I see NOT being done, I doubt it.

Plus, I do enjoy...


So the June patch containing a significant redesign of an existing map, instead of adding ramps and tunnels to an existing small map like the prior month, which probably took significantly more programming hours. It also updated the mobility of 97 chassis, that is hundreds of variants. Where May was only 48 variants from 8 chassis. So that was "comparatively small." Seemed to me like a lot more than either of the prior two month's patches individually. We won't even discuss that March patch. And yet we lost 6640 active players.

Im EmpyreaL, but Im not on the cauldron (nor do I want to be). My opinions are my own.

I am not changing the narrative at all, I firmly believe in the trends of bad PGI patches leading to players leaving the game, and good patches catching the interest of old players to maybe try the game again (assuming they still have friends playing that spread the word). The trends of MWO summer populations have always been a drop, so I expect that this year is no different.

I believe Khobai mentioned somewhere about how gaming populations should rise during summer months because kids aren't in school, etc, and that may be true for other games, but this game isn't exactly catered to the school aged gamer. Conversely, the adult gamers that play this game tend to go on vacation with families over the summer, and be away from their computers.

Edited by Vxheous, 01 July 2021 - 08:10 PM.

[Khobai]

Thorqemada, on 01 July 2021 - 04:20 PM, said:

And key issues still be untouched...some types of players were sacrificed to please other types players...do they make up the sacrifice churn?

I dont get the continual focus on increasing skill gap rather than decreasing it.

If you want to retain as many of the newer less experienced players as possible the skill gap should be decreased as much as possible.

It sounds like lot of new players just tried the game for one month then decided it wasnt for them.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 10:03 PM, said:

I dont get the continual focus on increasing skill gap rather than decreasing it.

If you want to retain as many of the newer less experienced players as possible the skill gap should be decreased as much as possible.

It sounds like lot of new players just tried the game for one month then decided it wasnt for them.

Looking at the Jarl's list numbers for the month of June, there were 3,155 new players, but we down 3,485 overall for the month of June, which isnt surprising as Mechwarrior 5 was released on stream, and was averaging 2674 players/day for the month of June, plus the historical drop of population once we get to summer.

As far as skill gap is concerned, there is a far greater skill gap between the bottom of tier 1 to the top of tier 1, than there is with new players and the regulars in tier 5. Literally everything can work in tier 5, which doesn't disadvantage a new player at all.

Edited by Vxheous, 01 July 2021 - 10:51 PM.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 01 July 2021 - 10:49 PM, said:

Looking at the Jarl's list numbers for the month of June, there were 3,155 new players, but we down 3,485 overall for the month of June, which isnt surprising as Mechwarrior 5 was released on stream, and was averaging 2674 players/day for the month of June, plus the historical drop of population once we get to summer.

As far as skill gap is concerned, there is a far greater skill gap between the bottom of tier 1 to the top of tier 1, than there is with new players and the regulars in tier 5. Literally everything can work in tier 5, which doesn't disadvantage a new player at all.

yeah but its not the tier 1s that are quitting

its the tier 3s, 4s, and 5s that are being forced to play tier 1s, 2s, and 3s in groups that are having a miserable time of it

anyone whos stuck with the game long enough to get to tier 1 has already passed the player retention test. thats not where the issue with losing players lies.

the skill gap within tier 1 is its own separate problem but its not the problem thats causing the game to lose players.

the highly unbalanced teams is the biggest problem the game has right now. thats whats ultimately whats going to drive players away from the game. And increasing the skill gap between tiers has made that problem worse.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 12:00 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 11:40 PM, said:

yeah but its not the tier 1s that are quitting.

And how do you know this exactly?

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 11:40 PM, said:

its the tier 3s, 4s, and 5s that are being forced to play tier 1s, 2s, and 3s in groups that are having a miserable time of it

What data do you have to show that suggests T4/5 are playing with/against T1s etc? The MM for a start, barely let's that happen.

My own testing on an Alt - in T4/5 - I never saw T1/T2 players. I played in Oceanic timezone which is well known to have the lowest population too. It was not until Tier 3 did I start seeing known T1/2 players. Even then it was only half the matches. The other half was against T4/5s again.

Additionally watching T4/T5 streamers regularly all year. None of them are seeing Higher Tier players in their matches at all and I've watched 100s of hours this year alone.

So again - where is the data to back that up exactly?

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 July 2021 - 12:11 AM.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 12:11 AM, said:

And how do you know this exactly

Because anyone who plays the hundreds of requisite games to get to tier 1 isnt suddenly going to quit.

The very fact theyve endured hundreds of games means theyre willing to overlook the games most severe issues and have already passed the player retention point where theyre likely to keep playing.

Quote

What data do you have to show that suggests T4/5 are playing with/against T1s etc? The MM for a start, barely let's that happen.

Players play against a two tier difference normally.

Sometimes if it cant find players it blows a release valve so tier 5s can get matched up against tier 2s or 1s.

But the point is even a two tier difference is too much, especially when groups are involved.

For example, A tier 5 solo player is going to have tremendous difficulty against a tier 3 group. Same goes for a tier 3 solo player against a tier 1 group. Groups are still not calculated properly by the matchmaker.

Quote

Additionally watching T4/T5 streamers regularly all year. None of them are seeing Higher Tier players in their matches at all and I've watched 100s of hours this year alone.

It mostly happens during the AM morning hours when theres not enough players on and the release valves blow to fill up games.

I imagine most streamers play during primetime hours so it makes sense youd see it less when watching streams.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 12:29 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Because anyone who plays the hundreds of requisite games to get to tier 1 isnt suddenly going to quit.

That is not data or proof.. That is completely conjecture.

Please provide the proof or once again your comment cannot be taken seriously.

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Players play against a two tier difference normally.

Sometimes if it cant find players it blows a release valve so tier 5s can get matched up against tier 1s.

But the point is even a two tier difference is too much.

How often does Tier 1 and Tier 5 meet due to gates opening?

You have still failed to provide evidence as asked and then you've proceeded to make yet another statement that is completely arbitrary.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Sometimes if it cant find players it blows a release valve so tier 5s can get matched up against tier 1s.

I have been following pretty much every discussion and official posts about matchmaking procedures and there is no evidence to that. In addition, my own experience and other's (referencing ASH here) says otherwise. As far as I can see, solo T4-5 never match with solo T1, period. Of course, there are group combinations that may enable T1 players to get matched with T5's and vice versa, but that's a problem of Soup Queue, not matchmaking valves and is an edge case at best.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 02 July 2021 - 12:27 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 02 July 2021 - 12:24 AM, said:

I have been following pretty much any discussion and official posts about matchmaking procedures and there is no evidence to that. In addition, my own experience and other's (referencing ASH here) says otherwise. As far as I can see, solo T4-5 never match with solo T1, period. Of course, there are group combinations that may enable T1 players to get matched with T5's and vice versa, but that's a problem of Soup Queue, not matchmaking valves and is an edge case at best.

Yeah that is my exact experience also.

I haven't seen T1s once, not a single time when on a T4 alt.

Not to say it doesn't happen - it might - however it would have to be so rare it's insignificant.

I guess we'll wait Khobai to provide the evidence he has and quantify for us.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

But to get on track again, we can't say why players are leaving and at what state of their personal MWO carreer. We can only assume. So please don't post as if there were public facts about it.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

Yeah that is my exact experience also.

I haven't seen T1s once, not a single time when on a T4 alt.

Not to say it doesn't happen - it might - however it would have to be so rare it's insignificant.

I guess we'll wait Khobai to provide the evidence he has and quantify for us.

PGI themselves have said it happens when the release valves blow.

But as usual you have entirely missed the point. My point was that even a two tier difference is too much when groups are involved.

You think tier 5 solo players enjoy playing against tier 3 players in groups? Or you think tier 3 solo players enjoy playing against tier 1 players in groups? absolutely not.

[Leone]

Public fact. I left ~round 2019, cuz I couldn't get reliable faction drops. Came back April 2021, got some faction matches, stuck around for the Quickplay.

I fear that's the most actual data we'll get about this.

~Leone

[-Mean Machine Angel-]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

PGI themselves have said it happens when the release valves blow.

But as usual you have entirely missed the point. My point was that even a two tier difference is too much when groups are involved.

You think tier 5 solo players enjoy playing against tier 3 players in groups? Or you think tier 3 solo players enjoy playing against tier 1 players in groups? absolutely not.

Too much crap about your stupid tiers man.Anyone can be any tier given any length of time.Is the tier 3 guy one who got there by playing 1 game a week for years,or a natrual born MWO beast power stomping their way through the ranks?
So much of your argument is just noise.Going on about guessing everyones feelings so thats the facts.All your arguments seem to be based on how you feel a thing should be and not how it is.

[Khobai]

Priests and Cannibals, on 02 July 2021 - 12:55 AM, said:

Too much crap about your stupid tiers man.Anyone can be any tier given any length of time.Is the tier 3 guy one who got there by playing 1 game a week for years,or a natrual born MWO beast power stomping their way through the ranks?
So much of your argument is just noise.Going on about guessing everyones feelings so thats the facts.All your arguments seem to be based on how you feel a thing should be and not how it is.

Its not based on how I feel. its based on the fact thousands of people quit the game last month.

having highly unbalanced teams has killed other games. theres no reason to believe MWO is special and somehow immune to the player attrition of having unbalanced teams..

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

PGI themselves have said it happens when the release valves blow.

But as usual you have entirely missed the point. My point was that even a two tier difference is too much when groups are involved.

You think tier 5 solo players enjoy playing against tier 3 players in groups? Or you think tier 3 solo players enjoy playing against tier 1 players in groups? absolutely not.

I would really appreciate if you answer the questions and provide your data as I've asked twice now rather than trying to deflect the conversation elsewhere.

The post asking for clarification is here:. https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6415040

I'd would love to continue the discussion with you however if you cant provide anything more than conjuncture we're not going to get anywhere.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 July 2021 - 01:11 AM.

[Storming Angel]

Might as well wait until past December for a better look at how much the cauldron had an impact on the game itself and how fun it is.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 01:11 AM, said:

I would really appreciate if you answer the questions and provide your data as I've asked twice now rather than trying to deflect the conversation elsewhere.

The post asking for clarification is here:. https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6415040

I'd would love to continue the discussion with you however if you cant provide anything more than conjuncture we're not going to get anywhere.

its not conjecture.

PGI said theres a release valve. If games take too long to find players it blows release valves and lets any player join the game regardless of tier.

I cant say exactly how often it happens. But I have seen it happen. I dont think it happens very often though. Again I play in the morning AM hours when player population is low so thats probably why I see it happen sometimes.

Im also not trying to deflect anything because my original post was always referring to the standard two tier deviation. Youre the one that deflected and brought up tier 5s being matched against tier 1s.

My point was always that a two tier difference is too much when groups are involved. Solo players against groups that are two tiers higher does not produced balanced or fun matches. Especially when Cauldron's patches continually increase the skill gap instead of decreasing it.

I feel like matchmaker should only allow a one tier difference. Im curious how much longer the waiting would be and how much the match balance would improve. Im also curious if they could implement a multi-stage release valve where it tries to match players with a one tier difference first then waits X minutes before allowing a two tier difference then waits X more minutes before removing all the tier restrictions.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 01:48 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

its not conjecture.
.

It unfortunately is. You said:

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

Because anyone who plays the hundreds of requisite games to get to tier 1 isnt suddenly going to quit.

I've asked you 3 times now to prove that statement which is absolutely conjecture.

You then said Low Tier players quit as they were matched with High Tier. I asked for proof to acertain how large of an issue it is. You haven't provided anything, again.

As you are clearly unwilling to provide the evidence there simply is nothing further that can be discussed with you on this topic as you're just making it up.

[Thorqemada]

Sorry, Guys, to PGI itself stated that there is a timespan in which the MM tries to get "good" matches together and after that it does simply match together what is available.

Here is the quote:
"There are times where the Match Maker runs out of players. When this happens and the queue is waiting to fill beyond release valve timers, there will be the odd circumstance where all valves are open and you will see a full open Tier/Weight Class match formed. While this is fairly rare, it is possible."

Here is the link to the post:
MWO: Forums - Combined Queues - Discoveries Week 1 (mwomercs.com)

Edited by Thorqemada, 02 July 2021 - 01:54 AM.