161 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Dumbing down?

I can now choose between 2 / 3 / 4 cLPL and cERML mix depending on the range, heat and DPS I am after.

That is actually adding 2-3 more builds. The opposite of dumbing down if you are adding options. It makes things more complex in the choice you made which I'm guessing you just don't understand.

[Kroete]

justcallme A S H, on 01 August 2021 - 07:44 PM, said:

That is actually adding 2-3 more builds. The opposite of dumbing down if you are adding options. It makes things more complex in the choice you made which I'm guessing you just don't understand.

The difference is the number of A and B´s you take,
a real difference would be A + B or C or D or maybe a combination with more then 2 of them.

Finding a solution with more then two variables is also more complex then just adding as much B as you can, after you added as much A as you can (the later reminds of the matchmaker, we have in the moment). If we take working with different ranges and cooldowns into it, against working with nearly the same range and cooldown, its not more complex, with only a+b, its dumbed down.

It also seems we have different understanding of difference,
in your "difference" all mechs have blue and greenlasers and nearly the same cooldown and range,
in my difference, you need more then one or two buttons to smash and you would see more then two colors of beams and not only beams.

But iam no compplayer, i just play big stompy robots,
which should not go down after one or two hits and dance like a ballarina on meth,
they are 100 tons of metal and not a grunt from a generic shooter doing peekaboo.

Edited by Kroete, 03 August 2021 - 04:46 AM.

[Shadowhack]

Kroete, on 03 August 2021 - 04:22 AM, said:

in your "difference" all mechs have blue and greenlasers and nearly the same cooldown and range,

you forgot the yellow lasers :'(

do agree that the constant weapon buffing is a little iffy. like, i know light mechs are basically glass, but I feel like I'm back attempting to pilot a Spider as a newb when I take my lights out now But *shrug*

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 01 August 2021 - 07:44 PM, said:

Dumbing down?

I can now choose between 2 / 3 / 4 cLPL and cERML mix depending on the range, heat and DPS I am after.

That is actually adding 2-3 more builds. The opposite of dumbing down if you are adding options. It makes things more complex in the choice you made which I'm guessing you just don't understand.

You don't get it and you never will.. your mind is stuck in comp mode (which is what qp is becoming). You guys won't be happy until you can equip enough weapons so that the whole right side of the in-match screen is covered in your weapon loadout; until you can equip high enough pinpoint alpha dmg that you can one shot any mech into oblivion; and where you can never have enough RANGE for the ultimate pug shielding experience. I'm still waiting for special mech quirks to be created where you can stand beyond the boundaries of the map and snipe from there.

I'm guessing ''you won't understand'' this but you could have added all this new found variety WITHOUT all those buffs and creating a plague of high alpha pinpoint damage builds.. but you guys took the kid in the candy store route, 'gimme gimme gimme, less heat and less duration, moar moar moar, greater range and greater damage'.. instead of putting some actual thought into what you are doing and considering the long term ramifications..

In case you forget these patches were intended to bring NEW blood to the game.. instead of catering to the established vets. What kind of player retention are we gonna see when you can be taken down so fast.. who's gonna stick around for that? And before you take credit for the slight player base increase, much of it has to do with the free monthly mechs, regular rollout of events (which I've been calling for for years), new mechs and map.

But ya, ''i'm guessing you won't understand any of this."

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 August 2021 - 03:47 PM.

[John Bronco]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 August 2021 - 08:53 AM, said:

In case you forget these patches were intended to bring NEW blood to the game.. instead of catering to the established vets.

Funny I thought these patches were supposed to be for everyone
https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html

Edited by John Bronco, 03 August 2021 - 09:48 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kroete, on 03 August 2021 - 04:22 AM, said:

The difference is the number of A and B´s you take,
a real difference would be A + B or C or D or maybe a combination with more then 2 of them.

That already exists? Have you heard of pure dakka, dakka/PPC, gauss+laser vomit, Light Gauss plus ER PPC, MRMs, Quad LB10, SNPPC/AC20, AC20+SRMs, SRMs+SPL, HML Boats, uPL Boats, ER LL Boating, ERLL-Gauss, I mean the list goes on.

First the complaint is "cLPL Boating only", then "cLPL + ER ML" combinations are a problem, then HLL and ER ML combinations are a problem even though we are already straying from the chief complaint of "cLPL Crutch Boating Only". That's not even mentioning the other options I mentioned above that stray from lasers entirely. Basically boils down to no real argument aside from complaining just to complain.

Ya'll focusing on laser vomit (or cLPL in particular) can't see the forest for the trees.

[VixNix]

John Bronco, on 03 August 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

Funny I thought these patches were supposed to be for everyone
https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html

Made it a LOT less fun to play...

[Gas Guzzler]

VixNix, on 03 August 2021 - 11:41 AM, said:

Made it a LOT less fun to play...

I've been having a great time. It's nice to be able to use a variety of weapons and not feel hampered.

[pattonesque]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 August 2021 - 11:43 AM, said:

I've been having a great time. It's nice to be able to use a variety of weapons and not feel hampered.

yeah like I'm not getting the objection. People died from huge alphas beforehand all the time, now you just have more than four weapons which are viable

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 August 2021 - 10:23 AM, said:

That already exists? Have you heard of pure dakka, dakka/PPC, gauss+laser vomit, Light Gauss plus ER PPC, MRMs, Quad LB10, SNPPC/AC20, AC20+SRMs, SRMs+SPL, HML Boats, uPL Boats, ER LL Boating, ERLL-Gauss, I mean the list goes on.

First the complaint is "cLPL Boating only", then "cLPL + ER ML" combinations are a problem, then HLL and ER ML combinations are a problem even though we are already straying from the chief complaint of "cLPL Crutch Boating Only". That's not even mentioning the other options I mentioned above that stray from lasers entirely. Basically boils down to no real argument aside from complaining just to complain.

Ya'll focusing on laser vomit (or cLPL in particular) can't see the forest for the trees.

This game has become a lot more stressful to play.. and has vastly reduced the number of viable mechs you can feasibly play (if you want to help your team win that is). I DESPISE meta.. I enjoyed rocking everyone's world in my quirky mechs running 'off-the-beaten-path builds.. now unless the mech has broken hitboxes or runs range builds.. you are too easily cored.

They could have still achieved the variety of builds we are seeing now, WITHOUT having to buff them into the stratosphere. One CLPL boat can dominate a match.. this is wrong.

We understand your opinion.. i hope you understand ours.

pattonesque, on 03 August 2021 - 02:00 PM, said:

yeah like I'm not getting the objection. People died from huge alphas beforehand all the time, now you just have more than four weapons which are viable

The problem is with every weapon buff.. it's reducing the number of viable mechs you can take into a match. This goes against what they say they are trying to accomplish..

Mech resize can't come soon enough.. I doubt it will happen tho

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 August 2021 - 03:45 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Kroete, on 03 August 2021 - 04:22 AM, said:

The difference is the number of A and B´s you take,
a real difference would be A + B or C or D or maybe a combination with more then 2 of them.

Well you can.

You can also pair, viably now, cERL, cHLL and cMPL for instance.

So you have A, B, C, D & E in terms of weapon choices and in varying configuration all of which are perfectly viable now.

For instance you can pair 3-4 cERL and mix with cERML for a bit more range play early as one such additional option to build diversity that was not viable prior also.

You can even mix cLPL with cMPL to solid effect now too.


Again I can only tell you guys what is there. It is up to the players to realise there are more options on the table, not less. Anyone who says there is less simply doesn't understand and that is all there is to it.

DAEDALOS513, on 03 August 2021 - 08:53 AM, said:

You don't get it and you never will.. your mind is stuck in comp mode (which is what qp is becoming). You guys won't be happy until you can equip enough weapons so that the whole right side of the in-match screen is covered in your weapon loadout; until you can equip high enough pinpoint alpha dmg that you can one shot any mech into oblivion; and where you can never have enough RANGE for the ultimate pug shielding experience. I'm still waiting for special mech quirks to be created where you can stand beyond the boundaries of the map and snipe from there.

Sure and that is why we are looking to nerf cLPL shortly and also discussing other things to nerf like heat dissipation (back to previous levels prior to PGI buffs) which will slow lasers down

But please keep telling us we don't understand and with your conspiracy theories of special quirks that simply aren't goig to happen. FWIW - We plan to reduce range quirks for that reason overall - hence buffing the base weapons values so ALL mechs can be more viable.

Again this is big picture stuff you have shown time and time again to be unable to grasp or see despite it being explained a dozen various ways to you by 4-5 people.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 August 2021 - 11:43 AM, said:

I've been having a great time. It's nice to be able to use a variety of weapons and not feel hampered.

Same!

I mean it is a bit WTF to be slammed at 1200m by LGauss/ERPPC on the IS side without realising it's incoming.

That however just means I need to be more aware of what is going on around me and I realise I'd become lazy over 2-3 years of long range weapons hitting like wet noodles.

Of course the passes and quirks et al. are still not fully complete and won't be for a few months so I am definitely not about to jump up and down as change and the required time to settle with said changes will take a few months plus ongoing adjustments as things play out.

End of the day population is higher than '20/'19 at this time of year. So seems many others are enjoying the game as you & I are compared to the past few years.

[C337Skymaster]

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

Well you can.

You can also pair, viably now, cERL, cHLL and cMPL for instance.

So you have A, B, C, D & E in terms of weapon choices and in varying configuration all of which are perfectly viable now.

For instance you can pair 3-4 cERL and mix with cERML for a bit more range play early as one such additional option to build diversity that was not viable prior also.

You can even mix cLPL with cMPL to solid effect now too.


Again I can only tell you guys what is there. It is up to the players to realise there are more options on the table, not less. Anyone who says there is less simply doesn't understand and that is all there is to it.

All of your suggestions are still restricted to two weapon types, paired. Everything you just said is "you can pair any of these combinations". Why just pairs? Why not three, or four, or five different weapon types? Why not 2ML, LBX/10, SRM4, LRM20, NARC? If you've got the buttons for it (which I suspect most FPS gamers have better mice than the Microsoft Office mouse that they got for free 10 years ago), why not use all the weapons? Why only two at a time?

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

Sure and that is why we are looking to nerf cLPL shortly and also discussing other things to nerf like heat dissipation (back to previous levels prior to PGI buffs) which will slow lasers down

So LPL nerfs are welcome and necessary, HOWEVER: the real issue isn't so much the specific weapon as it is the convergence mechanic, and the ability to dump large volumes of damage on a single component. Reduce the level of pinpoint accuracy, and you'll increase survivability for all involved. Daedaloss' complaint is that, with the ability to generate a pinpoint alpha of 20-30 pts more than pre-patch, 'mechs with unique geometry (Mad Cat with missile ears, Highlander with torso weapons, IS Orions with the pointy shoulder, etc) cannot be played, because those unique geometries attract those giant alphas and are removed with surgical precision after just one or two hits.

Of much more importance, though, and this needs to be brought back to the cauldron: Dissipation reduction is the wrong attack vector. Any changes to that heat mechanic need to go FURTHER in the direction we were headed, not backwards from it. Very high dissipation with very low heat capacity should be the end goal. It doesn't matter how low you make dissipation if capacity remains the same or increases. It simply prevents you from brawling, but it does nothing to reduce the size of those pinpoint alpha strikes. If heat capacity comes down, the total size of alpha strikes is forcibly reduced, but increased dissipation improves the ability to chain fire the same damage output. Forcing smaller alphas that fire more frequently is an alternative to eliminating pinpoint convergence which can have much the same effect. For super-cold weapons, like AC/2's, AC/5's, or Gauss Rifles, the cooldown of those specific weapons would have to be extended to balance with hotter weapons that are restricted by the heat cap reduction.

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

But please keep telling us we don't understand and with your conspiracy theories of special quirks that simply aren't goig to happen. FWIW - We plan to reduce range quirks for that reason overall - hence buffing the base weapons values so ALL mechs can be more viable.

Again this is big picture stuff you have shown time and time again to be unable to grasp or see despite it being explained a dozen various ways to you by 4-5 people.

Reducing and eliminating common quirks will be a blessing, though certain unique quirks that are in keeping with a particular 'mech's main function should be retained (Uller being The Norse god of Archery, the Kit Fox should retain its range quirks, since ranged combat is specifically what it's known for, etc).

As for the "big picture", what YOU keep failing to understand, is that the "big picture" doesn't matter to most users. Their own personal experience is what makes or breaks their interest in a particular game, and if the individual user experience is degrading, then even if the overall "big picture" is getting more balanced, the changes are a net negative.

[justcallme A S H]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

All of your suggestions are still restricted to two weapon types, paired.

Why just pairs? Why not three, or four, or five different weapon types?

You can run as many as you want. I don't even know why you would be asking the question.

AC5/cAC10 or cUAC5/cUAC10 with cLPL/cERML or HML/ERML combos. Gauss cLPL/cERML combos. etc etc etc.

The unfounded statements that some people go on about with single weapon boating is all that exists is truly laughable as much as it is untrue.

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

So LPL nerfs are welcome and necessary, HOWEVER: the real issue isn't so much the specific weapon as it is the convergence mechanic,

Cone-of-fire and convergence, again? Won't ever be changing.

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

Daedaloss' complaint is that, with the ability to generate a pinpoint alpha of 20-30 pts more than pre-patch,

There has been no major increase to PPFLD build damage at all. This false claim has been completely debunked numerous times now.

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

It doesn't matter how low you make dissipation if capacity remains the same or increases.

It absolutely matters. If you lower the dissipation (back to where it was circa 2017) then larger alphas are less viable because DPS is significantly chomped down.

You are completely vulnerable to being pushed if it takes you 10seconds extra to cooldown so simple logic suggests you bring more heat efficient builds (ie, lower alpha/damage).

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

doesn't matter to most users. Their own personal experience is what makes or breaks their interest in a particular game

Overall posts and feedback across all the mediums monitored is well over 90% positive. That really says it all.

If you are not in the 90% that would mean it is actually you who is not seeing it.

[pattonesque]

weapon combos which are viable now, off the top of my head:

LPL/ML
LL/ML
SPL/SL/uPL
SL/Light PPCs of all things
Lgauss/ERPPC
Gauss/LPL/ML
Gauss/LL/ERLL
AC20/SRMs
AC20/ML
AC20/MPL
AC20/SNPPC
LB10/SNPPC
HPPC/ML
AC10/SRMs
LB20/SRMs
LB10/SRMs
LB20/MLs
LB10/MLs
LB20/SL
LB20/SPL
UAC/10/5
MRMs/ML
UAC20/MRMs
RAC2/AC2
RAC2/ML
HGauss/ML
HGauss/MPL

I'm sure I'm missing some, and some of these certainly work better than others. But there's definitely variety. Damn sight better than the CERPPC/ISMPL/UAC10/UAC5/LRM days of a few months ago

Edited by pattonesque, 04 August 2021 - 06:39 AM.

[Curccu]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

All of your suggestions are still restricted to two weapon types, paired. Everything you just said is "you can pair any of these combinations". Why just pairs? Why not three, or four, or five different weapon types? Why not 2ML, LBX/10, SRM4, LRM20, NARC? If you've got the buttons for it (which I suspect most FPS gamers have better mice than the Microsoft Office mouse that they got for free 10 years ago), why not use all the weapons? Why only two at a time?

Well because bracket builds suck, those weapons might be good as weapons but they are too different together (leads --> damage spread, burn times/ppfld, locks, hitscan, range, cooldown, projectile speed). Because of those reasons that build cannot alpha strike against moving opponent or some of the weapons will miss.
that kind of hypermixed build requires insane amount of skill to play well and with that same skill player with simpler build does always better.

As for buttons don't know if it's just me but my aim gets worse and worse bigger my mouse button number is .
With mouse 1-2 easy to hit which ever component I'm going after, can keep burn there... mouse 3 is somewhat doable but not as accurate and requires a lot of concentration to hit decently. 4+ is just sawed-off shotgun, I don't usually use those.

Edited by Curccu, 04 August 2021 - 06:41 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

pattonesque, on 04 August 2021 - 06:36 AM, said:

weapon combos which are viable now, off the top of my head:

LPL/ML
LL/ML
SPL/SL/uPL
SL/Light PPCs of all things
Lgauss/ERPPC
Gauss/LPL/ML
Gauss/LL/ERLL
AC20/SRMs
AC20/ML
AC20/MPL
AC20/SNPPC
LB10/SNPPC
HPPC/ML
AC10/SRMs
LB20/SRMs
LB10/SRMs
LB20/MLs
LB10/MLs
LB20/SL
LB20/SPL
UAC/10/5
MRMs/ML
UAC20/MRMs
RAC2/AC2
RAC2/ML
HGauss/ML
HGauss/MPL

I'm sure I'm missing some, and some of these certainly work better than others. But there's definitely variety. Damn sight better than the CERPPC/ISMPL/UAC10/UAC5/LRM days of a few months ago

Wha? Most of those combo's worked just fine before.. now they are more crutchy.. it's disgusting

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 04 August 2021 - 09:40 AM.

[pattonesque]

and as a result you can use way more mechs. the Firestarter is back in the lineup, Atlases can actually brawl again, Black Lanners have become legitimately very strong with short-range weapon buffs, light mechs with LPPCs are viable, etc.

More weapons are strong, and sometimes this leads to a quick death, but not so much so that match times have been significantly affected. Mobility has also been increased, quirks will likely lead to way more survivability (my understanding is that the Centurion is slated to be incredibly tanky, for instance) and if rescale happens, it will as well.

[DAEDALOS513]

pattonesque, on 04 August 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

and as a result you can use way more mechs. the Firestarter is back in the lineup, Atlases can actually brawl again, Black Lanners have become legitimately very strong with short-range weapon buffs, light mechs with LPPCs are viable, etc.

More weapons are strong, and sometimes this leads to a quick death, but not so much so that match times have been significantly affected. Mobility has also been increased, quirks will likely lead to way more survivability (my understanding is that the Centurion is slated to be incredibly tanky, for instance) and if rescale happens, it will as well.

What helped most of those mechs (and i say helped because i did great with them before the buffs) were the agility and armour quirks not the weapon buffs..

I'm not saying all buffs weren't needed.. ie. the short range weapons.. but i'd estimate 80% of them were NOT necessary.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 04 August 2021 - 07:25 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

Sure and that is why we are looking to nerf cLPL shortly and also discussing other things to nerf like heat dissipation (back to previous levels prior to PGI buffs) which will slow lasers down

But please keep telling us we don't understand and with your conspiracy theories of special quirks that simply aren't goig to happen. FWIW - We plan to reduce range quirks for that reason overall - hence buffing the base weapons values so ALL mechs can be more viable.

Again this is big picture stuff you have shown time and time again to be unable to grasp or see despite it being explained a dozen various ways to you by 4-5 people.

Ofcourse i can grasp the big picture.. i've been calling for these nerfs and telling you guys what these buffs would do to the game. I am the very definition of 'big picture viewer'. To be fair you guys also told us that NERFS in general are bad (because you're so scarred over pgi's past nerfs) and so we never expected nerfs to ever be implemented.

But anyway, that's great news, thank you! Laser nerfs can't come soon enough..

BTW it's not 4or5 guys that agree with me.. almost every time i bring it up people agree with my view.. no one wants to bother posting their views in the forums.. i'm one of the few suckers i guess..

I used the oob quirk example to illustrate my point that all these buffs were showing a trend that we are going overboard with them.. but seeing nerfs coming down the pipeline gives me some hope.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 04 August 2021 - 09:40 AM.