53 replies to this topic

[HauptmanT]

If he's hiding behind a wall, he isnt shooting now is he?

[pattonesque]

HauptmanT, on 03 August 2021 - 11:43 AM, said:

If he's hiding behind a wall, he isnt shooting now is he?

yeah but like, he can expose, shoot, and hide again and if he's good your LRM60 volley is more like an LRM5 volley

[HauptmanT]

pattonesque, on 03 August 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

yeah but like, he can expose, shoot, and hide again and if he's good your LRM60 volley is more like an LRM5 volley

But that's not hill humping now is it?

I think you can see where this is heading. Some maps, LRMs are much less of a threat, and on those maps, one can get away with no AMS. However, the maps where Hill humping is your only option, lack of AMS is a real bad idea. Just bring it with ya. Even if you shoot down only 50 missiles total all match, that's 50 less damage your team took.

My 1400 dmg games happen when no-AMS people all happen to drop together at the same time, on the wrong map. I walk out with 7 kills and nearly 3/4 of a mil c-bills. Still havent got my 8 kill game though... /sad panda

[pattonesque]

I mean, no doubt LRMs are way better and more effective now than they used to be. but speaking from my own experience, I die due to LRMs (and by that I mean they contributed meaningfully to my death, not that they killed me) maybe once a month. and I'm not even that good.

[HauptmanT]

pattonesque, on 03 August 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

I mean, no doubt LRMs are way better and more effective now than they used to be. but speaking from my own experience, I die due to LRMs (and by that I mean they contributed meaningfully to my death, not that they killed me) maybe once a month. and I'm not even that good.

Well I havent played T1 since the reset (staying at T4 for a while cuz it's just more chill). So I dont know how often you see them there these days. But I was able to do good work with them back before the reset even in T1. In lower tiers they are everywhere. Missiles flying all over the place. Just broke 2000 missile kills in my Kitfox week or so ago. That's 2000 damage stopped. yes we won that match, all because of me.

Edited by HauptmanT, 03 August 2021 - 12:23 PM.

[pattonesque]

HauptmanT, on 03 August 2021 - 12:22 PM, said:

Well I havent played T1 since the reset (staying at T4 for a while cuz it's just more chill). So I dont know how often you see them there these days. But I was able to do good work with them back before the reset even in T1. In lower tiers they are everywhere. Missiles flying all over the place. Just broke 2000 missile kills in my Kitfox week or so ago. That's 2000 damage stopped. yes we won that match, all because of me.

they definitely can work in T1. Shoot, here's a recent video where a top-level comp team breaks 1500 damage in a FNR-5E during an actual competitive match. You can sometimes approach those numbers in T1, but since you're pulling folks from T1-T3 I feel like it's mostly people from the lower end of that spectrum.

[1453 R]

Worth noting: that comp video shows a totally different style of play from normal Puglandia "throw missiles at whatever blip shows up on my radar" spam. D A T A was waiting for calls from his team on solid locks that weren't going to disappear on him, he targeted what his team's shotcallers prioritized, he immediately broke off engaging targets he wasn't hitting, and when one of his spotters needed help scraping off a pursuer he was right there bombarding a Linebacker at close range.

LRMs worked for D A T A in that particular match because the whole team was more-or-less built to enable and accommodate his LRM-80 assault 'Mech. The team took advantage of the general lack of overhead cover on Alpine to dump explosives on their enemies until it worked, and the opposing team's direct-fire snipers never got the chance to pick the Fatnir apart.

If you do not have similar support for your LRM-80 assault in Puglandia - and you do not - don't @#$%ing play it. Play something that can stick, move, maneuver and acquire its own locks, instead. There's a reason my most successful "LRM" machines in Puglandia are 'Mechs like THIS, or THIS. You can't get away with the kind of nonsense D A T A pulled in that video Pattonesque linked more than once in a blue moon in Puglandia, so stop frickin' trying.

And TAKE YER DANG AMS. LRM-80 bloatboats can only hit you once or twice before you get into cover unless you suck more than you should - AMS can save you armor you'll need against his buddies while you do.

[HauptmanT]

Constantinople poster knows his stuff. Listen to the man.

A murder ball that everyone has AMS in doesnt need cover. They ARE the cover.

[pattonesque]

1453 R, on 03 August 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

Worth noting: that comp video shows a totally different style of play from normal Puglandia "throw missiles at whatever blip shows up on my radar" spam. D A T A was waiting for calls from his team on solid locks that weren't going to disappear on him, he targeted what his team's shotcallers prioritized, he immediately broke off engaging targets he wasn't hitting, and when one of his spotters needed help scraping off a pursuer he was right there bombarding a Linebacker at close range.

LRMs worked for D A T A in that particular match because the whole team was more-or-less built to enable and accommodate his LRM-80 assault 'Mech. The team took advantage of the general lack of overhead cover on Alpine to dump explosives on their enemies until it worked, and the opposing team's direct-fire snipers never got the chance to pick the Fatnir apart.

If you do not have similar support for your LRM-80 assault in Puglandia - and you do not - don't @#$%ing play it. Play something that can stick, move, maneuver and acquire its own locks, instead. There's a reason my most successful "LRM" machines in Puglandia are 'Mechs like THIS, or THIS. You can't get away with the kind of nonsense D A T A pulled in that video Pattonesque linked more than once in a blue moon in Puglandia, so stop frickin' trying.

And TAKE YER DANG AMS. LRM-80 bloatboats can only hit you once or twice before you get into cover unless you suck more than you should - AMS can save you armor you'll need against his buddies while you do.

oh absolutely. my point was that in years past you'd see LRM teams try to make things work in comp and it rarely did at high levels. Now you have some situations in which it's viable for the reasons you pointed out here

[1453 R]

I just see far, far too many LRM-80 bloatboats in Puglandia screaming at their team to hold locks without any understanding of why their oh-so-impressive missile armament isn't working. If the spotter and the bombardier aren't talking to each other, the weapons are going to suck. if you're not dropping with a dedicated, prepared-to-do-the-job spotter, don't bring the gorram bloatboat. I would argue "don't bring the bloatboat" even if you have the spotter, they don't work well in Puglandia where every other map has tons of places for enemies to find hard cover against LRM fire. If you're going forty klicks an hour because you cut your engine to the minimum to make room for your fifteenth through twentieth tons of entirely unnecessary and overboard LRM ammo, you're not going to be able to deal with enemies using cover against you.

That Stormcrow up there is one of my best-performing 'Mechs specifically because it can fire LRMs from wherever the enemy doesn't want LRMs coming from, and if they take umbrage at me doing that I have the entire close-quarters dagger-fighting armament of a Black Lanner to dispute the point with them (if, sadly, not the Lanner's heat dissipation). And it has its laser AMS and thusly contributes to the team's overall missile protection, as well as sanding off some damage when I'm avoiding enemy missiles myself.

[LordNothing]

pattonesque, on 02 August 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

the COR-7A runs four AMS and no one considers that overkill, if there are LRMs on the enemy team then AMS boats can help quite a bit

in terms of match score, it dominates. but its not that great either firepower wise. a few ac5s and some medium lasers. its a liability in a match with no missiles.

[pattonesque]

LordNothing, on 03 August 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

in terms of match score, it dominates. but its not that great either firepower wise. a few ac5s and some medium lasers. its a liability in a match with no missiles.

if you put a few AC/5s in it, yes, but that's not the common build. 3 RAC/2s and 4 ML is not inconsiderable, particularly at lower ranks where people can't handle the screen shake

tbf I haven't tried it in the past month or so, but it was a top performer for a while

[LordNothing]

HauptmanT, on 03 August 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

But that's not hill humping now is it?

I think you can see where this is heading. Some maps, LRMs are much less of a threat, and on those maps, one can get away with no AMS. However, the maps where Hill humping is your only option, lack of AMS is a real bad idea. Just bring it with ya. Even if you shoot down only 50 missiles total all match, that's 50 less damage your team took.

My 1400 dmg games happen when no-AMS people all happen to drop together at the same time, on the wrong map. I walk out with 7 kills and nearly 3/4 of a mil c-bills. Still havent got my 8 kill game though... /sad panda

i think i ended up getting mine in a mostly ppc and srm mad-iic. the enemy was crippled and the team to chicken to push. i came in from the side and in a moment of heat discipline zen it was kill, kill, kill, kill, kill. and i had a few in the early game. walked away with 9.

my closest games before that were a couple of 7-kill games, one was a bansh 3e, the other was a quad ac10 anihilator. both of these failed because they ran out of ammo. the bansh also was held up by the fact that the last mech alive was an illusive spider, and i was both legged and out of ammo and only had a couple pulse lasers as backup. i guess the take away is if you want ace, use an energy boat. even on the ace maurader build i used every last srm on that thing, and they were well stocked with ammo.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 August 2021 - 03:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

pattonesque, on 03 August 2021 - 03:43 PM, said:

if you put a few AC/5s in it, yes, but that's not the common build. 3 RAC/2s and 4 ML is not inconsiderable, particularly at lower ranks where people can't handle the screen shake

tbf I haven't tried it in the past month or so, but it was a top performer for a while

i like the accuracy and repeatability with the ac5s and i can fire when i need to rather than in a half a second. and sustain is good too as the build runs cool as a cucumber. its a great line mech in the right conditions. though i haven't ran it since the cauldron passes. i prefer to use racs on high mobility platforms.

its still my top ranked mech, but thats all the ams's doing. if it wasn't for that niche this would be an underpowered waste of tonnage. this was the point i was getting at.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 August 2021 - 04:02 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

Why use only 3 when you can have 4?

http://<a href="https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=659&l=d7221d594b9e46ff160f3a80b95a5a60db36526a">PIR-Amssboi</a>

[w0qj]

Why not use Mad Dog MDD-Prime, with good missile quirks using full Set-of-8? Just curious!

1453 R, on 03 August 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

...If you do not have similar support for your LRM-80 assault in Puglandia ...Play something that can stick, move, maneuver and acquire its own locks, instead. There's a reason my most successful "LRM" machines in Puglandia are 'Mechs like THIS, or THIS. ...

Edited by w0qj, 03 August 2021 - 10:43 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

3 AMS is best AMS.

Because then you also get the skill nodes (Survival tree) which further boosts its effectiveness. Something people often forget to get and pretty important.

[Thorqemada]

Depends how many Mech damaging weapons you had to screw for your AMS.
If you have the free tonnage go for it but use mostly ammunition based AMS and not Laser AMS so you can even in the thickest combat use all your weapons without compromise.
Simultaneous Laser AMS + Weapon usage will bring your Mech over the heat limits.
You can switch AMS on and off but i guess most often it is needed when you fight not when you hide.

You will probably see that as you rise it will become superflous as outside of "schowcase" videos there is so little usage/matchimpact of LRM there is no usefull role for an AMS Mech.

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 August 2021 - 11:27 PM.

[Thorqemada]

In regard to videos showing LRM usage i have one form the comp scene where a Team tries to make LRM work:
Blood League 7v7 - Black Omen vs. KDCM - Twitch

They get obliterated!

Yeah, you can argue they are a less talented team which makes them fail but so i can argue the Video that shows the LRM80 Mech was made work by the talented team plus an less talented opponent that could not adapt to it in time and not by the very LRM weapon!

PS: Fights start around minute 14 of the video...

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 August 2021 - 11:38 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

LRMing on River City in a meme-drop is hardly an example of Comp and LRMs not working.


Do I need to find the drops where LRMs have been used and completely obliterated the opposition in Comp play? There have been plenty over the years.