180 replies to this topic

[Aivazovsky]

don't forget about convergence

[Khobai]

Arnetheus, on 02 July 2021 - 02:44 AM, said:

Wrong, since PPFLD has travel time, like everyting else.
Increases to accel/deccel and turn rates might make all the difference you need in somebody hitting or missing your open components. The greater the range you're being shot at, the more you will notice that.

gauss travels at like 2500m/s

at an 800m range you have like a third of a second to torso twist

mechs do not physically torso twist fast enough.

you might be able to torso twist off slower PPCs fired from beyond optimal range but certainly not gauss fired at optimal range. and faster PPCs with velocity buffs and a targeting computer can travel at nearly the same speed as gauss.

hell it takes a third of a second just for the average human brain to respond to anything. before you even realize the PPFLD has been fired your mech is already hit.

So the only way torso twisting off PPFLD works is if you anticipate being hit ahead of time and start torso twisting before the PPFLD alpha is fired. But if the player firing the PPFLD sees you torso twist and still takes the shot into your arm or whatever instead of holding the shot thats their mistake.

I am highly skeptical of anyone claiming they can torso twist PPFLD with any degree of consistency though. Certainly your average player isnt capable of it.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 04:17 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

You guys mean to tell me PPFLD has travel time and it can be twisted?

What absolute sorcery!

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 04:03 AM, said:

You guys mean to tell me PPFLD has travel time and it can be twisted?

What absolute sorcery!

how? mechs dont torso twist fast enough.

literally the only way you can torso twist off PPFLD is if you torso twist before the person fires, in which case they dont have to fire anymore, they can just wait for you to twist back before firing.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:10 AM, said:

literally the only way you can torso twist off PPFLD is if you torso twist before the person fires, in which case they dont have to fire anymore, they can just wait for you to twist back before firing.

You use the example of gauss and yes, that has very high velocity along with IS ERPPCs. The rest of the PPFLD weapons do not and there are more than two of them.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:10 AM, said:

how? mechs dont torso twist fast enough.

literally the only way you can torso twist off PPFLD is if you torso twist before the person fires, in which case they dont have to fire anymore, they can just wait for you to twist back before firing.

PPFLD is not instant damage.. I play in lobbies with the best players in the game and somehow we all don't get murdered CT from all the PPFLD around.
Interesting.

[Redacted]

Just. Stop.

Edited by Armchair General, 02 July 2021 - 07:09 AM.

[Khobai]

Monke-, on 02 July 2021 - 04:16 AM, said:

You use the example of gauss and yes, that has very high velocity along with IS ERPPCs. The rest of the PPFLD weapons do not and there are more than two of them.

like what? AC20? AC20 is the slowest velocity PPFLD in the game.

AC20 has ~1000m/s velocity

at 270m you still only have like a third of a second to torso twist

McGoat, on 02 July 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

PPFLD is not instant damage.. I play in lobbies with the best players in the game and somehow we all don't get murdered CT from all the PPFLD around.
Interesting.

[Redacted]

Just. Stop.

i didnt say it was instant.

the travel time can be calculated mathematically

gauss @ 2500m/s. 810m optimum range = 810/2500 = .324 seconds

mechs do not torso twist in .324 seconds

so youre not torso twisting off gauss PPFLD unless you can preanticipate every single gauss shot being fired and torso twist ahead of the shot and the enemy player sees you twist before they fire and still decides to take the shot instead of holding it.

thats beyond the skill of your average player. most players dont even torso twist at all.

stop acting like every single player is some hyperreflex torsotwisting fiend. the mobility buffs really only increased survivability for a small handful of players at the top.

Edited by Armchair General, 02 July 2021 - 07:10 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

like what? AC20? AC20 is the slowest velocity PPFLD in the game.

AC20 has ~1000m/s velocity

at 270m you still only have like a third of a second to torso twist

Thats enough time to start twisting damage off. Lets take the Grasshopper, a torso turn rate of 108°/s so around 32° in a third of a second, you could get even more of a twist if you turn your mech as well and in a third of a second turn 50°.

This is presuming you start twisting when the enemy fires and you don't pre-empt them or try bait out shots.

Edited by Monke-, 02 July 2021 - 04:28 AM.

[McGoat]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

Snip

Dude. Stop changing your post over and over again.
It is intentionally misleading others, or in other words baiting community members into non-constructive discussions.
This is against the TOS and will be reported.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 03:57 AM, said:

gauss travels at like 2500m/s

at an 800m range you have like a third of a second to torso twist

mechs do not physically torso twist fast enough

Did you just pick the weapon with the highest velocity on purpose after your argument was just sunk, again?

Gauss actually has 2000.
AC10s have 1300 for example.

Thus while PPFLD is pinpoint it can end up anywhere on the 8 frontal areas and 3 rearward areas depending on mech orientation.

More agile mechs will let them spread damage better even against PPFLD and that is a simple fact.

[Khobai]

Monke-, on 02 July 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

Thats enough time to start twisting damage off. Lets take the Grasshopper, a torso turn rate of 108°/s so around 32° in a third of a second, you could get even more of a twist if you turn your mech as well and in a third of a second turn 50°.

This is presuming you start twisting when the enemy fires and you don't pre-empt them or try bait out shots.

possibly. it depends heavily on other factors like hitbox size and mech geometry.

the lighter and smaller mechs certainly have a better chance of it than the heavier ones.

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 04:30 AM, said:

Did you just pick the weapon with the highest velocity on purpose after your argument was just sunk, again?

No i used the AC20 in one of my examples. The weapon with the slowest velocity.

[Armchair General]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:10 AM, said:

how? mechs dont torso twist fast enough.

literally the only way you can torso twist off PPFLD is if you torso twist before the person fires, in which case they dont have to fire anymore, they can just wait for you to twist back before firing.

Khobai, please stop this. PPFLD like Gauss et.al. CAN be twisted. I've done it myself often enough.

Everything with 90°/sec twist speed or faster can do it I would say which is practially every heavy or lighter mech including even some assaults. While Gauss has high base velocity of 2200m/s (https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html) it still needs to be charged and you can anticipate that when you see your target and know its loadout (that's why intel on enemy mechs and SA is so important). At the same time granted especially good players with Gauss might not shoot if they see their target twisting but then in the end you achieved what you wanted and didnt get hit on your CT.

Otherwise high caliber IS ballistics have much lower velocity and thus can also be twisted especially when you know the timing of the last shot.

Edited by Armchair General, 02 July 2021 - 04:37 AM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 11:48 PM, said:

I couldve sworn you told me in another thread that mechs werent dying in 2-3 alphas

now they are? either TTK is too low or it isnt

I don't believe I ever said that, but I know who did.

Khobai, on 18 May 2021 - 12:09 AM, said:

44 damage is still too much IMO. that amount of damage in one location absolutely savages light and medium mechs. Also with the splash damage added in the overall damage is actually higher than before. So while it is a nerf, its not nearly as big of a nerf as it shouldve been, and it still completely wrecks lighter mechs.

It definitely wouldve been better to link AC20 and PPCs to a max of 3. So you could fire at most an AC20 and two PPCs (or three SNPPCs) without ghost heat.

As a general rule, pinpoint alphastrikes should be limited to 40 PPFLD. Because more than 40 PPFLD starts to get broken unless the weapons have severe downsides like dual heavy gauss. While the 50 PPFLD of dual heavy gauss can arguably be called broken the reality is the severe downsides of using dual heavy gauss largely mitigate it from being broken in actuality. Although I would still argue that wasnt the best way to balance dual heavy gauss because it feels miserable and unfun to use.

That said, I think there was a good case for removing ghost heat on dual AC20s. But allowing dual AC20 in combination with PPCs wouldve been completely broken. Which is why a ghost heat linkage on AC20s and PPCs wouldve made sense. As long as AC20 and PPC remain unlinked were unlikely to see ghost heat removed on dual AC20 which makes me sad.

Edited by pbiggz, 02 July 2021 - 04:35 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

possibly. it depends heavily on other factors like hitbox size and mech geometry.

the lighter and smaller mechs certainly have a better chance of it than the heavier ones.

What an impressive counter point, the complete lack of one. Yes hitboxes and geometry have an impact on a mech's ability to twist well but we're not talking about that, we're talking about how you claim that PPFLD completely invalidates twisting at all.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 July 2021 - 04:30 AM, said:

Did you just pick the weapon with the highest velocity on purpose after your argument was just sunk, again?

Gauss actually has 2000.
AC10s have 1300 for example.

1) you are not factoring in velocity quirks or velocity skill tree buffs.
2) AC10
1300m/s @ 450m optimum range

450/1300 = ,34 seconds

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:37 AM, said:

,34 seconds

If you scroll up you can see where you claimed .3s is too short of a time to twist and I pointed out that it isn't. So 0.34, being more time, is still enough time to twist.

Edited by Monke-, 02 July 2021 - 04:39 AM.

[pbiggz]

You can't argue assault brawlers are bad just because you refuse to learn how to play them better.

[Khobai]

Monke-, on 02 July 2021 - 04:34 AM, said:

What an impressive counter point, the complete lack of one. Yes hitboxes and geometry have an impact on a mech's ability to twist well but we're not talking about that, we're talking about how you claim that PPFLD completely invalidates twisting at all.

im not claiming it invalidates torso twist.

im claiming the skill required to torso twist off most PPFLD alphas is far beyond that of your average player.

im not saying it cant be done by players possession superhuman reflexes and intuition. just that more often than not it doesnt happen.

Monke-, on 02 July 2021 - 04:38 AM, said:

If you scroll up you can see where you claimed .3s is too short of a time to twist and I pointed out that it isn't. So 0.34, being more time, is still enough time to twist.

you did not prove that the shot would miss the CT though.

a partial torso twist doesnt mean it still wont hit your CT.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2021 - 04:46 AM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 04:39 AM, said:

even your ac10


im not claiming it invalidates torso twist.

im claiming the skill required to torso twist off most PPFLD alphas is far beyond that of your average player.

im not saying it cant be done by players possession superhuman reflexes and intuition. just that more often than not it doesnt happen.



you did not prove that the shot would miss the CT though.

This is a frequent strawman of yours.

This mythical "average player" who can't seem to do the basic things required to play a given strategy you like is always the basis for your argument that said strategy ought to be buffed to the point of thoughtless ultrapower.

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 02 July 2021 - 04:43 AM, said:

This is a frequent strawman of yours.

This mythical "average player" who can't seem to do the basic things required to play a given strategy you like is always the basis for your argument that said strategy ought to be buffed to the point of thoughtless ultrapower.

its not mythical at all. I can go into a game right now and start shooting people. most of them wont torso twist.

you severely overestimate how skilled the average player is.