92 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

Zordicron, on 27 July 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

My original comment was everyone saying AC20 is great are putting it in as part of a weapons package, and that on it's own it is pretty lame. PGI doesn't want players to boat them as evidenced by ghost heat. The status of the weapon has changed dramatically over the years.
Not that it is alone there, but I can't think of another one that has seen such a dramatic fall from grace from where it's status was to where it is now.

honestly I'd support AC/20 HSL being raised to three rather than two

[Castigatus]

Zordicron, on 27 July 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

My original comment was everyone saying AC20 is great are putting it in as part of a weapons package, and that on it's own it is pretty lame. PGI doesn't want players to boat them as evidenced by ghost heat. The status of the weapon has changed dramatically over the years.
Not that it is alone there, but I can't think of another one that has seen such a dramatic fall from grace from where it's status was to where it is now.

Mechs carry multiple weapons, that's just how combat works in this game. Even the Yen Lo Wang and the AC-focused Hunchbacks, the mechs you keep pointing at saying they prove your point, have other weapons fitted alongside the autocannon. People consider them as part of a loadout because that's the best way to determine the actual effect it has on the game. AC20 + Snub PPCs was the go-to brawling damage loadout for almost half a year, and big autocannons with appropriate support weapons are still considered very strong on a whole range of mechs even now.

You cannot judge the merits of a weapon in isolation from how it commonly gets used if you want to make a serious judgment, especially one like the AC20 where you almost never see it being run on its own outside of comedy builds that are almost exclusively considered memes for completely unserious play.

Now with regards to the specific chassis you mentioned, the Yen Lo Wangs issues are less about the relative merits of an AC20 and more about the fact its hardpoint locations mean it usually carries its entire primary armament in one obvious easily targeted location that's hard to protect unless you are very good at twisting off damage and shielding that location from incoming fire, a flaw that most of the Centurion varients have. The AC hunchbacks also have similar issues with their giant shoulder humps but again, it's an issue with mech design and hardpoint locations, not the AC20 as a weapon system.

[pattonesque]

And the Hunchbacks at least can side/hill peek very well because their AC/20 is in a great mount (in a big hitbox). HBKs are totally viable now, but Centurions are definitely not.

[Zordicron]

Castigatus, on 28 July 2021 - 03:40 AM, said:

Mechs carry multiple weapons, that's just how combat works in this game. Even the Yen Lo Wang and the AC-focused Hunchbacks, the mechs you keep pointing at saying they prove your point, have other weapons fitted alongside the autocannon. People consider them as part of a loadout because that's the best way to determine the actual effect it has on the game. AC20 + Snub PPCs was the go-to brawling damage loadout for almost half a year, and big autocannons with appropriate support weapons are still considered very strong on a whole range of mechs even now.

You cannot judge the merits of a weapon in isolation from how it commonly gets used if you want to make a serious judgment, especially one like the AC20 where you almost never see it being run on its own outside of comedy builds that are almost exclusively considered memes for completely unserious play.

Now with regards to the specific chassis you mentioned, the Yen Lo Wangs issues are less about the relative merits of an AC20 and more about the fact its hardpoint locations mean it usually carries its entire primary armament in one obvious easily targeted location that's hard to protect unless you are very good at twisting off damage and shielding that location from incoming fire, a flaw that most of the Centurion varients have. The AC hunchbacks also have similar issues with their giant shoulder humps but again, it's an issue with mech design and hardpoint locations, not the AC20 as a weapon system.

Again...

They used to be feared on the field. They used to be considered high tier chassis. You can still twist damage in a Cent, that hasn't changed. What changed is people aren't shooting your left arm with a 30 point alpha. They are shooting it with enough to evaporate it in one shot and then some, probably well into the ST. Those chassis relied on a single AC20, anything else was backup weapons or opportunity is there type of weapons.

This is the whole point. The AC20 went from being feared in and of itself to being part of a group of a weapon system, which is what I said in my original comment. This dynamic has left a lot of chassis in the dust, some with no options to regain any type of relevance.

The core of it is, back then you could assasin strike an AC20 slug into someone, and worst that would happen is they would retaliate with(most likely) a barely more powerful weapon strike that most likely was also going to spread across your mech as you twisted as you retreated to cover. best case, you plugged someone. Worst case, you probably still won the trade easily because of a single PLONK into where you aimed vs some spread out dmg in return.
Now: you PLONK someone, and the return fire is double or triple or more to what you just did. In my original comment I used my gargoyle build as an example. Should you trade with these two mechs face to face? No, but this is the reality: you have to expose from cover FOUR TIMES with a YLW to do the same dmg as ONCE in my Gargles. And that is one example out of many loadouts that can simply win the numbers game in the reality of how gameplay developes in a match. On paper DPS is useless if it ignores other factors like exposure time. People make entire threads about how decimal points of a second of laser duration make or break a laser. Here we are talking about a mech having to poke it's nose out twice, three times, four times to do similar damage output.

That is why these mechs are basically extinct in the game, and why I made the comment about the AC20 as I did. it has a place as a component of a weapons loadout. It didn;t used to be that way, it didn't need a bunch of helpers to be a devastating force. This concept is what people are trying to argue with me about for some reason. The game has changed, mechs that used to be top tier are MIA now, thats how it is, the AC20 can not stand on it's own anymore, BUT IT USED TO BE ABLE TO. If anything can be argued, it is if the game is better this way or not. I think not, but years of power creep from the dev team disagree with me, and they hold the keys.

[pattonesque]

OK, again: stop comparing an AC/20 in and of itself to an entire complement of weapons systems

[Castigatus]

What Patton said.

It's also kind of funny that you seem to think a Centurion should do a similar level of damage to a mech that outweighs it by thirty tons and that can mount 4 times as many weapons purely because it has an AC20 or that you think the YLW or any of the AC hunchbacks were considered high tier mechs at any point in their history (pro tip, they weren't, ever). You go on and on about 'oh it used to feel like this' but that's your feeling, not anybody else's, and it's certainly not something that lets you accurately judge how good a weapon system is.

You either have a serious case of rosetinted glass nostalgia for something that never actually existed or you're just flat out wrong, pick one.

[PocketYoda]

pattonesque, on 28 July 2021 - 03:44 PM, said:

OK, again: stop comparing an AC/20 in and of itself to an entire complement of weapons systems

Castigatus, on 28 July 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

What Patton said.

It's also kind of funny that you seem to think a Centurion should do a similar level of damage to a mech that outweighs it by thirty tons and that can mount 4 times as many weapons purely because it has an AC20 or that you think the YLW or any of the AC hunchbacks were considered high tier mechs at any point in their history (pro tip, they weren't, ever). You go on and on about 'oh it used to feel like this' but that's your feeling, not anybody else's, and it's certainly not something that lets you accurately judge how good a weapon system is.

You either have a serious case of rosetinted glass nostalgia for something that never actually existed or you're just flat out wrong, pick one.

They are pretty garbage and they will stay garbage because of people like this.. Both are probably light mech pilots..

Whats funny is a light can do 3 times the amount of damage compared to a centurion.

Edited by MechaGnome, 28 July 2021 - 10:33 PM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

MechaGnome, on 28 July 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

Whats funny is a light can do 3 times the amount of damage compared to a centurion.

Yeah some lights could, but going just off raw damage isn't a good metric.

[Castigatus]

MechaGnome, on 28 July 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

They are pretty garbage and they will stay garbage because of people like this.. Both are probably light mech pilots..

Whats funny is a light can do 3 times the amount of damage compared to a centurion.

You know you could just check my jarls stats and you would know exactly how stupid you look right now.

Actually, I'll do it for you - https://leaderboard....ch?u=Castigatus

So, how does not having a percentage of lights piloted go over 20% per month for all but one month out of the almost three years I've been actively playing the game translate into 'I'm a light pilot' in your brain huh?

Not to mention you're making the mistake of taking on paper damage numbers as gospel instead of also considering how the mechs that mount those weapons get played.

Edited by Castigatus, 29 July 2021 - 02:33 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Zordicron, on 28 July 2021 - 02:43 PM, said:

Now: you PLONK someone, and the return fire is double or triple or more to what you just did. In my original comment I used my gargoyle build as an example. Should you trade with these two mechs face to face? No, but this is the reality: you have to expose from cover FOUR TIMES with a YLW to do the same dmg as ONCE in my Gargles. And that is one example out of many loadouts that can simply win the numbers game in the reality of how gameplay developes in a match. On paper DPS is useless if it ignores other factors like exposure time. People make entire threads about how decimal points of a second of laser duration make or break a laser. Here we are talking about a mech having to poke it's nose out twice, three times, four times to do similar damage output.

There's one, maybe two centurion variants/loadouts worth taking. But before I continue, I'm not sure why you're attempting to compare the two; sure, their geo is similar as well as their stature and hardpoint placement, but that's as far as it goes for similarities.

The Centurions desperately need quirks, but the AC/20 isn't to blame; the chassis are. Take a look at the centurion; it's armor and structure is literally wet paper, combined with the fact it doesn't get jump jets, and you basically have a flat footed mech that it's only way of mitigating damage is either it's speed or torso twisting, neither of which don't work well or for long due to the lack of overall health the chassis has.

If anything, just give the Centurion better quirks, and, amazingly, it just might work ALOT better! Who would've thought that quirks could change the dynamic of the weapons it uses rather than changing the weapon itself that affects every dynamic of the weapons all mechs use? w o a h (yes, I'm hinting at the fact that a chassis requirking is better than legit changing every single damned weapon all because one is supposedly underperforming on certain mechs).

[MechNexus]

MechaGnome, on 28 July 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

They are pretty garbage and they will stay garbage because of people like this.. Both are probably light mech pilots..

Whats funny is a light can do 3 times the amount of damage compared to a centurion.

Can you provide some examples of light builds that can do three times the damage of a centurion? Ideally IS mechs, to ensure an apples to apples comparison. The closest I can think of is the WLF-2 with 6MPL, but that only beats out the AC20+Snub YLW, not the AC20+2MPL setup, or the AC20+3SRM4 setup on the -AH. And compared to the AC20+Snub YLW? 6MPL isn't PPFLD. Pinpoint, sure, but you've got a burn time to contend with - the snub YLW can fire and twist off sooner than the wolfhound can. (Also? Still not 3x the damage.)

Edited by MechNexus, 29 July 2021 - 04:24 AM.

[MyriadDigits]

MechNexus, on 29 July 2021 - 04:14 AM, said:

Can you provide some examples of light builds that can do three times the damage of a centurion? Ideally IS mechs, to ensure an apples to apples comparison. The closest I can think of is the WLF-2 with 6MPL, but that only beats out the AC20+Snub YLW, not the AC20+2MPL setup, or the AC20+3SRM4 setup on the -AH. And compared to the AC20+Snub YLW? 6MPL isn't PPFLD. Pinpoint, sure, but you've got a burn time to contend with - the snub YLW can fire and twist off sooner than the wolfhound can. (Also? Still not 3x the damage.)

Guarantee he was thinking of some heavy laser clan light that alpha's to 99% heat. I'd bet my good socks on it.

[pattonesque]

I think we can all agree: the dang Centurion needs a lot of quirk love

WoL use to recommend the SRM/ML zombie Centurion as a newbie mech back in the day because it'd teach new folks the importance of twisting, but it can't even do that well anymore

like imagine that robot going against a brawler Vapor Eagle, my god

Edited by pattonesque, 29 July 2021 - 06:09 AM.

[Dogstar]

MechNexus, on 29 July 2021 - 04:14 AM, said:

Can you provide some examples of light builds that can do three times the damage of a centurion?

While there is a fair amount of hyperbole to the original statements I can attest that I've done better in some light mechs than I've done in the YLW. I keep a record of my highest damage scores in each mech and the Grinner with MPL and ECM is around 700 whereas the Wang is only about 400. Certainly not 3 times, or even twice for that matter but the Grinner is faster, isn't limited by ammo,m and is more agile for dodging incoming fire.

I still like the YLW but Centurions could definitely do with some improvement, and as Scout Derek pointed out it's not the AC20 that's at fault.

[The Basilisk]

pattonesque, on 27 July 2021 - 06:23 PM, said:

that's kind of an issue with the YLW though, and Centurions in general. I'd hope they'd get a lot of love on the upcoming quirk passes

But exactly that kind of mindset is the problem here.
A Mech wielding an AC20 should not need Quirks.
The kind how fusion weapons (weaponsystems that consist of multiple instances of the same smal weapons like MGs, multi AC2, Multi Lasers and so on and so on) are hillariously wrong implemented in MWO created this problem and are one of the main reasons Quirks and armorinflation are necessary at all.
Its this mindset of having to walk every way consequently to the end even if you know it does not make any sense at all that takes a lot of fun and immersion out of MWO.

[pattonesque]

The Basilisk, on 29 July 2021 - 07:30 AM, said:

But exactly that kind of mindset is the problem here.
A Mech wielding an AC20 should not need Quirks.
The kind how fusion weapons (weaponsystems that consist of multiple instances of the same smal weapons like MGs, multi AC2, Multi Lasers and so on and so on) are hillariously wrong implemented in MWO created this problem and are one of the main reasons Quirks and armorinflation are necessary at all.
Its this mindset of having to walk every way consequently to the end even if you know it does not make any sense at all that takes a lot of fun and immersion out of MWO.

well I mean look, the thing about mechs in this game compared to mechs in TT is that the actual physical design of the mech is a balancing factor in MWO and mostly just what looks cool in TT. Mechs like the Centurion (and this is a particularly interesting example because the TT Centurion is way thinner than the MWO Centurion) will struggle due to their wideness and need quirks to survive.

I'm a little confused by your post, so I'll just say that you shouldn't compare a single AC/20 to the entirety of another mech's armament. You can, for instance, do quite a bit of work with a HBK-4G and its single AC/20 plus three medium lasers. Sure, something like a Gargoyle can carry much more firepower, but that is a mech 30 tons heavier with worse mounts.

[MechNexus]

Then perhaps the dialogue should shift away from an underperforming chassis with an AC20 to a high-tier chassis with an AC20.

Thus: Hunchbacks, Champions, Roughnecks, Warhammers, Orions, Marauders, Victors, Highlanders, Banshees, and the Atlas. All good AC20-toting mechs.

[Dogstar]

MechNexus, on 29 July 2021 - 10:03 AM, said:

Then perhaps the dialogue should shift away from an underperforming chassis with an AC20 to a high-tier chassis with an AC20.

Thus: Hunchbacks, Champions, Roughnecks, Warhammers, Orions, Marauders, Victors, Highlanders, Banshees, and the Atlas. All good AC20-toting mechs.

Most of those mechs are good because they also field a number of other weapons. The Atlas, for instance, can easily pack 30+ mrm tubes, and some medium lasers, and has approx three times the armour of a centurion while only being a bit bigger and slower. For the Atlas it doesn't really matter whether you pack an AC20, LBX20, UAC20, gauss rifle, or hgauss, it's at most half your firepower.

The trouble with the YLW, as the perfect example of the Centurion with an AC20, is that it can only field a couple of lasers or a snub ppc in addition and doesn't have the armour to match it's extra wide body, or the agility to seriously avoid harm, and the one cool feature, a shield arm, gets burned off pretty damn quickly because the quirks for it are meh. Even switching to a UAC20 build doesn't improve it a lot.

At the moment the mechs that can wield a bunch of weapons that synergise together to provide maximum damage output are the ones that are most successful. The ones that have limited hardpoints or hardpoints that don't synergise are not doing as well.

Currently, relying on a single heavy weapon doesn't work well, as is ably demonstrated by mechs like the YLW, Grid Iron, ASN-DD, Ghillie, etc. Even if 'the lore' and out gut feelings tell us that they should be fearsome.

I think we need to decide whether or not mechs that wield single heavy weapons should be worthwhile. If they are, then mechs like the ones above need some quirks to make them better, and those should be offensive quirks like serious cooldown buffs, or even flat out damage buffs (assuming those are possible), as well as some good defensive buffs.

If not then we need to find another way to make those sub-par mechs viable, and the only thing I can think of is to add hardpoints - which is unlikely to happen.

[LordNothing]

i think a big problem with the ac20 in particular is that a lot of them are balanced as a ppfld weapon. i think autocannons in general would feel better if they were true burst fire weapons with damage buffs (in the form of dps or increased damage) among others. ultras in particular should be higher damage but longer burst. this would instantly solve the uac10 dominance issue and allow pre-kodiak thermal performance to return. autocannons simply are not supposed to be ppfld weapons.

[pattonesque]

LordNothing, on 30 July 2021 - 04:58 PM, said:

i think a big problem with the ac20 in particular is that a lot of them are balanced as a ppfld weapon. i think autocannons in general would feel better if they were true burst fire weapons with damage buffs (in the form of dps or increased damage) among others. ultras in particular should be higher damage but longer burst. this would instantly solve the uac10 dominance issue and allow pre-kodiak thermal performance to return. autocannons simply are not supposed to be ppfld weapons.

if you made the AC/20 burst fire it would be worse than it is now