83 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaGnome, on 11 August 2021 - 04:37 AM, said:

There is no evidence against it either..

You can't counter hard data (Light class leader board stats) with some random theory just because there is a modicum of logical reasoning behind it (ie "lights are cheap therefore new players buy them first and then artificially deflate their stats"). There is no evidence to show that is true though, and there is any number of counter arguments to that that also don't have any evidence to back them up (ie "new players will try a light and get ganked because they don't know what they are doing and stay away from lights at first"), but at the end of the day, all we have are the stats. Everything else is just conjecture.

If you don't believe me, look at the leaderboard stats for the top 100 of each weight class and determine average match score, WLR, and KDR for each class. New players won't be on the top 100 so that argument goes out the window, and the results are more or less the same.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 August 2021 - 09:24 AM.

[HauptmanT]

The biggest problem I see, is everyone focus on their own damage numbers. This is probably due to T1'itus. "Gotta be T1, gotta be T1, go to top!"

I love lights because of their role on the battlefield. Annoyance and relieving pressure on the team. I havent checked numbers, as I'm waiting on Jarls, but it sure feels like I have a higher win/loss in my new Jumping Spider 5v than most other mechs. Even with my 2 erMeds poking for a whopping 10 damage. Never underestimate the psychological effect of getting shot in your butt from something 500 meters away, in your rear. I can easily peel off 2 or 3 heavy mechs to squirrel on me and remove their firepower from the main fight. That dumb thing forces you to play like a light should play. Add on the abilities it has in Assault and Conquest games, and it's a darned good mech.

They apparently nerfed the orbital UAVs, but you can still skim right over the enemy team to keep it in pop range, and not even get shot at once. A minute and a half of having the entire enemy team lit up like a christmas tree does wonders for your team as well.

Much like the Raven, 2 erMeds narc and tag. I wont be doing damage myself, but my lurmbloats will have a field day, and give the team an easy win. I havent played mine in years, but Maybe I'll take her out for a spin today. T4 is so much more fun than T1 was... you guys are missing out!

Edited by HauptmanT, 11 August 2021 - 09:31 AM.

[ThreeStooges]

Run stupid builds is the only way to have fun in a light any more. Triple lppcs, ac20, lrm 5s only and so on. I've been using flamers mgs on a mlynx g.

[Capt Deadpool]

D A T A, on 11 August 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

a very few lights are god mode imo,

God mode for whom? For cadets who could use these god-mode light mechs to learn the game quickly and easily? For average players who for some reason haven't figured out that they would be doing far better in a god-mode light mech instead of the medium/heavy/assault they have been using? Or for elite players who would contribute even more significantly to team victories and do far more damage in a meta build (or even not so meta) from the medium or heavy or assault class?

[RickySpanish]

ThreeStooges, on 11 August 2021 - 11:28 AM, said:

Run stupid builds is the only way to have fun in a light any more. Triple lppcs, ac20, lrm 5s only and so on. I've been using flamers mgs on a mlynx g.

6 Clan ER-Medium Lasers works very well on an Incubus-4.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 August 2021 - 09:23 AM, said:

Everything else is just conjecture.

So what is your proposal for a fix then? We buff all light mechs in the game to match the damage output of heavies and assaults? I'm all for buffing the lights that really need help (IE Osiris and Incubus), but I really do believe from experience that a majority of light mechs are fine and it's an issue of the pilot and not the mech itself. Lights have a designated role from scouting and team support, and speed is what keeps a light mech alive. I'm starting to sense severe echo chamber syndrome here.

[1453 R]

Arnold The Governator, on 11 August 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

So what is your proposal for a fix then? We buff all light mechs in the game to match the damage output of heavies and assaults? I'm all for buffing the lights that really need help (IE Osiris and Incubus), but I really do believe from experience that a majority of light mechs are fine and it's an issue of the pilot and not the mech itself. Lights have a designated role from scouting and team support, and speed is what keeps a light mech alive. I'm starting to sense severe echo chamber syndrome here.

I've said it before. I'm saying it again now. This whole bizarre notion some people have, that "lights shouldn't be able to deal damage or fight! They're all SCOUTS! They should be SCOUTING, not fighting, and if the game rewarded SCOUTING then light 'Mechs wouldn't be so bad!" is bad, wrong, badwrong, and wrongbad.

The Adder is not a scout.
The UrbanMech is not a scout.
The Jenner is not a scout.
The Wolfhound is not a scout.

"Scout" light 'Mechs, inasmuch as nitwits believe the role of 'scout' to be "passive observer and collector of information not intended to ever contribute directly to a combat", are actually quite rare. Primarily because in no universe does using a multiple million C-bill fusion-powered war machine weighing a few dozen tons substitute for one guy with an ATV and a set of binoculars. ALL BattleMechs are, at best, recon-in-force. The sole, singular exception is the Ostscout, and even then the Ostscout is a surveyor and pre-combat intelligence gathering machine more than a 'scout' - or rather, an outrider/skirmisher, which is what people think "scouts" in MWO are. An Ostscout which is within ten kilometers of an active combat is an Ostscout that is about twenty kilometers closer to that combat zone than its commander wants it to be.

Light BattleMechs are thirty-ton fusion-driven weapons of war. They are armed with the same guns as every other class of 'Mech. They are clad in the same armor as every other class of 'Mech. Telling your Wolfhound or Jenner or Adder or Osiris "go find the enemy, then find a corner of the map, power down, and wait for us to win for you" is not only the height of idiocy, but also supremely unfun for the light 'Mech pilot. The only people who want all light 'Mechs to be unarmed, helpless 'Scouts' are assault 'Mech pilots who feel like their assault 'Mech should be the undisputed king of the battlefield with no weakness whatsoever.

Many, many canonical light 'Mechs were employed as strikers, raiders, recon-in-force, outriders, and many other roles that required violence and aggressive action. Yes, even Spiders. Spiders are actually quite good as cheap raiders, from a military perspective. Send your Spiders to disrupt enemy supply convoys or to hit lightly guarded outposts. Useless in a 'Mech fight the Spider may be, but it's still a 'Mech, and 'Mech beats no 'Mech. The Spider's speed and excellent mobility via jump jets allows a canny commander to use it to keep an enemy honest and force him to commit assets to garrison and escort duty that he could otherwise be using to try to punch you out, simply because whatever he leaves uncovered, the Spider will ruin.

And even if you don't care about all this armchair general military theory nonsense? Light 'Mechs are an entire class of playable options in this arena shooter game we're all in. They deserve to be playable and fun in the arena shooter format. Telling people "no, you don't get to fight, you only get to look at the fight other people are having fun playing in" is a total ******* move.

So. Once more: stop f@#$ing telling people lights are meant to "scout".

[Capt Deadpool]

Arnold The Governator, on 11 August 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

So what is your proposal for a fix then? We buff all light mechs in the game to match the damage output of heavies and assaults? I'm all for buffing the lights that really need help (IE Osiris and Incubus), but I really do believe from experience that a majority of light mechs are fine and it's an issue of the pilot and not the mech itself. Lights have a designated role from scouting and team support, and speed is what keeps a light mech alive. I'm starting to sense severe echo chamber syndrome here.

In addition to what 1453 said, it is really a matter of extremely fundamental archetype balancing that more experienced dev teams have little trouble implementing in other games. If you give one out of four classes by far the least firepower, what is the necessary hitbox scale, agility, and armor required to allow the class to do similar amounts of damage as the other classes? Likewise, when you look at the class with the most firepower and armor, how slow and wide do you need to make them so that they are not far and away the most powerful class? There are easy metrics such as average damage done and W/L ratio to see how balanced/imbalanced the four classes are against each other. Lore reasons are the only reasons why lights would ever be the most ineffective class, and lore is an incredibly unwise factor to use to balance an online multiplayer game.

[Valdarion Silarius]

1453 R, on 11 August 2021 - 03:42 PM, said:

So. Once more: stop f@#$ing telling people lights are meant to "scout".

I think you missed the line "fire support". Light mechs excel in general scouting and fire support. The whole notion that light mechs excel in scouting is invaluable to early game intel. As a matter of fact light mechs excel in:

1. Countering other light mechs. As a slow heavy pilot I always appreciate a decent light mech pilot that can deny pests from instant backstabbing me.

2. Early game reconnaissance and UAV placement. Invaluable for LRMS and lock ons depending on how fast the reactionary timing of the enemy team.

3. Late game fire support. Light mechs shine when both of the teams are heavily stripped of armor and have exposed cores. I've had lances of urbanmechs that have completely shut me down. Assaults that have horrible hitboxes suffer the worst when it comes to general harassment.

4. Early in game captures for domination and other capture based game modes in QP.

I honestly think you are implying that I have a narrow point of view to think that light mechs are nothing more than scouting tools. I still stand firm in the belief that it is pilot that makes the mech. I will agree that without the proper education for newer players that light mechs will suffer the most out all the weight classes available when played out of their original intended roles.

[Monkey Lover]

Makes you wonder why any military would make 100 ton mech when 3 20ton mechs can easily kill it lol

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 August 2021 - 05:13 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 11 August 2021 - 03:42 PM, said:

So. Once more: stop f@#$ing telling people lights are meant to "scout".

Well that's the thing... originally they WERE meant to scout, harass, flank, etc. Only PGI removed the scouting game mode from the game. And PGI made the player skill ranking system all about raw damage while de-emphasizing capturing and harassing. So the things that light mechs are great at have been greatly reduced in game play to the point that you are both derided and penalized for doing them.

So it's more correct to say... wouldn't it be GREAT if light mechs were great at scouting? Because they really could be if we had a game mode that rewarded such a thing.

[Nightbird]

Lights are great at scouting, you can easily earn 100MS from putting up a UAV in a good spot, getting some initial target spotted bonuses. It's simply not a light's only task and people who want to not fight all shouldn't be in a PvP game.

[Monkey Lover]

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 August 2021 - 06:14 PM, said:

Well that's the thing... originally they WERE meant to scout, harass, flank, etc. Only PGI removed the scouting game mode from the game. And PGI made the player skill ranking system all about raw damage while de-emphasizing capturing and harassing. So the things that light mechs are great at have been greatly reduced in game play to the point that you are both derided and penalized for doing them.

So it's more correct to say... wouldn't it be GREAT if light mechs were great at scouting? Because they really could be if we had a game mode that rewarded such a thing.

Increase map size by 4 times or so and do random spawns. Lights would become very important quickly. I would love this.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 August 2021 - 10:51 PM.

[Kanil]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 08:50 PM, said:

Increase map size by 4 times or so and do random spawns. Lights would become very important quickly. I don't would love this.

Making the enemy difficult to find isn't going to make light 'mechs important, it's just gonna increase the amount of time your deathball spends walking around before engaging.

All you're going to accomplish is taking that part at the start of Polar Highlands where everyone walks in a group to the center, apply it to every map, and make it a lot longer.

[Monkey Lover]

Kanil, on 11 August 2021 - 09:09 PM, said:

Making the enemy difficult to find isn't going to make light 'mechs important, it's just gonna increase the amount of time your deathball spends walking around before engaging.

All you're going to accomplish is taking that part at the start of Polar Highlands where everyone walks in a group to the center, apply it to every map, and make it a lot longer.

This is because everyone knows where everyone else is because spawns are the same spot and maps are small. On a large map you can move quickly to head off an enemy lance if you know where they are.

[YueFei]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 10:59 PM, said:

This is because everyone knows where everyone else is because spawns are the same spot and maps are small. On a large map you can move quickly to head off an enemy lance if you know where they are.

I don't see how this helps. Unless all 3 enemy lances spawn too far away to quickly regroup to support each other, all you're going to do even if you ride in with your own full lance, you're charging a lance into a whole company. How is that of any value to your team?

If you somehow manage to take a bunch of trades in a 12v4 situation and still get out alive, kudos I guess, but unless you massively out-skill those 12 enemies, you probably come out on the losing end of those trades, even if you don't die.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

Makes you wonder why any military would make 100 ton mech when 3 20ton mechs can easily kill it lol

When you only have 12 pilots, you would as commander put them in 12 20 tonners?

[TercieI]

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 August 2021 - 06:14 PM, said:

Well that's the thing... originally they WERE meant to scout, harass, flank, etc. Only PGI removed the scouting game mode from the game. And PGI made the player skill ranking system all about raw damage while de-emphasizing capturing and harassing. So the things that light mechs are great at have been greatly reduced in game play to the point that you are both derided and penalized for doing them.

So it's more correct to say... wouldn't it be GREAT if light mechs were great at scouting? Because they really could be if we had a game mode that rewarded such a thing.

Originally? Scouting mode? The game was around for five years before there was scouting mode. And it had nothing to do with scouting. It was sub-55 ton 4-man brawl with tickets. It was hella fun, but it had nothing to do with the actual function of scouting, which in my (considerable) experience as a light pilot, features in the first couple minutes of comp matches and that's it. You can guide a team a bit with well-placed UAVs and the occasional call in a public match, but it sure isn't the main function of lights there (and it's not in comp either, really, after the first couple minutes).

[Curccu]

TercieI, on 12 August 2021 - 07:30 AM, said:

Originally? Scouting mode? The game was around for five years before there was scouting mode. And it had nothing to do with scouting. It was sub-55 ton 4-man brawl with tickets.

Scouting was very fun 4 vs 4 when both teams wanted to fight instead of that stupid intel collecting bs.
and not just brawl some ranged builds were stupid effective with good aim like dual gauss hbk-iic, 30 ppfldamage with excellent range against 20-50 ton mechs is nasty.

[TercieI]

Curccu, on 12 August 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

Scouting was very fun 4 vs 4 when both teams wanted to fight instead of that stupid intel collecting bs.
and not just brawl some ranged builds were stupid effective with good aim like dual gauss hbk-iic, 30 ppfldamage with excellent range against 20-50 ton mechs is nasty.

Yeah, exit diving sucked.

I didn't mean "brawl" in the MWO sense. You're right, there were a lot of ways to come at it. And even some interesting rock/paper/scissors stuff.

Edited by TercieI, 12 August 2021 - 08:35 AM.