180 replies to this topic

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:14 AM, said:

it only has 2 less DHS than the direwolf so it doesnt really get heat capped any faster than the direwolf does

it can easily have the same cooling as the direwolf if you drop the engine size down and get rid of FF to make room for extra DHS instead. I prefer the extra speed though thats my preference. But even with the smaller engine size youre still going considerably faster than the direwolf.

deathstrike has so many more customization options because its a battlemech.

That's not how heatcap works, and your stipulation was 63kph or faster.
Two less DHS doesn't mean the cooling is the same, or similar, when the initial heat from alpha is considerably higher.

There's no discrediting the capability of the Deathstrike, but your comparisons are simply out of touch.

There's also no real reason to compare the DWF to the MK2 as they're entirely different mechs with different strengths.

Also, can you make a post without going back and editing to adjust your points? It really takes away from the conversation when a response might have to be completely changed because you decided to fluff up your post.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:14 AM, said:

The deathstrike build is x2 gauss, x2 clan heavy larges, x4 CERML, x5 tons of ammo, x17 DHS, 350 engine, and uses both endo and ferro.

More weird editing after the fact...

That build doesn't work with slot limitations unless you drop the jumpjet, which is 100% silly to do on the chassis. If that's what you're doing your arguments are even more pointless in comparing these two mechs.

Edited by McGoat, 01 July 2021 - 08:27 AM.

[Khobai]

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

That's not how heatcap works, and your stipulation was 63kph or faster.
Two less DHS doesn't mean the cooling is the same, or similar, when the initial heat from alpha is considerably higher.

There's no discrediting the capability of the Deathstrike, but your comparisons are simply out of touch.

There's also no real reason to compare the DWF to the MK2 as they're entirely different mechs with different strengths.

Also, can you make a post without going back and editing to adjust your points? It really takes away from the conversation when a response might have to be completely changed because you decided to fluff up your post.

Ok ill give you that its slightly less heat efficient. but its barely noticeable its a 2 DHS difference.

But way to ignore all the advantages. like the fact going 64kph isnt way better than going 48kph.

or the fact deathstrike has significantly better hitboxes, agility, arm articulation, and better movement characteristics in general.

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

Two less DHS doesn't mean the cooling is the same, or similar, when the initial heat from alpha is considerably higher.

no its not. its 3 heat more. that is not considerably higher. its slightly higher.

Direwolf = 2 gauss +2 LPL + 6 CERML = 53 heat

Madcat Mk2 = 2 gauss + 2 CHLL + 4 CERML = 56 heat

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

More weird editing after the fact...

That build doesn't work with slot limitations unless you drop the jumpjet, which is 100% silly to do on the chassis. If that's what you're doing your arguments are even more pointless in comparing these two mechs.

that build works completely fine without the jumpjet

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2021 - 08:37 AM.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

Ok ill give you that its slightly less heat efficient.

But way to ignore all the advantages. like the fact going 64kph isnt way better than going 48kph.

or the fact deathstrike has significantly better hitboxes, agility, arm articulation, and better movement characteristics in general.

I can assure you that I don't need to be told the advantages of either mech. I am also willing to put money on the line that you get absolutely smashed in that DS build and i'll do an easy 1k in the DWF.

Bet?

[Khobai]

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

I can assure you that I don't need to be told the advantages of either mech. I am also willing to put money on the line that you get absolutely smashed in that DS build and i'll do an easy 1k in the DWF.

Bet?

why would I make a bet against a world championship player. of course youre going to do better than me.

but the fact remains you were wrong about the initial alpha being significantly higher. 3 more heat is not significantly higher.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

no its not. its 3 heat more. that is not considerably higher. its slightly higher.

Direwolf = 2 gauss +2 LPL + 6 CERML = 53 heat

Madcat Mk2 = 2 gauss + 2 CHLL + 4 CERML = 56 heat

More editing because you can't get your info lined up.

Let's break it down Barney style where mechDB does all the math for you!!

This DWF build here: https://mech.nav-alp...9919b_DWF-PRIME

Your MK:DS build here: https://mech.nav-alp...f2c0743_MCII-DS
(which is a bad build that can be improved upon even with a bigger engine)

Which one has more DPS (efficiency) ?

[Khobai]

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

More editing because you can't get your info lined up.

Let's break it down Barney style where mechDB does all the math for you!!

This DWF build here: https://mech.nav-alp...9919b_DWF-PRIME

Your MK:DS build here: https://mech.nav-alp...f2c0743_MCII-DS
(which is a bad build that can be improved upon even with a bigger engine)

Which one has more DPS (efficiency) ?

1) I already said the deathstrike was slightly less heat efficient. after disproving your entirely false claim that it generated significantly more heat with its initial alpha. when in reality it only generates 3 more heat.

2) you are once again ignoring all of the other advantages of the deathstrike like the fact it goes 64kph, has better hitboxes, better agility, better arm articulation, and better movement characteristics

3) DPS doesnt matter. neither mech is suited for a DPS role. they are both sniping/poking mechs.

4) I am talking about the two mechs in the context of your average quickplayer match not 1v1 with a world championship player measuring their epeen against an above average player.

whether youre aware of it or not a lot of time slower mechs like daishis just get abandoned by their teams in quickplay.

5) your direwolf has no gauss ammo. wtf kindve build is that? of course you can make the direwolf look more heat efficient without ammo.

please just stop. youre trying to compare my build to a direwolf build without ammo. lmao.

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2021 - 08:55 AM.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

5) your direwolf has no gauss ammo. wtf kindve build is that?

quoting this so you can't edit it when you realize he does have gauss ammo, and with ammo nodes it'd be more than enough

[Daidachi]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

5) your direwolf has no gauss ammo. wtf kindve build is that? of course you can make the direwolf look more heat efficient without ammo.

There is 2T in the CT, 1T in the head.

I am not sure how 3T counts as 0. See spot run, run spot run?

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

5) your direwolf has no gauss ammo. wtf kindve build is that? of course you can make the direwolf look more heat efficient without ammo.

please just stop. youre trying to compare my build to a direwolf build without ammo. lmao.

Obviously yeah it does have ammo on it, but even in-game if you have a build without ammo it will still show the same heat calculation as if it had ammo.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

1) I already said the deathstrike was slightly less heat efficient. after disproving your entirely false claim that it generated significantly more heat with its initial alpha. when it reality it only generates 3 more heat.

It isn't slightly less heat efficient, when built properly it's significantly less heat efficient as shown in the builds I posted.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

2) you are once again ignoring all of the other advantages of the deathstrike like the fact it goes 64kph, has better hitboxes, better agility, better arm articulation, and better movement characteristics

I am not ignoring this at all, I am capable of recognizing the use/case for both mechs. It is a simple concept to grasp for most people that are "higher than average", as you say.

I did previously mention that the Deathstrike cannot be discredited for being strong.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

3) DPS doesnt matter. neither mech is suited for a DPS role. they are both sniping/poking mechs.

DPS in this purpose is used in an example of efficiency, whereas in public Qs where aggressive trades often win matches efficiency of the build matters.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

4) I am talking about the two mechs in the context of your average quickplayer match not 1v1 with a world championship player measuring their epeen against an above average player.

There's no measurement needed when one is just vastly superior.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

whether youre aware of it or not a lot of time slower mechs like daishis just get abandoned by their teams in quickplay.

I am quite aware, and mentioned this in my initial post with the screenshot (HPG). With that I also noted that it is often times a misfortune of map/spawn/player behavior.
Simple stuff, really.

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

5) your direwolf has no gauss ammo. wtf kindve build is that? of course you can make the direwolf look more heat efficient without ammo.

please just stop. youre trying to compare my build to a direwolf build without ammo. lmao.

3 tons of ammo is actually quite enough for anyone that can aim.

(edited for spellings, to be clear)

Edited by McGoat, 01 July 2021 - 09:05 AM.

[Khobai]

if 3 tons of ammo is sufficient then why did you only give the daishi the benefit of 3 tons of ammo and not the deathstrike?

you could fit another DHS if you dropped the deathstrike down to 3 tons of ammo

3 tons isnt enough ammo for me personally.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

if 3 tons of ammo is sufficient then why did you only give the daishi the benefit of 3 tons of ammo and not the deathstrike?

you could fit another DHS if you dropped the deathstrike down to 3 tons of ammo

3 tons isnt enough ammo for me personally.

... I used your build.

[Khobai]

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

... I used your build.

yes but you didnt compare it to my direwolf build which also uses 5 tons of ammo

again I dont run 3 tons of ammo. im not world championship player I actually miss some of the time.

but if I did run 3 tons of ammo the deathstrike build could be further optimized.

youre being incredibly disingenuous with your comparisons.

youre also deliberately ignoring the advantage of going 64kph vs only 48kph and focusing purely on the areas where the direwolf has an advantage. thats not an objective comparison. its purely onesided.

the deathstrike is still IMO a better mech for your average quickplay solo player like me who doesnt play in groups. I want a faster mech not a slowass matchscore pinata like the direwolf.

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2021 - 09:15 AM.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

yes but you didnt compare it to my direwolf build with also uses 5 tons of ammo

You're right, I used my build which is simply a better build.

[pattonesque]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

youre being incredibly disingenuous with your comparisons.

you should acknowledge being wrong about saying it had no gauss ammo imo

[w0qj]

Your suggested DWF-Prime works like a charm... just gave it a spin for the 1st time, you have to know heat management very well to avoid thermal shutdown, and just wish it has AMS protection... first 2 games was on hot maps, but got average 2 kills and 500 damage each game... then 3rd game had thermal shutdown in front of enemy and died soon after...

Agree with you, the moral of the story is superior piloting (which I don't have), and superior thermal management, superior aiming so you don't waste your shots and avoid excessive heat... know where the battle will be, and be there yesterday (and not tomorrow)... therefore 48 kph does not matter to elite Assault pilots...

I'm actually running a Mauler MAL-2P very similar to your Dire Wolf DWF-Prime(I) build, MAL-2P going at 49kph also using 2x UAC10 but with 6x MPL... just wish my MAL-2P has CBills bonus to it!
(Before your suggestion, I was using faster/heavier engine but 3x MPL).

This is why I play MWO; the exchange of ideas for a better mech!

Thanks again!

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 04:42 AM, said:

Fine, here's one that isn't from 2019 and isn't in an AC2 boat farming.
This was last night, literally playing as big 100t mek shoving myself into enemy positions. Also note that there's two DWF doing a fair bit more than the rest of the team

48kph is fine. You 100% should have to grasp positioning and awareness to be rewarded with using the loadout these mechs carry. For example, this was 2 UAC10 | 2 cLPL | 6 cERML.. For a 105 double tap there had better be some balance required in getting it to the fight.
(Build here for you to try yourself: https://mech.nav-alp...88de0_DWF-PRIME)

The next match IIRC was HPG and we spawned in B spawn T1, which is in the bottom of a crater annnnd it went as expected with ~500dmg coming out of each of us.
That does **not** mean the dire needs to be faster, it was/is sometimes an unfortunate by product of the map/spawns and often times player behavior.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

but if I did run 3 tons of ammo the deathstrike build could be further optimized.

youre being incredibly disingenuous with your comparisons.

If you dropped 2t of ammo from your DS build you'd get 2t free and only 2 slots, not much can really be done with that.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

yes but you didnt compare it to my direwolf build which also uses 5 tons of ammo

again I dont run 3 tons of ammo. im not world championship player I actually miss some of the time.

but if I did run 3 tons of ammo the deathstrike build could be further optimized.

youre being incredibly disingenuous with your comparisons.

Stop changing your post. THAT is disingenuous.

Your MK build, which this is all about, isn't going to be suddenly great with +1 DHS because of slot limitations and your "63kph or faster".
Period.

[Khobai]

McGoat, on 01 July 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

Stop changing your post. THAT is disingenuous.

Your MK build, which this is all about, isn't going to be suddenly great with +1 DHS because of slot limitations and your "63kph or faster".
Period.

well its not just +1 DHS. the engine size can be increased too.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

well its not just +1 DHS. the engine size can be increased too.

Your MK build, which this is all about, isn't going to be suddenly great with +1 DHS because of slot limitations and your "63kph or faster".
Period.