161 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 05:49 AM, said:

I've had the opposite observation: I used to be able to make trash builds work. Trash builds don't work, anymore, which means that "viability" has been reduced, overall. There may be a wider range of standout builds at the top, but the bottom has been significantly reduced.

Well you can't expect mechlab fails to get you good results. The point is, you can make GOOD builds with a higher variety of weapon systems than you could before. I never said anything about trash builds. Trash builds are called trash builds for a reason.

[Rodrigo Gonzalez]

Alstren, on 27 July 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

My spider can fly into orbit now


That said while messing around with my new LAM Spider I found a minor problem with Crimson Straight. Being that if you jump to 600m's altitude near the tunnel/mountain the game considers you going out of bounds for flying too high.


Good patch btw.

It's probably not a bug but a feature from days where JJs made Spiders and Vipers really go into orbit. What happened was that there was constantly that very last mech which hid on top of that mointain at the end of a skirmish game (unreachable for most, and you could not lock on for LRMs except with UAVs), so it was made "out of bounds" on purpose.

You can actually see a tiny red circle in the mini-map around that area, another one is on the island marking out of bounds areas right in the middle of the map.

Any chance you were jumping around these "holes" in the map which were put there intentionally?

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Well you can't expect mechlab fails to get you good results. The point is, you can make GOOD builds with a higher variety of weapon systems than you could before. I never said anything about trash builds. Trash builds are called trash builds for a reason.

So in my particular case, I'm building all the different stock builds that I can fit in-game and seeing how they do. In the specific case of the Orion-M variants (MA, MB, MC, MD) their performance noticeably decreased from pre-patch. In large part, this is due to the overall higher damage output significantly minimizing or eliminating any tankiness they used to exhibit.

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

I'm building all the different stock builds that I can fit in-game and seeing how they do.

Why are stock builds the baseline though? Why should they be? Mechlab is a huge part of MechWarrior and always has been.

Describe the noticeable decrease? Do you have stats to support this or does it just feel that way?

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 01:46 PM, said:

Why are stock builds the baseline though? Why should they be? Mechlab is a huge part of MechWarrior and always has been.

Describe the noticeable decrease? Do you have stats to support this or does it just feel that way?

We have common sense to support this.. when you keep buffing the majority of weapon systems, combined with decreasing their heat, higher alphas will inevitably be the result because players always push the limits. Not my idea of fun or a good direction for this game to be taking. Each patch takes us closer to Call of Mechwarrior..

[Gas Guzzler]

In terms of ON1-M:

ON1-M

ON1-M

ON1-M


I kinda want to try all of these.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 01:55 PM, said:

We have common sense to support this.. when you keep buffing the majority of weapon systems, combined with decreasing their heat, higher alphas will inevitably be the result because players always push the limits. Not my idea of fun or a good direction for this game to be taking. Each patch takes us closer to Call of Mechwarrior..

What you're describing is called "Confirmation Bias". You ignore evidence contrary to your theory, but bask in evidence that supports your theory. You think shifting to a more diverse meta will lower TTK and drive players away, when reality shows that a more diverse meta means less mindless deathball NASCAR and more interesting gameplay, retaining more players that like PvP games.

The game has become much more fun for me because there is less NASCAR, less mindless zerg rushing and Call of Duty-like playing. More strategies are viable and less zerg rush means longer time to play the game and not just hold W. And no, I don't just use "meta".

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 July 2021 - 02:06 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 02:03 PM, said:

What you're describing is called "Confirmation Bias". You ignore evidence contrary to your theory, but bask in evidence that supports your theory. You think shifting to a more diverse meta will lower TTK and drive players away, when reality shows that a more diverse meta means less mindless deathball NASCAR and more interesting gameplay, retaining more players that like PvP games.

The game has become much more fun for me because there is less NASCAR, less mindless zerg rushing and Call of Duty-like playing. More strategies are viable and less zerg rush means longer time to play the game and not just hold W. And no, I don't just use "meta".

They could have still increased variety without creating ginormous pinpoint alphas... but that would have taken some thought and planning.. maybe adding some splash damage here and there and God forbid a couple nerfs. No, their method.. their execution was akin to a kid in a candy store that wants everything and they want it now, now now. This has been my analogy to this progression from the very first patch that saw weapon buffs to most weapons and that for many, no one ever asked for.

I came up with 'soup' for the name of the current qp queue.. now i'm gonna change it to 'comp' queue..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 27 July 2021 - 02:30 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

They could have still increased variety without creating ginormous pinpoint alphas... but that would have taken some thought and planning.. maybe adding some splash damage here and there and God forbid a couple nerfs. No, their method.. their execution was akin to a kid in a candy store that wants everything and they want it now, now now. This has been my analogy to this progression from the very first patch that saw weapon buffs to most weapons and that for many, no one ever asked for.

Ginormous pinpoint alphas were already there and will always be there. They were just less effective than massed Ultra auto-cannons. Now both are an option. How is this a problem? TTK hasn't actually changed much as far as I can tell, and matches feel like the "interesting" portion of it lasts a lot longer because its not just mindless deathballing which is where we got from all the nerfs.

And as if their balance pass didn't take thought and planning.... Those guys have been testing and analyzing for years...

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 02:31 PM, said:

Ginormous pinpoint alphas were already there and will always be there. They were just less effective than massed Ultra auto-cannons. Now both are an option. How is this a problem? TTK hasn't actually changed much as far as I can tell, and matches feel like the "interesting" portion of it lasts a lot longer because its not just mindless deathballing which is where we got from all the nerfs.

And as if their balance pass didn't take thought and planning.... Those guys have been testing and analyzing for years...

Really? We had 5 clan large pulse alpha's that are now buffed for even more damage and heat (just to give you one example..). All the previous high alpha builds are now being added onto because many weapons had their heat decreased, ghost heat removed/reduced, etc.

The way matches have changed is that a single sniping night-gyr or a single uber-equipped dire two can DRASTICALLY affect a match.. not to mention a good timber or veagle pilot.. there is simply too much power being yielded by individual mechs.

From what I see most of their thought and planning the compers did was relative to their faction warfare and comp experience, NOT qp. You rarely saw them in QP before all they unleashed all these ridiculous buffs upon us.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 27 July 2021 - 02:39 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

Really? We had 5 clan large pulse alpha's that are now buffed for even more damage and heat (just to give you one example..).

Clans Large Pulse Lasers were objectively inferior to other options (cER PPC, AC2, UAC5/UAC10 spam) before the Cauldron balance passes. More damage and less heat made them have a reason to exist. And yes, assault mechs can take ~5-6 cLPL, just like they can take 5-6 AC5s or 2 UAC5s and 2 UAC10s. It may interest you to know that even now, those cLPL builds aren't optimal builds and better options exist.

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

The way matches have changed is that a single sniping night-gyr or a single uber-equipped dire two can DRASTICALLY affect a match.. not to mention a good timber or veagle pilot.. there is simply too much power being yielded by individual mechs.

Good, deathball requirement no longer present.

Still, sniping Night-Gyrs or Dires aren't that hard to out maneuver? This game has plenty of cover, let them stand there and focus on the their teammates that are closer, then deal with them.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 02:42 PM, said:

Clans Large Pulse Lasers were objectively inferior to other options (cER PPC, AC2, UAC5/UAC10 spam) before the Cauldron balance passes. More damage and less heat made them have a reason to exist. And yes, assault mechs can take ~5-6 cLPL, just like they can take 5-6 AC5s or 2 UAC5s and 2 UAC10s. It may interest you to know that even now, those cLPL builds aren't optimal builds and better options exist.

Are you serious? CLPL's were amazing even before the unnecessary buffs. I did very well with them before the buffs.. their registration was amaze-balls compared to erl's. They also had great range. You can't compere dakka to energy.. totally different weapon systems that require different face times, different aim skill, etc. The real problem was cerppc's were completely op.. those were the outlier.. now everything else has been brought up to cerppc level and even though this brought some diversity, now we have everyone running around in these insane builds. The responsible solutions would have been to nerf cerppc (oh the horror).

I know those builds aren't optimal dude.. my whole point is that you can still alpha them and insta-core people.. this should not be allowed. They made it so that you don't have to have 'optimal' builds.. all you have to do is have an insane alpha that won't overheat you.. and maybe a smattering of good positioning skills to find that 'power position or stay with the team.'

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 27 July 2021 - 02:53 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

You can't compere dakka to energy.. totally different weapon systems that require different face times, different aim skill, etc.

You most certainly can because they compete in the same range bracket. One kills things faster than the other.

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

I know those builds aren't optimal dude.. my whole point is that you can still alpha them and insta-core people.. this should not be allowed. They made it so that you don't have to have 'optimal' builds.. all you have to do is have an insane alpha that won't overheat you.. and maybe a smattering of good positioning skills to find that 'power position or stay with the team.'

I don't think you can alpha 6, maybe you can alpha 5 but then you can't follow up very well. I wouldn't hesitate to trade with a 6 cLPL assault with a cER PPC/cAC5 assault, for example, and I wouldn't be worried about getting "insta-cored". If you don't get tunnel vision, you don't get insta-cored.

[VixNix]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Well you can't expect mechlab fails to get you good results. The point is, you can make GOOD builds with a higher variety of weapon systems than you could before. I never said anything about trash builds. Trash builds are called trash builds for a reason.

"trash builds" is a bs term, which indicates a major imbalance in the game while taking the fun out of experimentation

[justcallme A S H]

Experimentation and trash builds are not the same thing at all.

You wanna run a LRM5, AC20, ERPPC XL Atlas, it's a trash build and is going to get trashed on.
You run a LRM40, UAC20 and SNPPC XL ATlas, it's passable as experimental.

There is absolutely a difference and it is nothing to do with game imbalance. You can never balance for someone making a deliberate choice to hinder themselves.

[Leone]

Nonsense. I've done plenty of experimentation that ended with my discovering new and exciting trash builds. Most recently with attempts to find viable streak options. With patches, game balance changes, and experimentation is required to find the most effective tactics available.

Sometimes those experiments are failures.

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 27 July 2021 - 06:13 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 01:46 PM, said:

Why are stock builds the baseline though? Why should they be? Mechlab is a huge part of MechWarrior and always has been.

Describe the noticeable decrease? Do you have stats to support this or does it just feel that way?

The noticeable decrease is the shots required to kill. The 'mechs in question used to be able to take a hit. All of the "ON1-M Variants" are XL builds. At this point, the loadout stops mattering as much because the 'mech will die after two or three hits to the side torso, instead of four or five. No, I don't front-load my armor outside of Solaris, and I rarely spec into the armor tree. I shouldn't have to. Those should be options, not mandates.

Oh, and as for why stock builds are the baseline? Because that's how the 'mech comes. Stock. That's literally the definition of "baseline": that's what you start with. Anybody who's new to the game who doesn't know the feel of the 'mechs yet will, and should, run the stock loadout once. Get a feel for the 'mech and how it plays, before spending money on upgrades or alterations that may not fit with how they want to use the 'mech.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 27 July 2021 - 06:55 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

In terms of ON1-M:

ON1-M

ON1-M

ON1-M


I kinda want to try all of these.

So here's one that looks good on paper, but is severely hampered by the Orion's inability to brawl:

https://mech.nav-alp...#8455726d_ON1-M

It was already "meh" before the patch, and has only gone downhill since.

That's the ON1-MC. The remaining variations on the ON1-M (MA, MB, MD) contain one LRM system and generally have to rely on it to do any cumulative damage before death. The direct-fire weapons are useful once, maybe twice, before one side or the other no longer exists, and XL death occurs.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 27 July 2021 - 07:39 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 02:58 PM, said:

You most certainly can because they compete in the same range bracket. One kills things faster than the other. I don't think you can alpha 6, maybe you can alpha 5 but then you can't follow up very well. I wouldn't hesitate to trade with a 6 cLPL assault with a cER PPC/cAC5 assault, for example, and I wouldn't be worried about getting "insta-cored". If you don't get tunnel vision, you don't get insta-cored.

Decided to give it a try on a 'mech with a Ghost Heat quirk. Executioner doesn't have the tonnage and Dire Wolf doesn't have the extra energy hardpoints without breaking set-of-8 and losing the quirk, but the Rifleman was able to make it work.

Without skills (I don't own it) and on a hot map (Tourmaline), I timed the shutdown at about 10 seconds. I suspect a full heat-based skill-tree would enable that 'mech to alpha and only hit high-90's for heat. A 3x3 left/right combo would avoid ghost heat altogether with mostly the same damage effect, given the short burn time of pulse lasers. Two shots to the Atlas on the map (a -D variant with all of that chassis' bonus armor quirks) had the CT armor gone and the internals a very deep orange color.

https://mech.nav-alp...dfd8560_RFL-IIC

DWF-Prime ( https://mech.nav-alp...3f8dc_DWF-PRIME ) restarted after 5 seconds, lending even more credence to the possibility of making the build work with proper application of skill points. The DWF is more cumbersome, admittedly, and will have a slightly harder time than the Rifleman at being pinpoint accurate with repeated shots.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 27 July 2021 - 07:28 PM.

[John Bronco]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 July 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

Are you serious? CLPL's were amazing even before the unnecessary buffs.

No they weren't, but please continue making statements proving your weak grasp of game balance.