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Warden Pack Ecm And Other Things


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#21 w0qj

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 06:49 PM

MWO should reinstate user ability to unequip JumpJet from OmniMech torsos, just like before.

eg: Dire Wolf DWF-C can unequip jumpjets at user's discresion!
This applies to all other Omnimechs (Timber Wolf, Night Gyr, etc.)


View PostLordNothing, on 21 July 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

i kept the non-s version with the stock omnipods. though i swapped out the ppcs for lpls and the atms for extra ssrms. its workable. the (c) version inherited the 8xcac2 build from the ultraviolet, though with only 8 tons ammo instead of 11. i turned the ultraviolet into an atm42+ssrm10+2xlpl build, which does better than you would think.


#22 1453 R

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 09:54 AM

The more bitsies OmniMechs can change out from their forced-stock skeleton, the more busted OmniMechs are. Piranha already caved on fixed weaponry like the Adder's flamer (which is sensible) and on the tabletop game's rules for fixed armor levels (absolutely mandatory for MWO). Fixed jump jets and secondary equipment is often but not always integral to the identity of a given 'Mech - take the jump jets off a Summoner and the result is an overweight Hellbringer with bad hardpoints. It's an open question as to whether these things should all be unlocked and the only fixed equipment in a 'Mech is its armor, structure, and requisite heat sinks, and frankly that feels like it's probably best served as being a case-by-case basis.

The Whale Charlie doesn't need removable jets. Arguing to be able to remove them might have made more sense when they were awful, but now jets on one's Whale can get that Whale places. Do people want to pull those six tons of jets off the Whale and replace them with six more tons of gun? Yes, because nobody in MWO values anything that isn't Moar Gunn. Should they be allowed to?

Dunno. My gut says no, but my gut's not a video game designer or developer.

Edited by 1453 R, 22 July 2021 - 09:55 AM.


#23 CFC Conky

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 02:44 PM

View Postw0qj, on 21 July 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

The stock Dire Wolf DWF-C(S) with all-C torso/arms/legs parts is actually viable, with 500+ damage/game laser vomit alternative builds.

2x LPL, and the rest is some sort of Medium Laser of your choice (I chose 4x MPL; others might want ERML).

Does not sound like much, just 6 lasers?
But you can stuff your entire Dire Wolf with DHS heat sinks, with a few tons leftover with maxed out armor.
Runs quite cool Posted Image


I ended up equipping my Whales with 5xLPL. You can do 6 but I prefer the heat management with 5. So far it's been the most effective build for me.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

#24 FupDup

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 03:49 PM

View Post1453 R, on 22 July 2021 - 09:54 AM, said:

The more bitsies OmniMechs can change out from their forced-stock skeleton, the more busted OmniMechs are. Piranha already caved on fixed weaponry like the Adder's flamer (which is sensible) and on the tabletop game's rules for fixed armor levels (absolutely mandatory for MWO). Fixed jump jets and secondary equipment is often but not always integral to the identity of a given 'Mech - take the jump jets off a Summoner and the result is an overweight Hellbringer with bad hardpoints. It's an open question as to whether these things should all be unlocked and the only fixed equipment in a 'Mech is its armor, structure, and requisite heat sinks, and frankly that feels like it's probably best served as being a case-by-case basis.

The Whale Charlie doesn't need removable jets. Arguing to be able to remove them might have made more sense when they were awful, but now jets on one's Whale can get that Whale places. Do people want to pull those six tons of jets off the Whale and replace them with six more tons of gun? Yes, because nobody in MWO values anything that isn't Moar Gunn. Should they be allowed to?

Dunno. My gut says no, but my gut's not a video game designer or developer.

Just wanna point out that the jets on the Summoner, Nova, etc. are not the same as the jets on the DWF or TBR. The jets on the latter two are not present on the base configuration, whereas the jets on the former two are present on the base config.

Whether or not something is hardwired is normally determined by if it is present on the base config. Anything mounted on top of the base is supposed to be removeable. For example, the Mist Lynx has a probe stuck in its head but the Shadow Cat can remove its probe. The Warhawk has 20 hardwired DHS, etc. People still don't understand the difference between modular jets and hardwired jets yet they understand the concept when applied to literally any other piece of equipment.

Generally I agree with the idea that we shouldn't unlock everything on Omnis, but I think that anything not present on the base config should be fair game for removal. Mechs like the SMN, NVA, etc. keep their jets (because those are supposed to be hardwired) but mechs like the KFX, TBR, etc. could probably be made modular again without causing any problems.

PGI originally locked pod-jets purely to nerf the TBR during its reign as the best mech in the game. The meta has changed a lot since then, thus the nerf is no longer needed.

PS: Also the MLX really ought to have its probe made removable because it's such an outlier.

#25 Daneel Hazen

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 03:59 PM

ECM is kind of invasion era unclanlike but.. it is 3067, quiaff?

#26 Wildstreak

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 05:39 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 20 July 2021 - 11:46 PM, said:


i always felt the uv was p2w. moving those omnipods to this new dire maybe a little, but you got to give up like 3 tons of ammo to do it. the ecm module costs a ton and the ct jump jet is dead weight that you cant get rid of. so its hard capped somewhere about 1500 damage. this is fine for qp though. maybe dropping a gun for 3 more tons and a tc3.

View PostLordNothing, on 21 July 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:


yea the first half of the beach party event had plunged me way down to middle tier 3. i was in t2 previously. then the pack drops and im almost to t2 again. its definitely providing upward mobility. though i atribute it to the fact that the timby is vomit, and the uv omnipods i put on my dwf-c(s), that was one of my stronger dwf builds, and im generally pretty good with a dire.

I have no Ultraviolet and found a build finally after going through a few others, this build proves the UV is not P2W.

#27 RickySpanish

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 06:52 AM

View PostWildstreak, on 22 July 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:


I have no Ultraviolet and found a build finally after going through a few others, this build proves the UV is not P2W.


What's your build? Inquiring minds would love some advice.

#28 FinnMcKool

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 08:35 AM

If you saved MC from the last few events , you can buy the UV
just saying

this game is not pay to win

you may have to work at it

you may have to wait a bit

but you can get whatever

with very few exceptions

For free eventually

that's why people who can spend; Spend
Cause people can play for free, who doesn't want to support that?

#29 1453 R

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 08:54 AM

View PostRickySpanish, on 23 July 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

What's your build? Inquiring minds would love some advice.


Unsolicited, perhaps...but as a T5 nobody who's never really piloted whales a day in their life prior to this, I hadda crash-course hard in figuring out how these dumb things worked.

If you don't care about jump capacity and just want the most possible firepower with the best possible heat dissipation, you can stuff Vxheous's posited Gausslasers build strictly into the Prime arms and use both Prime torsos for -10% heat generation. You lose any reasonable jump capacity at all, but you gain four extra heat sinks and powerful quirks. Like so: DWF-C(S). Obviously leaves your weaponry more vulnerable to getting ripped off, but an armless Whale generally isn't a real threat anymore either way and this version might be able to shoot twice in a row with enough skills invested in Ops and minus-heat Firepower.

The version I ended up running and doing well with, completing my Warden challenges and a good chunk of the Beach Baggies event, was a similar build remapped onto full-jets Charlie, like so: DWF-C(S) This one runs super heckin' hot if you blammo the lasers; I fished for all the heat nodes I could reasonably get in the tree and I still go from "Cold" to "Oh Dear" whenever I push the ALL TEH LAZARS button...but when you need firepower the build can provide, and the improved jump capacity lets it lean on the geese and bigboi beamers for long-distance poking. This Whale can get to spots people aren't expecting a Whale, cut across terrain that would otherwise remove a Whale from the fight for ten years, and otherwise offset more of the Whale's whalishness than a lot of folks might expect.

The version I started with was something more akin to this: DWF-C(S). This version has a lot less overall alpha damage, 71 points compared to 91, but it runs drastically cooler than hex-ML Gausslasers and is generally a better infighter. You get ten extra armor on each arm by dropping the Prime energy hardpoints and running just cannons. You're also a lot less vulnerable to getting your arms ripped off in general since your entire laser armament is in the torso. Technically you can use the Sierra right torso and get both the second Goose and the cERLL in there, abandon the left arm completely and just cram spare heat sinks in it, but I found myself disliking the convergence issues with having geese in both arm and torso.

The jump-capable Gooselasers Charlie has honestly started turning me around a little bit on the Dire Whale. I hated that thing when it was just a boring Prime(I). Didn't care about all that Unmatched Firepower(C); it moved so bloody slow and was so easy to isolate and pick apart that it just didn't matter. All the firepower in the world doesn't help you if you're not playing absolutely perfectly. But a full three-jet Charlie with jump duration skill nodes and ECM? That thing can make plays. It can move around the map better, get into and out of terrain easier, and handles itself well enough in a fight. I've had a surprisingly high percentage of excellent games in it. The thing's appalling slowness forces me to be more considerate in my movement and engagements, which is my usual issue - Rei be nigh pathologically over-aggressive and averse to chickendicking, but you literally can't be overaggressive in something as slow and ponderous as a Whale. Gotta pick your fights, but the jets and ECM means the Charlie can pick fights no other Whale has the chance to pick.

#30 RickySpanish

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 09:03 AM

Thanks, I'll have a look. One thing I am cautious of is jump jets on a very hot build though. They hamper heat dissipation enough that you cannot use them often or at all if you plan to shoot. With that hot gauss build I'd be tempted to knock armour off the legs and restore it to the head, and maybe fit an extra heatsink. Gauss and lasers seems like a good DWF build.

Edited by RickySpanish, 23 July 2021 - 09:03 AM.


#31 1453 R

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 09:14 AM

View PostRickySpanish, on 23 July 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

Thanks, I'll have a look. One thing I am cautious of is jump jets on a very hot build though. They hamper heat dissipation enough that you cannot use them often or at all if you plan to shoot. With that hot gauss build I'd be tempted to knock armour off the legs and restore it to the head, and maybe fit an extra heatsink. Gauss and lasers seems like a good DWF build.


I'd be more tempted to split the difference between Hot Jumpy Goose and Cold Jumpy Goose, strip the medium lasers down to five and bolt in an extra heat sink. Could strip the medium beamers down to four even, but each laser you cut is gonna be another few weight grades of 'Mech that keep a side torso after you hammer it. I can say that during my own play the jets didn't hamper me all that much - this isn't a poptart build, Whale jets are much too slow for that. The jets here are strictly access-the-map jets, you generally shouldn't be needing a full blammo burn and a full jet burn at the same time. If you do, you'll be in trouble, but the 93% shown in MechDB is scarier than reality. When you get a bunch of heat gen Firepower nodes and all of the relevant Operations nods you can reach without being dumb, it makes a massive difference.

#32 LordNothing

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 12:47 PM

View PostWildstreak, on 22 July 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

I have no Ultraviolet and found a build finally after going through a few others, this build proves the UV is not P2W.


that really depends on how well you dwf. the 8 gun dire was an instant meta. though the way mech packs work in mwo, the p2w is a temporary condition that goes away the second you can buy it with mc/cbills. its also not the norm, in that a lot of packs were doa. naturally any mech that was op at time of release could be initially classified as p2w, the kodiak was in a similar situation. while some mechs are/were defacto p2w, i have to admit that i dont think that was intentional.

if p2w was truely a problem with this game, every mech pack would be p2w and you would have power creep far exceeding current levels. the other side of it is we would probibly have mechs like the bane.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 July 2021 - 12:50 PM.


#33 PocketYoda

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 04:20 PM

The timberwolf is crazy overpowered. I'm running 2x Lpl and 5 x er med and i get easily 500-600 a match, one match yesterday i pulled nearly 1200 damage.

And now i'm in tier 4 again... sigh

My Dire wolf runs 3x Lpl set to two different firing sets and 4 er mediums, seems to be quite heat friendly.

Edited by MechaGnome, 23 July 2021 - 04:27 PM.


#34 Wildstreak

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 06:06 PM

View PostFinnMcKool, on 23 July 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

If you saved MC from the last few events , you can buy the UV
just saying

You do not need the UV.

View PostRickySpanish, on 23 July 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

What's your build? Inquiring minds would love some advice.

Now that I am done with all the events and some RL stuff these past weeks, I will put it out tomorrow. I just need some time to make a short video and get a screenshot or few.

EDIT - I do not know how people are making all Laser builds work, every one I try is either too hot or has too much tonnage left over after I pack every space possible. I tried building one all Laser build someone said here, I had 13 tons left unused.

Gauss does not work for a lot of people in Puglandia QP like me, I tried but it is not needed. Neither are large ACs.

Edited by Wildstreak, 23 July 2021 - 06:08 PM.


#35 1453 R

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Posted 23 July 2021 - 10:05 PM

View PostWildstreak, on 23 July 2021 - 06:06 PM, said:


EDIT - I do not know how people are making all Laser builds work, every one I try is either too hot or has too much tonnage left over after I pack every space possible. I tried building one all Laser build someone said here, I had 13 tons left unused.

Gauss does not work for a lot of people in Puglandia QP like me, I tried but it is not needed. Neither are large ACs.


'All laser' builds aren't really a thing, unless you're going for cLPL spam. Which, frankly, I'd think would be better on the Warhawk, the Blood Asp, or the Rifleman IIC that can fire four at once with no spooky heat. Still, I've seen a few.

The reason Gausslasers is so good is because Gauss rifles and lasers are the peanut butter and jelly of the BattleTech weapons world. Gauss rifles are dense as hell, taking up a ton of weight in relatively little crit space, and deal nearly heatless damage. Lasers are low-weight, low-space weapons that generate smegloads of heat. You can fit lasers and requisite heat sinks around a gauss rifle without impacting the gauss at all - the gauss eats up tonnage, the lasers eat up your heat handling and critslot reserves. Each weapon essentially 'consumes' a different resource entirely, and so they compliment each other very well on 'Mechs that can carry both.

A Dire Whale can sling two gauss rifles for thirty points of heatless pinpoint damage, then load sixty points of beams alongside those goose waffles with adequate heat handling to make use of the heat resource their Gauss don't use. The result? Flexible, versatile armaments with a tremendous amount of killing power and the ability to fight even in extreme heat. Pure laservomit won't compete on something like a Dire Whale; laservomit usually has to burn its unused tonnage on improved speed and learn to outmaneuver threats to compete with Gaussvomit.

#36 Wildstreak

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Posted 24 July 2021 - 05:33 PM

Done.

The UltraDire is born.





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