85 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 31 August 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

folks get mad at snipers because they misinterpret a generally good principle, which is "sharing armor." Really what it should be is "sharing attention." A sniper isn't at the front throwing itself on a line of spears like the Atlas, but a good sniper can draw fire from other snipers, draw ineffective fire from shorter-range builds, close off or delay lanes of attack, pick off wounded mechs, chase off flanking lights with a surprise alpha, call out enemy positions, etc.

This. It’s not enough to DAMAGE the enemy, you also have to ENGAGE them. Force them to react to you, either by shooting back or seeking cover instead of whatever they were about to do.

[1453 R]

I see a lot of discussion on whether or not sniping is okay.

That is, honestly, beside the point.

If a teammate ever deliberately attacks you, report them. It is never okay. It is never justified. Frankly, even fighting back isn't really okay. At that point the team is being robbed of two or more 'Mechs instead of just yours, and remember - deliberately attacking a friendly is never okay. Even if that friendly attacked you first.

If you hate a playstyle so much that you cannot contain the need to physically shoot someone using that playstyle, you need to quit the game to desktop, breathe, get some zen, and maybe examine what's going on in your life that you're having such terrible rage issues in this for-fun shooty robits video game. We're all here for fun. Don't ruin anybody else's, unless you're doing it by going on a 1200-damage tear and making them look bad.

[RickySpanish]

1453 R, on 31 August 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

I see a lot of discussion on whether or not sniping is okay.

That is, honestly, beside the point.

If a teammate ever deliberately attacks you, report them. It is never okay. It is never justified. Frankly, even fighting back isn't really okay. At that point the team is being robbed of two or more 'Mechs instead of just yours, and remember - deliberately attacking a friendly is never okay. Even if that friendly attacked you first.

If you hate a playstyle so much that you cannot contain the need to physically shoot someone using that playstyle, you need to quit the game to desktop, breathe, get some zen, and maybe examine what's going on in your life that you're having such terrible rage issues in this for-fun shooty robits video game. We're all here for fun. Don't ruin anybody else's, unless you're doing it by going on a 1200-damage tear and making them look bad.

Beside the point? Er, nope. OP wanted to chat about why people apparently don't like snipers, and gave an example of a situation where people didn't like him sniping. The example justifies the discussion. If you want to talk about whether or not fighting back against a TK attempt is justified, why not take it to another thread as *that* is beside the point.

[pbiggz]

Sniping is a specialist strategy. Specialist strategies are feast or famine. Either you're in the right spot and the enemy is in the wrong spot, and you do a ton of damage, or you're not in the right spot, and you don't do a ton of damage.

That is still not an excuse for your team to throw a temper tantrum and shoot back at you and all those people should be reported.

I've watched many an overly passive sniper in my time (after my untimely death) not doing very much damage. Aside from snickering about it with my friends, or offering some friendly advice in chat, there isn't much I could or would do about it. Hurling abuses at other people for not playing to my own standards is not cool.

[JC Daxion]

To put it simply, because most are not good enough to actually be effective enough to kill people quick enough that NOT sharing their armor is worth the damage they do.

By all means be a great sniper by taking out high damage dealing targets quickly that them being down 400-500 points worth of damaging soaking is worth it.


Many are just not..

[pattonesque]

JC Daxion, on 31 August 2021 - 09:05 AM, said:

To put it simply, because most are not good enough to actually be effective enough to kill people quick enough that NOT sharing their armor is worth the damage they do.

By all means be a great sniper by taking out high damage dealing targets quickly that them being down 400-500 points worth of damaging soaking is worth it.


Many are just not..

you could say the same for brawlers or mid-range traders -- a bad brawler will get murked immediately while left clicking twice, just as a for instance

[JC Daxion]

pattonesque, on 31 August 2021 - 09:07 AM, said:

you could say the same for brawlers or mid-range traders -- a bad brawler will get murked immediately while left clicking twice, just as a for instance

It's not the same because at least they took damage and gave you a moment to do something else..


Even a light that runs in and dies at least took some heat, and most likely a few alphas..meaning your in a better stop when you open fire as they have to recharge/cool.

a bad sniper does nothing, no damage, no distraction, no delay.. no nothing..


BTW everyone has bad matches, The OP was just asking why and that is basically the reason.

Edited by JC Daxion, 31 August 2021 - 09:16 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

JC Daxion, on 31 August 2021 - 09:15 AM, said:

It's not the same because at least they took damage and gave you a moment to do something else..

So you're saying that a brawler being a speed bump on the way to someone earning their Ace of Spades is good game play, but a sniper making someone stop advancing and instead take cover for a few seconds isn't? That doesn't seem like a fair comparison.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i think Snipers have the same problem that LRMers have with the hate. it seems that unless you are up the Brawl you are automatically bad. hell a sniper or LRM can stop a push even if they don't do a lot of damage. all it takes is making that lead mech think twice and back off for the whole push to flounder. hell i have had matches where there is so much AMS that my missiles aren't doing more than 1 or 2 pts per volley but that bitchin' Betty in the ear of that lead assault screaming about incoming missile fire caused them to back off. same goes for snipers. LL beams arcing in or PPC bolts can get folks to rethink their approach hence taking them out of the firing line even if you miss. Gauss is hit or miss since it doesn't have that obvious visual cue, though since you don't have that you are more likely to get in a second or third shot.

honestly like i mentioned earlier it seems that any play style other than Brawling gets a certain amount of dislike or down right hate.

[KaptinOrk]

pattonesque, on 31 August 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

folks get mad at snipers because they misinterpret a generally good principle, which is "sharing armor." Really what it should be is "sharing attention." A sniper isn't at the front throwing itself on a line of spears like the Atlas, but a good sniper can draw fire from other snipers, draw ineffective fire from shorter-range builds, close off or delay lanes of attack, pick off wounded mechs, chase off flanking lights with a surprise alpha, call out enemy positions, etc.

This is the bulk of the issue, IMO. Most players don't care as long as you're actively participating in the fight and engaging the OpFor, even at long range.The problem is that many see the bad snipers/LRMers sitting at 800m, fresh with <300 damage at the end of the game and it leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

[pattonesque]

KaptinOrk, on 31 August 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

This is the bulk of the issue, IMO. Most players don't care as long as you're actively participating in the fight and engaging the OpFor, even at long range.The problem is that many see the bad snipers/LRMers sitting at 800m, fresh with <300 damage at the end of the game and it leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

agree except they get furious at the sniper who's bingo ammo with 1000 damage too

[Angus McFife VI]

It's fairly easy to see why people hate snipers, and it's a justified reason that should not be dismissed.

It isn't fun and it isn't good game design when one enemy can be at no risk and deal massive damage to opponents, and that's exactly what snipers do. Not as bad as in other games, but a poptarting summonor can, from the safety of his base and 11 mechs infront of him, jump up over a building, deal 30 damage to your side torso and then hide again with no chance of retaliation from 90% of your team. Good luck hitting him with meaningful damage unless you have PPCs/gauss and can airshot him without the weapon convergence, which is exceedingly difficult. Sometimes you can try to find cover but he'll keep flying and moving at 81kph following your relative position from 870m just being a disease.

It's not good game design when I can't harm my enemy but he can do as he pleases, period.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 31 August 2021 - 02:57 PM.

[pattonesque]

Dont LRM me please, on 31 August 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

It's fairly easy to see why people hate snipers, and it's a justified reason that should not be dismissed.

It isn't fun and it isn't good game design when one enemy can be at no risk and deal massive damage to opponents, and that's exactly what snipers do. Not as bad as in other games, but a poptarting summonor can, from the safety of his base and 11 mechs infront of him, jump up over a building, deal 30 damage to your side torso and then hide again with no chance of retaliation from 90% of your team. Sometimes you can try to find cover but he'll keep flying and moving at 81kph following your relative position from 870m just being a disease.

It's not good game design when I can't harm my enemy but he can do as he pleases, period.

you absolutely can harm him though, if you get close to him he's v. likely boned and it's not that hard to get close to him. Especially these days, brawling weapons take snipers apart at close range, and dakka can contest them when they poptart.

Edited by pattonesque, 31 August 2021 - 02:53 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

pattonesque, on 31 August 2021 - 02:52 PM, said:

you absolutely can harm him though, if you get close to him he's v. likely boned and it's not that hard to get close to him. Especially these days, brawling weapons take snipers apart at close range, and dakka can contest them when they poptart.

In Faction Play it's impossible, period. In QP it can be done if you're a medium mech, but if he has teammates around you're ******.

[Jugger Grimrod]

I have no issue with Snipers or their role. It's the Assault snipers that I give the scrutiny to. The value of a Sniper is in the damage they can do for the team - not the damage they can take for the team. A good Light, Medium or Heavy Sniper can perform the same function or role as an Assault sniper, but they can never soak the damage that an Assault can. The value of an Assault is their ability to carry more armor and soak more damage than most mechs on the field. When I see a DWF Sniper way in the back, I can't help but think of all of that armor NOT being used. So, Assault Snipers, pull your weight with the damage or be a part of the Problem and not the Solution.

Edited by Jugger Grimrod, 03 September 2021 - 08:43 AM.

[pattonesque]

Dont LRM me please, on 31 August 2021 - 03:16 PM, said:

In Faction Play it's impossible, period. In QP it can be done if you're a medium mech, but if he has teammates around you're ******.

People brawl in FP all the time. Certain maps are friendlier to it than others, and some are very sniper-friendly but you know what map you're dropping in beforehand so w/e. in QP you can do it as any weight class and "if he has teammates around" is bad news in any situation if you're YOLOing in 1vX.

[Valdarion Silarius]

It's the lack of knowledge where people do not understand (mostly newer or inexperienced players) how to counter said snipers. As someone who plays mainly long range mechs, I can see how it is frustrating how you cannot trade with someone that can out range your loadout.

However, I would argue that most sniper builds in MW:O are at a severe disadvantage compared to brawlers. Since positioning is key and when your team goes full nascar to leave you behind, you are basically screwed if you are discovered by the counter nascar enemy team. It's extremely situational depending on how well your team can coordinate that can make or break snipers, and of course including the mistakes that the enemy make during the match.

[TheCaptainJZ]

OP,
I think it's less about what you're doing and your teammates just taking their frustration with the map and change in playstyle against you, unfairly and undeservingly.

Gameplay on HPG has definitely shifted and honestly I prefer most of the changes on this map. That said, sniping from the wall can be OP if you don't have a way to trade range and the accessibility ramps are far on the back side.

[Angus McFife VI]

pattonesque, on 31 August 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

People brawl in FP all the time. Certain maps are friendlier to it than others, and some are very sniper-friendly but you know what map you're dropping in beforehand so w/e. in QP you can do it as any weight class and "if he has teammates around" is bad news in any situation if you're YOLOing in 1vX.

Yes people brawl in FP all the time, but usually only when the other team has brawlers or in the route part where the team dying has lost ttheir mechs is going to respawn again. Meanwhile the sniper was alive the entire time, dealing insane amounts of damage. He's the guy who in the end when his team loses all their lives, he has 3 other mechs still around so he just keeps respawning. You can't brawl him because he's on top of buildings, the walls, and all that ****. He will forever poke you for your HP, you cannot do anything about him, he is eternal. And of course, his last 3 mechs are always 4 ERML 2 HLL or some laser vomit variant.

[1453 R]

So...a sniper who's always in the fight, jockeying for better firing positions, and doing "insane amounts of damage" is bad?

Look, I'm a tater. I'm right down there in the Tater Trenches with y'all. If you're getting your s@#$ wiggled by a trip-peep Summoner or Veagle? That's on you. Their overall DPS is very low and they're generally extremely bad at dealing with pressure. You don't even have to get in their face - if they get caught out of cover they heatcap after maybe two volleys and get wrecked by higher-damage or more sustainable midrange builds.

Pop Peep 'mechs almost operate more like LRM boats than anything else - they're dangerous if they can remain in total cover and take advantage of friendly locks, but they're meat if they get outflanked or pushed on. If you don't have a good chance to flank or push, just hold your ground. Don't give them shots and force the rest of their team to engage. Really - more matches than I care to count come down to a game of waiting for the other guy to get fed up with chickendicking and lose their patience first. The first team to make a boneheaded move out of boredom and frustration is often the one that loses, since the bonehead usually dies pointlessly and provides an opening the enemy can exploit.

Don't be the bonehead. be patient and wait for a good chance. Conversely, if you see someone being a bonehead? Use him? Push after him, support him. If the rest of the team follows suit, maybe the bonehead becomes the point of the spear instead and an aggressive push will yield you victory. And if the rest of the team does not, and you have to break off after the bonehead dies? Well, at least you used his fiery demise to deal some extra damage.