117 replies to this topic

[Thorqemada]

I will post this Video again, this time not for the minute 48 comment but for the minute 57 and some seconds comment.
https://www.twitch.t...r=all&sort=time

The guy that comments is looking at the loadout of the Mech and its LRM+Narc and he says:
"I despise you"

That does telegrapfh very well the sentiment toward LRM - deeply ingrained disapproval toward this weapons system and its users.

All the problems with LRM aside of the psychological side be balance problems that the game inflicted to itself.
The way LRM works it can only work a multilaiuncher spam weapon bcs it is so very inefficient.
Which increases the disapproval toward the very Weapon and its users - its a toxic cycle:
Thw Weapon gets nerfed, players find ways to still use it which usually means suprboating and teamwork exploitation and by that way it increases the disapproval toward it.

And that cylce needs to be shattered - i am curious and intriguied how the solution will look.

PS: And for the inevitable replies - i am not a LRM-Boater, i allways used it as tactical weapon of supression and assistance and the most LRM Boat i ever played in any minimaly significant amount was the quirked 2xLRM10 Hunchback that i scrapped when it was skill-maxed.

So, i do not promote anything here out of interest to get a weapons efficiency or effectivity increased - it simply see a very misbalanced, misaproved, mishandled weapon system that is a legit part of the lore and deserves to be an useful option in itself and for the players that like missileplay.

[ThreeStooges]

if you can't hit some thing with lrm you have two options:

1. move your mech closer with the w key.
2. use moar lrm;eventually you will break a hole in that rock/wall in your way.

[FinnMcKool]

you can get that kind of damage but it is not easy, I did get about 900 in a Trebuchet and the same in a Golden boy ,

My highest was 1892 in a Blood asp Omni mech ,

But i will admit luck and a good team , as well as trying and playing smart

The big Lurm boats probably get some where from 600 to 1200 on average

My treb gets about 500 to 600 average on good nites with 400 more normal.



this was all within the last few weeks

Edited by FinnMcKool, 05 August 2021 - 05:59 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

FinnMcKool, on 05 August 2021 - 05:56 PM, said:

you can get that kind of damage but it is not easy, I did get about 900 in a Trebuchet and the same in a Golden boy ,

My highest was 1892 in a Blood asp Omni mech ,

But i will admit luck and a good team , as well as trying and playing smart

The big Lurm boats probably get some where from 600 to 1200 on average

My treb gets about 500 to 600 average on good nites with 400 more normal.



this was all within the last few weeks

..so, now go on and play a different 50t mech without lurms and do 900dmg in it, consistently.
*
you can see where one of the inherent problems with lurms comes from, right?



*and ofc that can be done; it's just actual work with anything but lurms, and a 'I'll drink my beer lefthand and farm 900dmg with my rightclick-righthand at the same time' with em.

[Dogstar]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 06 August 2021 - 05:24 AM, said:

..so, now go on and play a different 50t mech without lurms and do 900dmg in it, consistently.
*
you can see where one of the inherent problems with lurms comes from, right?

The only inherent problems with LRMs are the imaginary ones that LRM haters keep inventing. This thread is a pretty good example of the sort of things they say, the same tired and invalid arguments again and again.

and just to keep on track, I do about the same damage in LRM boats as other mechs, I expect that most people do, because the 'no-skill weapon that farms tons of damage' is purely in the imagination.

Frankly, if there were a weapon that took no skill and gave you even 300+ damage every match then every single player ever would be using it.

Edited by Dogstar, 06 August 2021 - 08:04 AM.

[pattonesque]

Well, the damage that you do in an LRM boat is likely less effective overall since it’s spread out. It’s still useful but less so than someone hitting good pinpoint shots

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Dogstar, on 06 August 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

The only inherent problems with LRMs are the imaginary ones that LRM haters keep inventing. This thread is a pretty good example of the sort of things they say, the same tired and invalid arguments again and again.

and just to keep on track, I do about the same damage in LRM boats as other mechs, I expect that most people do, because the 'no-skill weapon that farms tons of damage' is purely in the imagination.

Frankly, if there were a weapon that took no skill and gave you even 300+ damage every match then every single player ever would be using it.

sorry to say, but you're lurming wrong, then. or maybe I wasn't clear on the point I'm trying to make.
here's a current real-world-example:
taking a dakka- or laserhunchie, I can push it reliably to 700+ damage quite often.
taking my trusty frenchbucket (same weight), I have around the same numbers when my tubes run empty.
the big difference:

doing said 700 in the hunchie leads to several kills, several kmdds, several 'nonfunctional mechs' on the other side - and it's a lot of work.
doing 700lrm-dmg in the tbucket is like peeing in the wind, leads only to kmdds if others kill them, or kills if you focus on an all-but-dead mech.
and it's no work at all. hell, like mentioned above, I drink my beer while lurming.

maybe you're that much better than me and you can do the same with lurms as with direct-fire - I kinda doubt it to be blunt.
direct-fire is more effective - and it's a hell of a lot more dangerous than IDF-lurmin and more work on top (and IDF is where most of the lurm-problems are).
in terms of XP and Cbills, raw meaningless damage like in spreadable lurms, atms and streaks nets you a very high output as is.
one could argue it's way too high, when a 6kill-heavy-gauss-fafnir with 500dmg gets LESS payout than a 1200dmg-snva with "leftclick/rightlick-hold" attitude whose damage is high in numbers, but relatively meaningless in the end.


the kicker however isn't the weapon, but people using them; many lurmers see a "high"-dmg-number and think they did good, when reality is often something entirely else. it also teaches the wrong things (like staring, cause you don't wanna lose that lock) and punishes people when riding a non-lurmer-mech cause of said habits they aquired as lurmers.


now, I don't 'hate' on lurms, I run them myself from time to time. they're the best beer-mechs as said, and beers are there to be drunk. so: lurm on.
I still don't allow myself to live in that imaginary "lurms require skill and are as valuable as anything else"-world; they require less skill, and they're less useful than direct-damage to a point of your choosing.
lurms are the relax-o-weapons of mwo, and that's okay. there's no need to invent some other reason to use them.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 06 August 2021 - 10:50 AM.

[FinnMcKool]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 06 August 2021 - 05:24 AM, said:

..so, now go on and play a different 50t mech without lurms and do 900dmg in it, consistently.
*
you can see where one of the inherent problems with lurms comes from, right?



*and ofc that can be done; it's just actual work with anything but lurms, and a 'I'll drink my beer lefthand and farm 900dmg with my rightclick-righthand at the same time' with em.

i understand both sides of the argument really I do

but it isn't consistent really if your trying to win and help your team nothing is

[Thorqemada]

I think i understand that it is the high damage number that makes people think a weapon is good or bad and for reward farming high damage is obviously good.

I object that in the sense of combat effectiveness high damage = good weapon.
To me it appears that quick kill = good weapon!

And a good pilot is a pilot that has the gunnery skills and understanding of the Mechs he faces so he is able to aim at weak spots to kill most quickly also.

So, in my judgement a pilot + weapon combination that kills most quickly their target is doing it the right way.
Quick kill usualy come from focussed danage on the kill locations of a Mech.

That LRM be unable to focuss damage and therefore needs to do excessive amounts of damage is in fact the very statement how bad this weapon has become!

[FinnMcKool]

Thorqemada, on 06 August 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

I think i understand that it is the high damage number that makes people think a weapon is good or bad and for reward farming high damage is obviously good.

I object that in the sense of combat effectiveness high damage = good weapon.
To me it appears that quick kill = good weapon!

And a good pilot is a pilot that has the gunnery skills and understanding of the Mechs he faces so he is able to aim at weak spots to kill most quickly also.

So, in my judgement a pilot + weapon combination that kills most quickly their target is doing it the right way.
Quick kill usualy come from focussed danage on the kill locations of a Mech.

That LRM be unable to focuss damage and therefore needs to do excessive amounts of damage is in fact the very statement how bad this weapon has become!

I will agree with just about every thing you say , except that the LRM does have its place in the game , because it is a team game, if the Lurmer is playing to help the team it really can help

But if it gets Buffed I'm afraid it will really be over powered , it is not a precise weapon , its more like suppression fire , it does more damage but less kills

its in a good place right now

I also under stand there are people not playing as a team, this is a problem with any weapons system though

Edited by FinnMcKool, 06 August 2021 - 12:26 PM.

[HauptmanT]

The entire point of LRMs is long range, indirect suppression fire. No other weapon can do it quite as well. You can assist a light behind cover who's in a circle fight with another mech, from half a map away.

These abilities SHOULD make it less effective in a line of sight brawl.

[D V Devnull]

HauptmanT, on 06 August 2021 - 04:15 PM, said:

The entire point of LRMs is long range, indirect suppression fire. No other weapon can do it quite as well. You can assist a light behind cover who's in a circle fight with another mech, from half a map away.

These abilities SHOULD make it less effective in a line of sight brawl.

Hey there... While it's possible that I get what you're saying, that exaggeration of "half a map away" sounds a little excessive, particularly when it comes to the Polar Highlands or Terra Therma maps. Perhaps just saying "750 Meters" or "a grid and a half" would be a more appropriate depiction? After all, no current Lock-On Missile happens to be able to reach 6 Grids (3000 Meters) on the battlefields, which leaves all of the following weaponry...

• AC/2
  
• UAC/2
  
• LB2-X AC
  
• AC/5
  
• UAC/5
  
• LB5-X AC
  
• most Gauss (except the I.S. Heavy)
  
• ER PPC
  
• ER Large Laser

...from both Tech Bases to outrange those Lock-On Missiles rather harshly. Quite frankly, I think that this Weapon List which turns out being about 19 in total is at least enough reason to return the LRM Max Range to 950 Meters (exactly halfway between 900 and 1000) after all this time, particularly with ATMs even outranging (and more-or-less doing better damage than) them as well. Well, that and fix the Lock Angle/Times back to what can be considered playable and reasonably fun levels, as it's kind of stupid that somebody can jam their self in another player's face at point-blank and knock the lock without even having ECM equipped, and it's also sad that it often takes far too long to Lock-On in order to help a Teammate which the MatchMaker put somebody with. Heck... With MRMs and ATMs around, LRMs really don't need the lowered LoS Arc and the problems & confusion that it causes. Both of the Tech Bases already have their choice of Mid-Range LoS Missile Weapon to use!


~D. V. "does not think you caught all the maps in your 'half a map away' distance statement" Devnull





[Post Edited by its' Author for just one word that they did not need to use.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 07 August 2021 - 04:57 PM.

[FinnMcKool]

Using Skills the LRM range is 1035
thats without the fact some quirks
add range also

Skills and Quirks are an important part of the game
if anything i would like to see more ability's to
specialize your mechs even more through The
Skill tree

But
I think HauptmanT s point is valid that being the type
weapon LRMs are

Everything is in flux right now , I'm trusting the Cauldron guys though

as it is right now I stand by what I think the LRMs are in a good place
that can change , heck just think how hard it must be to balance this
game , one little change can cause unforeseeable circumstances in
so many ways


LRMs are not as easy as a lot of people want you to think , but it is
a delicate balance

[Kroete]

For me, the main poblems for lrms are:
Flat trajectory;
-ATMs/MRMs do it better
- Get hit terrain more often with the flat trajectory then hit a roof with the old trajectory. If you get a lock and fire and the enemy take a few steps back you hit terrain with the flat trajectory, its better to break los if you want to hit.
Long locktime:
- getting a alpha trying to get a lock, getting a second after i can fire is a bad trad (if you count spread vs pinpoint in it, its even worse), made me using indirect more often.
Lockarc:
- bending was reduce massive, removed skill you need and options you had. Need more often to stay back und use indirect to get the high trajectory to hit something.
Hardcounter:
- Why can a 20 ton mech, doing nothing more then standing still at my legs, harcounter 40 tons of weapons and i cant do anything against that?
Mass ams:
- Massive increase in ams on the field and buffed ams, 30 tubes are often not enough to bring at least a few missiles to the target.
Artemis:
- THE direct fire upgrade has now too much tons for its effect after it lost its locktime reducing

Locktime and lockarc nerfs made then much worse for direct fire,
mass ams let me took much more tubes and let me alpha more often,
flat trajectory let me stay back for the first part of the match for indirect alpha raining and let me kill open mechs with my nearly fresh mech at the end with the flat trajectory missiles and some small lasers.
I need to use my lrms mechs now at the opposite way i was used to and its less fun.
It made me a indirect mass lrm spammer and iam ashamed of it.


But dont count much on the couldron for lockweapon changes,
lockweapons were the only weapons that were nerfed from the "only buffs, no nerfs" guys!

Edited by Kroete, 08 August 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Quote

-ATMs/MRMs do it better

ATM is a weapon that can only fire on the flat trajectory and MRMs are direct fire, so only one of these is comparable and the extra damage is what I'd say gives ATMs an edge otherwise being able to fire direct/indirect is far better.

Quote

- Get hit terrain more often with the flat trajectory then hit a roof with the old trajectory. If you get a lock and fire and the enemy take a few steps back you hit terrain with the flat trajectory, its better to break los if you want to hit.

This is ancedotal and something I can't agree with considering my experience using LRMs. The few times I've gone "I wish I could fire on a high arc" are massively outweighed by the amount of times I can fire and hit someone on the lower arc.

Quote

getting a alpha trying to get a lock, getting a second after i can fire is a bad trad (if you count spread vs pinpoint in it, its even worse), made me using indirect more often.

What the hell are you trying to say? Are you saying that getting generally lower lock-on time and lower spread with direct fire is bad?

Quote

- Why can a 20 ton mech, doing nothing more then standing still at my legs, harcounter 40 tons of weapons and i cant do anything against that?

Because of balance. You have lock-on, homing and indirect fire, the downside is a minimum range.

Quote

- Massive increase in ams on the field and buffed ams, 30 tubes are often not enough to bring at least a few missiles to the target.

Yes firing indirectly is going to see your misilesget eaten up by AMS, so fire directly and punch through with the lower flight time. I've regularly had IS LRM-40 punch through a Corsair's AMS bubble.

Quote

- THE direct fire upgrade has now too much tons for its effect after it lost its locktime reducing

You've already shown to not value the power of direct fire so I don't think you can really judge an upgrade that buffs direct fire.

Quote

Locktime and lockarc nerfs made then much worse for direct fire,

Factually incorrect, a direct quote from the patch notes Attempting a weapon lock in direct LOS will see a 20% reduction in weapon lock-on time over the previous universal lock-on base time.

Quote

flat trajectory let me stay back for the first part of the match for indirect alpha raining and let me kill open mechs with my nearly fresh mech at the end with the flat trajectory missiles and some small lasers.

This sounds like good usage of the abilities of the advantages of LRMs...

Quote

I need to use my lrms mechs now at the opposite way i was used to and its less fun.
It made me a indirect mass lrm spammer and iam ashamed of it.

[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 09 August 2021 - 01:46 AM.

[HauptmanT]

D V Devnull, on 07 August 2021 - 04:54 PM, said:

Stuff

Hyperbole. It's a thing. Learn to know it and not take things so seriously. You'll develope ulcers.

Canyon network and It's snowy version are more along of what I was speaking of. If your in a canyon, and one of your lights is stuck in a turn fight in another canyon, half a map away, all those other weapons will be worth jack and sxxt. But LRMs will be able to help. The price you pay is them not being as good as other LOS weapons.

The planets arent flat friend. There are lots of abrupt features between you and your targets. Thus indirect fire being very valuable.

Edited by HauptmanT, 08 August 2021 - 09:30 AM.

[D V Devnull]

HauptmanT, on 08 August 2021 - 09:29 AM, said:

Hyperbole. It's a thing. Learn to know it and not take things so seriously. You'll develope ulcers.

Don't worry... No ulcers developed here.

HauptmanT, on 08 August 2021 - 09:29 AM, said:

Canyon network and It's snowy version are more along of what I was speaking of. If your in a canyon, and one of your lights is stuck in a turn fight in another canyon, half a map away, all those other weapons will be worth jack and sxxt. But LRMs will be able to help. The price you pay is them not being as good as other LOS weapons.

The planets arent flat friend. There are lots of abrupt features between you and your targets. Thus indirect fire being very valuable.

Indeed, and I think we're pretty much on the same page... As it regrettably stands right now, the IDF currently is far from being valued enough, and needs some improvements. (And it would have to come with LoS enhancements too, otherwise there are people who would unnecessarily scream.)

Heck, both the LoS form AND the IDF form of LRMs (and probably all other Missile weapons) happen to need their spreads narrowed, and about a 5% narrowing would be on the low side (with 7% being reasonable and 10% being the max which I would give it) of enough change. Lock Times are currently atrocious for both methods of attack too, and need to be sped up at least 25% in order to not leave Teammates hanging out to dry. And that Lock Angle is way too grossly narrow, being as the pilot has no allowance to Torso Twist while maintaining a Lock in order to hit whatever Target they're firing on, what with the fact that there is currently an active exploit where you can bump against the Lock-On User in order to negate their Lock without even having ECM equipped. That's actually unfair against Streak Users in particular, so the angle for that needs at least 1 degree (maybe 2) of expansion in order to close that loophole.

But yeah, beyond all of that, the LRM Maximum Range Baseline itself is too low, and should not require an oversize investment in FirePower Skill Nodes to barely reach levels akin to what it was before the changes. Like, I can understand requiring people to have to use at least 7 Skill Nodes to restore the 1000 Meter Range capability without Quirks present, and I could live with that. But, needing ALL 15 (or even around 11 to 12 of them, which requires wandering the Ballistic side) like 'FinnMcKool' states to be currently required is flatly absurd.

~D. V. "feeling like we understand each other on the whole IDF mess, and somewhat on the LoS mess too" Devnull





[Quick Edit by the Post Author for something that got janky while they were typing... and a few missed bits of thought... All fixed now!]

Edited by D V Devnull, 09 August 2021 - 12:38 AM.

[HauptmanT]

Yeh they nerfed LRM range many years ago. When I started they were at 1000m. Tack on range buffs and you get 1200 or so.

People cried, children huddled under their beds in fear, women refused to leave the house, total chaos... apparently.
Now it takes node investment to get them back to where they should be. I personally dont mind, as they were almost useless at that range anyways, without a dedicated spotter who knew to hold that darned lock, even in the face of death.

Most of my effective shots happen sub 600. And if you just want to suppress, you can fire at 9000 meters and they'll get the "missiles incomming" message and dive for cover.

[FinnMcKool]

OK it seems we have heard all the arguments at least twice now,

How about some posts just saying what you want quick and to the point

like I said if anything I would like skills to set up in a way that is more
Direct and to the point of how you want to customize your mech
shouldn't need to take nodes you don't want just to get those you do


otherwise i think lrms are in a good place right now

Edited by FinnMcKool, 09 August 2021 - 04:39 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

HauptmanT, on 09 August 2021 - 05:16 AM, said:

without a dedicated spotter who knew to hold that darned lock, even in the face of death.

99% of the time that dedicated spotter, even if its something silly like a 1RL10 1NARC 1TAG COM-2D, is going to be of greater value alive rather than dead.

Players like you who expect people to throw their mech away so you can splash the enemy free of return fire is a big part of why there's such a negative opinion of LRM players in this community. Even when LRMs are in as balanced a place as they are now, neither oppressive nor useless, there's always the fact that the weapon system attracts players that expect the team to throw themselves away spotting for the "artillery" hiding in the back.