161 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

justcallme A S H, on 04 August 2021 - 06:06 AM, said:

It absolutely matters. If you lower the dissipation (back to where it was circa 2017) then larger alphas are less viable because DPS is significantly chomped down.

You are completely vulnerable to being pushed if it takes you 10seconds extra to cooldown so simple logic suggests you bring more heat efficient builds (ie, lower alpha/damage).

Vulnerability to pushing is this big "balancing weakness" that comp players cite as all the reason in the world that a build is sufficiently weak. The problem comes from when players are actually grouped up as a team (you know, like the game is supposed to be played) and while that one player is cooling down, he's got two or three teammates covering the approach avenues to his position. Sure, player A is vulnerable to being pushed because he's busy cooling down, but as long as players B and C have him covered, player A on the opposing team hasn't a prayer for actually pushing on him before he's ready to fire again.

I say this from experience: every time I see a build that's super powerful but vulnerable to pushing, and I push it, the entire rest of that player's team makes swiss cheese look like a more solid wall than my 'mech. Whereas if I don't push that 'mech, it goes about one-shotting side-torsos on my team and using cover to deal with its excessively long cooldown period.

I also say this from the perspective of having used the new trial Hellbringer for whatever event it was that we had to use the trial 'mechs right after they were changed: without skills, that has a very high heat alpha, and a very long cooldown, but it's still a viable build to someone who can poke out, alpha strike, then hide until the weapons are ready to fire again. Once I figured out that playstyle, my damage numbers went up extremely high, in spite of the "10 second" cooldown period.

Who knows? Maybe Comp Players are too used to carrying their entire team, so they need to be able to fire everything at a moment's notice at all times, but for anyone relying on their teammates to watch their back, cooldown time is not the big weakness that you guys seem to think it is.

[DAEDALOS513]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

Vulnerability to pushing is this big "balancing weakness" that comp players cite as all the reason in the world that a build is sufficiently weak. The problem comes from when players are actually grouped up as a team (you know, like the game is supposed to be played) and while that one player is cooling down, he's got two or three teammates covering the approach avenues to his position. Sure, player A is vulnerable to being pushed because he's busy cooling down, but as long as players B and C have him covered, player A on the opposing team hasn't a prayer for actually pushing on him before he's ready to fire again.

I say this from experience: every time I see a build that's super powerful but vulnerable to pushing, and I push it, the entire rest of that player's team makes swiss cheese look like a more solid wall than my 'mech. Whereas if I don't push that 'mech, it goes about one-shotting side-torsos on my team and using cover to deal with its excessively long cooldown period.

I also say this from the perspective of having used the new trial Hellbringer for whatever event it was that we had to use the trial 'mechs right after they were changed: without skills, that has a very high heat alpha, and a very long cooldown, but it's still a viable build to someone who can poke out, alpha strike, then hide until the weapons are ready to fire again. Once I figured out that playstyle, my damage numbers went up extremely high, in spite of the "10 second" cooldown period.

Who knows? Maybe Comp Players are too used to carrying their entire team, so they need to be able to fire everything at a moment's notice at all times, but for anyone relying on their teammates to watch their back, cooldown time is not the big weakness that you guys seem to think it is.

VERY good points.. you don't need cooldown when you can aim and are able to unload such high alpha's.. or core someone at 800m.. most of the time after one hit the enemy is humbled and runs away or stays low...

Cooldown is more for brawlers.. but good look getting in range now without receiving major damage first.

[justcallme A S H]

DAEDALOS513, on 04 August 2021 - 07:23 AM, said:

What helped most of those mechs (and i say helped because i did great with them before the buffs) were the agility and armour quirks not the weapon

But months ago you were saying TTK was a huge issue, mobilty buffs would not help etc etc.

And here we are now where you're saying it did help them...


You can't even maintain moderately consistent arguments.

[justcallme A S H]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

I say this from experience: every time I see a build that's super powerful but vulnerable to pushing, and I push it, the entire rest of that player's team makes swiss cheese look like a more solid wall than my 'mech. Whereas if I don't push that 'mech, it goes about one-shotting side-torsos on my team and using cover to deal with its excessively long cooldown period.

From what I've seen many times in game from you that statement is highly inaccurate.

You charge/YOLO in at the fundamentally worst times possible. So if course you get absolutely obliterated.

Your issue there is your gameplay, nothing more.

[The6thMessenger]

InnerSphereNews, on 20 July 2021 - 08:18 AM, said:

IS Light PPC:

Damage increased to 5.5 (from 5)

While the light PPC changes made in April made them viable complimentary weapons for various ballistic focused configurations, The weapon on its own is observed to be lacking in damage output compared to other alternatives. In this patch, an increase in raw damage is introduced to further improve upon the effectiveness of LPPC focused mechs.

Been saying this for a long time. Not close to my specified suggestion, but the damage buff is what I was always pointing out.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 August 2021 - 04:42 AM.

[Kroete]

justcallme A S H, on 03 August 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

Again this is big picture stuff you have shown time and time again to be unable to grasp or see despite it being explained a dozen various ways to you by 4-5 people.

And you still need only one or two buttons, still have only two weapons used.
Still using as much A as possible and fill it with as much B as possible.

I dont see a big picture, i only see some sketches and lots of hopes and maybes from people that want to finish the picture, but cant because part of it is not in their responsibility (to be exact, all of it is not in their responsibility, they are dependet on the good will of pgi).
Where is the official statement of pgi that the mech-resize will come for all mechs that need it?

Until we have read that, your big picture is nothing more then a dream.

And is there a plan B if the rescale will not happen?

Edited by Kroete, 05 August 2021 - 02:07 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 04 August 2021 - 02:22 PM, said:

But months ago you were saying TTK was a huge issue, mobilty buffs would not help etc etc.

And here we are now where you're saying it did help them...


You can't even maintain moderately consistent arguments.

It helped.. didn't solve the problem though.. start nerfing please.

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

I say this from experience: every time I see a build that's super powerful but vulnerable to pushing, and I push it, the entire rest of that player's team makes swiss cheese look like a more solid wall than my 'mech. Whereas if I don't push that 'mech, it goes about one-shotting side-torsos on my team and using cover to deal with its excessively long cooldown period.

Pushing a mech by yourself without awareness for where the rest of the enemy team is at sounds like a pretty big error, no matter what mech it is.

You could say the same thing about a LRM boat sitting somewhere looking "vulnerable" to a push. If you push him and he his friends have LOS with his position, then yeah you are going to get shot at by everyone since you're "that guy" running towards somebody outside of cover. No amount of weapon nerfs will help. You need to find routes that maintain cover.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 August 2021 - 02:29 PM, said:

Pushing a mech by yourself without awareness for where the rest of the enemy team is at sounds like a pretty big error, no matter what mech it is.

You could say the same thing about a LRM boat sitting somewhere looking "vulnerable" to a push. If you push him and he his friends have LOS with his position, then yeah you are going to get shot at by everyone since you're "that guy" running towards somebody outside of cover. No amount of weapon nerfs will help. You need to find routes that maintain cover.

About half the time I execute something like this, I'm already within 200m of the target, but the two teams are on opposite sides of a narrow ridge (think Classic Polar), and the "vulnerable" 'mech is well sighted and protected in the middle of their team. Either way, my point stands: if a "pushable" 'mech is well positioned with protection from their team, they are no longer "pushable", regardless of how long it takes for them, specifically, to cool down.

Meanwhile their high pinpoint alpha is still just as dangerous and deadly downrange, even if they can't fire it as often because heat dissipation has been reduced. The only way to force a reduction of that alpha strike is to reduce heat capacity to the point where it forces an overheat shutdown, even with heat skills applied.

[Horseman]

C337Skymaster, on 04 August 2021 - 04:47 AM, said:

All of your suggestions are still restricted to two weapon types, paired. Everything you just said is "you can pair any of these combinations". Why just pairs? Why not three, or four, or five different weapon types? Why not 2ML, LBX/10, SRM4, LRM20, NARC? If you've got the buttons for it (which I suspect most FPS gamers have better mice than the Microsoft Office mouse that they got for free 10 years ago), why not use all the weapons? Why only two at a time?

Because this isn't tabletop and silliness like that just gets you clubbed to death in a dark corner of the map by a mech half your size.

[pattonesque]

C337Skymaster, on 06 August 2021 - 02:51 AM, said:

About half the time I execute something like this, I'm already within 200m of the target, but the two teams are on opposite sides of a narrow ridge (think Classic Polar), and the "vulnerable" 'mech is well sighted and protected in the middle of their team. Either way, my point stands: if a "pushable" 'mech is well positioned with protection from their team, they are no longer "pushable", regardless of how long it takes for them, specifically, to cool down.

Meanwhile their high pinpoint alpha is still just as dangerous and deadly downrange, even if they can't fire it as often because heat dissipation has been reduced. The only way to force a reduction of that alpha strike is to reduce heat capacity to the point where it forces an overheat shutdown, even with heat skills applied.

they are pushable, they're just not pushable by you alone. bring a group or (and I know this is a pain, trust me) wrangle the pubbies and you'll get way better results

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 06 August 2021 - 02:51 AM, said:

About half the time I execute something like this, I'm already within 200m of the target

Then why push them? Shoot them then get back to cover until you have the full momentum of your team.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 August 2021 - 07:47 AM, said:

Then why push them? Shoot them then get back to cover until you have the full momentum of your team.

Because while I'm cowering behind my cover, they're cooling off behind their cover, and high-alpha builds like that will out-trade all day long with enough opportunity to cool off between shots. My point stands: limiting the dissipation won't change the alpha size. Only restricting the heat cap will do that. Something closer to MW3 style heat scaling would be our best bet: 6 large lasers fired together in MW3 is instant nuclear explosion. No shutdown, no internal damage. One second you're there, the next second you're not, and in the after-action screen, every component of your entire 'mech is down to 0 health. If you chain fire them, though, they'll chain all day long because the dissipation is so fast.

[C337Skymaster]

Horseman, on 06 August 2021 - 02:53 AM, said:

Because this isn't tabletop and silliness like that just gets you clubbed to death in a dark corner of the map by a mech half your size.

See, the notion that that's "silliness" is part of what's wrong with this game. Boats are boring, and being punished or ostracized for not running boats is why I stopped playing between events.

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 06 August 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

Because while I'm cowering behind my cover, they're cooling off behind their cover, and high-alpha builds like that will out-trade all day long with enough opportunity to cool off between shots. My point stands: limiting the dissipation won't change the alpha size. Only restricting the heat cap will do that. Something closer to MW3 style heat scaling would be our best bet: 6 large lasers fired together in MW3 is instant nuclear explosion. No shutdown, no internal damage. One second you're there, the next second you're not, and in the after-action screen, every component of your entire 'mech is down to 0 health. If you chain fire them, though, they'll chain all day long because the dissipation is so fast.

Eh actually beg to differ, pretty sure they lowered the heat cap and buffed dissipation and lasers still did okay. You're also dissipating heat over the 1 second burn time so that helps. And even now, may Clan laser boat assaults can afford to stack SHS to maximize their heat capacity, but DHS dissipation is still better in most cases.

Yes, while you don't push them they are farming your teammates who are foolish enough to let themselves be farmed, but that's their fault. I mean you can't argue that you should be able to yolo push somebody you think is vulnerable because otherwise they will keep hurting your team. That's literally the same argument a good player would use to justify making weapons deadlier than pool noodles. If the game doesn't reward you for intelligent and skillful play, the game isn't fun.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 August 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Eh actually beg to differ, pretty sure they lowered the heat cap and buffed dissipation and lasers still did okay. You're also dissipating heat over the 1 second burn time so that helps. And even now, may Clan laser boat assaults can afford to stack SHS to maximize their heat capacity, but DHS dissipation is still better in most cases.

Yes, while you don't push them they are farming your teammates who are foolish enough to let themselves be farmed, but that's their fault. I mean you can't argue that you should be able to yolo push somebody you think is vulnerable because otherwise they will keep hurting your team. That's literally the same argument a good player would use to justify making weapons deadlier than pool noodles. If the game doesn't reward you for intelligent and skillful play, the game isn't fun.

Yeah, I felt at the time that they didn't go far enough with that modification. Not the way we were suggesting. The same builds went from 60% heat per alpha to 85% heat per alpha, rather than going to 110% heat per alpha. The point was to encourage chain firing. If you can still execute a full alpha strike within your heat cap, then the change failed to accomplish its objectives.

Explain to me "foolish enough to let themselves be farmed". Sounds like a very arrogant attitude to have. The game is a calculation of trades, nothing more, and a build with extremely high pinpoint damage is going to out-trade anything it pokes out against, so long as it has secure cover in which to cool off between shots. Particularly in any case where the damage output exceeds the health of a component, it can strip components with each peek and poke, eliminating return fire with every shot. And no, it is not always possible for the target to twist away laser fire. Not even HLLs. Ping makes a BIG difference in reaction time, and host state rewind ensures that everything balances out. Add to that, long range laser shots don't always register on the recipient with noise or direction indication. Only the paper doll updates the damage received. That increases the delay in reaction time, and the half-second it takes to line up and fire a shot before twisting away incoming laser fire can compound the issue further.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 August 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Eh actually beg to differ, pretty sure they lowered the heat cap and buffed dissipation and lasers still did okay. You're also dissipating heat over the 1 second burn time so that helps. And even now, may Clan laser boat assaults can afford to stack SHS to maximize their heat capacity, but DHS dissipation is still better in most cases.

Yes, while you don't push them they are farming your teammates who are foolish enough to let themselves be farmed, but that's their fault. I mean you can't argue that you should be able to yolo push somebody you think is vulnerable because otherwise they will keep hurting your team. That's literally the same argument a good player would use to justify making weapons deadlier than pool noodles. If the game doesn't reward you for intelligent and skillful play, the game isn't fun.

You can still use ‘intelligent’ and skilful play.. (ie pug shield) which I enjoy doing on occasion... but why does the alpha have to be so large? Not only are you hiding behind your teammates but you are rewarded for doing so with these ridiculous pinpoint alphas.. talk about having your cake and eating it too.

C337Skymaster, on 06 August 2021 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yeah, I felt at the time that they didn't go far enough with that modification. Not the way we were suggesting. The same builds went from 60% heat per alpha to 85% heat per alpha, rather than going to 110% heat per alpha. The point was to encourage chain firing. If you can still execute a full alpha strike within your heat cap, then the change failed to accomplish its objectives.

Explain to me "foolish enough to let themselves be farmed". Sounds like a very arrogant attitude to have. The game is a calculation of trades, nothing more, and a build with extremely high pinpoint damage is going to out-trade anything it pokes out against, so long as it has secure cover in which to cool off between shots. Particularly in any case where the damage output exceeds the health of a component, it can strip components with each peek and poke, eliminating return fire with every shot. And no, it is not always possible for the target to twist away laser fire. Not even HLLs. Ping makes a BIG difference in reaction time, and host state rewind ensures that everything balances out. Add to that, long range laser shots don't always register on the recipient with noise or direction indication. Only the paper doll updates the damage received. That increases the delay in reaction time, and the half-second it takes to line up and fire a shot before twisting away incoming laser fire can compound the issue further.

I’ve been noticing that too this year.. you’ll get hit with laser fire and there is no sound or warning.. just damage received.. very annoying.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 06 August 2021 - 07:43 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 06 August 2021 - 07:42 PM, said:

You can still use ‘intelligent’ and skilful play.. (ie pug shield) which I enjoy doing on occasion... but why does the alpha have to be so large? Not only are you hiding behind your teammates but you are rewarded for doing so with these ridiculous pinpoint alphas.. talk about having your cake and eating it too.



I’ve been noticing that too this year.. you’ll get hit with laser fire and there is no sound or warning.. just damage received.. very annoying.

“Pug shielding” is victim mentality. I’m not pug shielding, the pugs are making themselves favorable targets. Or just mindlessly nascaring.


To the second point, agree that is very annoying… not sure what the cause is.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

“Pug shielding” is victim mentality. I’m not pug shielding, the pugs are making themselves favorable targets. Or just mindlessly nascaring.


To the second point, agree that is very annoying… not sure what the cause is.

The point wasn't that 'pug shielding' is necessarily a bad thing.. you can cause some serious chaos and suppression on the enemy from a distance or a flank.. I enjoy doing this myself. The point i was making is that they've made it too powerful. There are way too many benefits being a sniper or 'pug shielder'.. and the buffs for them keep on a comin..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 10 August 2021 - 09:03 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

“Pug shielding” is victim mentality. I’m not pug shielding, the pugs are making themselves favorable targets. Or just mindlessly nascaring.

To the second point, agree that is very annoying… not sure what the cause is.

PUG Shielding just falls under the 'crutch' and every other such categorisation of words used to try and justify a stance without any actual evidence.