85 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

HermesFenix, on 27 August 2021 - 06:24 PM, said:

Ok, forgive me the rant, but I don't get it. Why all the hate with the snipers?? What's the problem with them?

I have lots of builds, brawlers, snipers, lurmers. Some with cannons, some with lasers, lights, assaults... I like all kind of roles when I play. Even a light with just AMS and NARC.

And one of the type of mechs I enjoy are snipers. Generally gauss and lasers. And almost every single time I use it, I get lots of hate from lots of players... "you are a coward", "you are just camping", "**** you..." and worse insults...

Last match some of my teamates started firing on me just becasue we were losing and I was standing on a wall on HPG watching one of the basement entrances. They attacked me without reason. I killed one of my teammates in self defense, and quitted the game when I saw more of them serching for me.

Now I have 20mins of penalty, and I was just enjoying the game, playing supposedly within A TEAM. I'm the one punished... For what?? Some don't like my playstyle? OK, I don't like some others' either. I don't like my back blown up by a sneaky SRM boat, but that's the way it goes, we all play and have our playstyles. But as long as there is no abuse, let people play how they want.

Seriously, Why all the hate and the harassment? It speaks really bad of the community when this kind of behaviour is tolerated.

Lurmers: First time?

My problem with snipers is that they can (and do) play all the worst aspects of bad lurmers, but with none of the penalties that lurmers get (like 10+ counters, ineffective damage, loosing locks easily).

They can do their thing from such a range that the only counter to them - is another sniper just like them. Bringing us to Sniper Warrior online-type play we are seeing more and more often.

And what irks me the most is that PGI is actively supporting snipers (giving gauss 2000+ meter range for example), but is still nerfing and disregarding LRMs, ATMs and other such weapons. They say "yeah, but LRMs are indirect fire and the other person can't shoot back" - How is that any different from standing in an open field in direct line of fire when your opposition can't reach you because you're too far away to take any damage at all?

Snipers are WORSE then the worst Lurmers ever were. They are all the bad things lurmer were with all the damage of comp players behind them.

Yuck.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Vellron2005, on 06 September 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

Lurmers: First time?

My problem with snipers is that they can (and do) play all the worst aspects of bad lurmers, but with none of the penalties that lurmers get (like 10+ counters, ineffective damage, loosing locks easily).

They can do their thing from such a range that the only counter to them - is another sniper just like them. Bringing us to Sniper Warrior online-type play we are seeing more and more often.

And what irks me the most is that PGI is actively supporting snipers (giving gauss 2000+ meter range for example), but is still nerfing and disregarding LRMs, ATMs and other such weapons. They say "yeah, but LRMs are indirect fire and the other person can't shoot back" - How is that any different from standing in an open field in direct line of fire when your opposition can't reach you because you're too far away to take any damage at all?

Snipers are WORSE then the worst Lurmers ever were. They are all the bad things lurmer were with all the damage of comp players behind them.

Yuck.

A good sniper follows the team and engages the enemy and draws a lot of fire. And you know what, i get shot at a lot.
When I die, i often die as 3rd of my team or so. The endscreen will show 600-700DMG in those instances, while none of my teamamtes brake 400 while playing for about 3 minutes longer. If i had lived through that time i would end up with 1200+DMG.
Reasoning is that If a game goes on for a bit and i approch the time the others lived, i DO have 1000+ dmg, mostly depending on how long the game actually went on even a lot more.

If i die that early, it is most of the time because the assaults and heavys with brawl weapons are refusing to shoot the enemy which is alrfeady in brawl range. They just stand there and are scared to scratch the paintjob. However, when ou cut the first enemy assasult in half and only need 1 more shot, they suddenly wake up and steal the kill, just to the momentarily freeze and look around, but never to actually start pushing a side which already has 2 half dead mechs due to my work.
Often the guy that stole the kill will try to walk backwards but is blocked by the guy behind him who also wanted to steal the kill.
Well guess what, someone got blocked into loosing half his mech.

Another point is positioning, i am normally within 300m of the main body and the first to be at the big guys side to peak around a corner to support them. This brings decent damage numbers, shares armor proportionally and actually helps the big guys surive longer, which in turn will boost my stats, by beeing usefull to the whole team.

Everything in this thread and your post here is based on the bad snipers you see, and totally forgets about the bad brawlers that also exist.

Edited by Dr Cara Carcass, 07 September 2021 - 09:39 AM.

[Nightcrept]

Dr Cara Carcass, on 07 September 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

A good sniper follows the team and engages the enemy and draws a lot of fire. And you know what, i get shot at a lot.
When I die, i often die as 3rd of my team or so. The endscreen will show 600-700DMG in those instances, while none of my teamamtes brake 400 while playing for about 3 minutes longer. If i had lived through that time i would end up with 1200+DMG.
Reasoning is that If a game goes on for a bit and i approch the time the others lived, i DO have 1000+ dmg, mostly depending on how long the game actually went on even a lot more.

If i die that early, it is most of the time because the assaults and heavys with brawl weapons are refusing to shoot the enemy which is alrfeady in brawl range. They just stand there and are scared to scratch the paintjob. However, when ou cut the first enemy assasult in half and only need 1 more shot, they suddenly wake up and steal the kill, just to the momentarily freeze and look around, but never to actually start pushing a side which already has 2 half dead mechs due to my work.
Often the guy that stole the kill will try to walk backwards but is blocked by the guy behind him who also wanted to steal the kill.
Well guess what, someone got blocked into loosing half his mech.

Another point is positioning, i am normally within 300m of the main body and the first to be at the big guys side to peak around a corner to support them. This brings decent damage numbers, shares armor proportionally and actually helps the big guys surive longer, which in turn will boost my stats, by beeing usefull to the whole team.

Everything in this thread and your post here is based on the bad snipers you see, and totally forgets about the bad brawlers that also exist.

I don't think your definition of a sniper is the same as most of ours.

[Vexistential]

My thoughts on this immediately gravitate towards HPG reborn. I've only been playing for about two weeks, almost the exact timeframe that HPG Reborn came out. I never played the original HPG. I really, really dislike HPG Reborn (by far my least favorite map) and it is because of the walls and their inaccessibility. Because HPG is chosen SO MUCH, I have taken to more long ranged builds myself so I can contest snipers while being in the center, but that means that I'm no longer playing the closer range builds that I prefer. I do not like feeling like I have to change my loadouts (and then my playstyle to match it) because of one currently popular map.

I don't have a problem with snipers on canyon network or on polar highlands or any other map. But I despise playing HPG (especially on skirmish) and it is almost entirely due to the sniping and the absurd access ramps way back near the drop zone. I imagine there are many people like me, seemingly in the minority, who really hate the map and it might be spilling out into a general anti sniper sentiment.

Also, I agree with others that it could also be because you are doing too much team damage without being aware of it, or simply "not contributing" enough in certain players' eyes. I played a game a few days ago in one of my longer range builds I've been running as the anti-HPG loadout and I discovered I did sixty something team damage, the most I had ever done (and I have even picked up an accidental team kill in my first two weeks ). I must have directly shot someone on my team several times thinking they were an enemy. I didn't notice it until the end screen, and I was extremely embarrassed, but I couldn't even remember when it was or who I shot. Not much you can do besides play more and get better, I suppose. Also, shooting back at your teammates even if they're trying to kill you is not a good solution. You could try not choosing HPG in the future though!

[Aidan Crenshaw]

@everyone complaining about the ramps being only near the spawns, you are aware that there are ramps from the inside of the ring that mount the walls? I personally find that the walls are 100% more accessible than on original HPG.

[Bamboozle Gold]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 07 September 2021 - 10:08 PM, said:

@everyone complaining about the ramps being only near the spawns, you are aware that there are ramps from the inside of the ring that mount the walls? I personally find that the walls are 100% more accessible than on original HPG.

Somewhat incorrect. There are 4 sections of the wall. The two sections near the spawns are accessible by ramps on the outside, while the two other sections are accessible from the inside. A sniper will likely go on a section accessible by the outside ramps.

The gaps between the sections are small so even a single jump jet will get you across but if your chassis doesn't have any then it's the long walk to the outside ramps.

I would personally like either the 4 sections connected or the outside ramps moved inside.

[Vexistential]

I can't say that I noticed that. I thought the inside ramps led up to a section of wall that was not connected to the spawn ramp wall section.

I just loaded up a testing grounds map and, after running around it for about ten minutes, am pretty confident that there are four sections of wall, two accessible from the inside, and two accessible from the outside. I might be wrong. But I think it's telling that despite playing the map dozens of times I have never had the opportunity to actually explore the map because you have to shelter in the middle unless you can punch the snipers off the walls. And, if you DO go up those inside ramps, you are completely exposed to everyone on the opposite walls, or anyone in the middle. IE, almost everyone.

[Sjorpha]

Everyone is free to play as they wish within the rules, and no one should harass you over that. It's also irrelevant whether you play good or bad, a bad player has the same right to play his own way as a good player does.

That said, by shooting back and killing the teammates who attacked you you kind of stooped to their level. Just because someone else breaks the rules isn't an excuse for you to do the same.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

.. when 24/7-IDF-Lurmers (see several posts above) complain about snipers.. the irony. ^^

[Vexistential]

Can we take a moment to acknowledge that most of the BiG FanS of HPG Reborn don't know that the walls are split into four separate sections?

No?

Too much?

[Castigatus]

Vexistential, on 09 September 2021 - 11:21 PM, said:

Can we take a moment to acknowledge that most of the BiG FanS of HPG Reborn don't know that the walls are split into four separate sections?

No?

Too much?

No, we can't.

Because they do know that already.

Which you would know if you had actually bothered to listen to people before making something up to take cheap shots at people who disagree with you.

Edited by Castigatus, 10 September 2021 - 01:51 AM.

[Vexistential]

Funny, cause I was being quite kind to those who had me asking to reassess the reality of the map.

[R Valentine]

Vellron2005, on 06 September 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

Lurmers: First time?

My problem with snipers is that they can (and do) play all the worst aspects of bad lurmers, but with none of the penalties that lurmers get (like 10+ counters, ineffective damage, loosing locks easily).

They can do their thing from such a range that the only counter to them - is another sniper just like them. Bringing us to Sniper Warrior online-type play we are seeing more and more often.

And what irks me the most is that PGI is actively supporting snipers (giving gauss 2000+ meter range for example), but is still nerfing and disregarding LRMs, ATMs and other such weapons. They say "yeah, but LRMs are indirect fire and the other person can't shoot back" - How is that any different from standing in an open field in direct line of fire when your opposition can't reach you because you're too far away to take any damage at all?

Snipers are WORSE then the worst Lurmers ever were. They are all the bad things lurmer were with all the damage of comp players behind them.

Yuck.

It's a total lie that snipers can only be countered by other snipers. The counter is getting close to them and out DPSing them, and that happens all the time. You either need to push in overwhelming numbers or take a route that isn't being covered. The problem is, the MWO player base refuses to play maps any differently. They have one way of running across the map, and if that avenue is closed to them by enemy sniper fire they pretty much shut down. "Potato.exe has stopped working". The answer is, do something different. Find a different route. Go a different way. Use parts of the map that normally go unutilized.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Kiran Yagami, on 10 September 2021 - 08:51 AM, said:

The answer is, do something different. Find a different route. Go a different way. Use parts of the map that normally go unutilized.

but how can you do that when you're busy motivating your team to get you that lock that you so desperately need?

[1453 R]

I mean, most taters have never seen those parts of the map. If it's not on a direct, shortest-route line between Spawn A and Spawn B, and roughly a twelve hundred meter bubble in the middle? Puglies don't know it exists.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Kiran Yagami, on 10 September 2021 - 08:51 AM, said:

It's a total lie that snipers can only be countered by other snipers. The counter is getting close to them and out DPSing them, and that happens all the time. You either need to push in overwhelming numbers or take a route that isn't being covered. The problem is, the MWO player base refuses to play maps any differently. They have one way of running across the map, and if that avenue is closed to them by enemy sniper fire they pretty much shut down. "Potato.exe has stopped working". The answer is, do something different. Find a different route. Go a different way. Use parts of the map that normally go unutilized.

im fill me remembered to Battlefield 2 , when the Lots of Lemmings push to Kharkand Hotel and kills in the line of fire while not find other Ways as run fast frontal in the Enemy ad crys about LMG and Nadespammers...play like easy Prey and die as prey

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 21 September 2021 - 02:19 AM.

[Vellron2005]

@Kiran Yagami *It's a total lie that snipers can only be countered by other snipers. The counter is getting close to them and out DPSing them, and that happens all the time. You either need to push in overwhelming numbers or take a route that isn't being covered. The problem is, the MWO player base refuses to play maps any differently. They have one way of running across the map, and if that avenue is closed to them by enemy sniper fire they pretty much shut down. "Potato.exe has stopped working". The answer is, do something different. Find a different route. Go a different way. Use parts of the map that normally go unutilized.*

I guess you missed my point. Yes, you can walk up to a Sniper and engage it, just like you can walk up to an LRM boat and engage it. But you're probably gonna get shot by said sniper and lurmer. But if you're, for example, a sniper, and you're shooting at a mech standing 1200m away, there is no other mech type, except another sniper, that can return fire, not even a lurmer. How is that fair? How is that different from a lurmer shooting you with IDF, when you can't return fire without moving closer? Lurmers were nerfed to medium range for having that ability. Snipers were rewarded for having that ability with even greater range and lowered heat penalties.

How is that fair?

[R Valentine]

Vellron2005, on 21 September 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

@Kiran Yagami *It's a total lie that snipers can only be countered by other snipers. The counter is getting close to them and out DPSing them, and that happens all the time. You either need to push in overwhelming numbers or take a route that isn't being covered. The problem is, the MWO player base refuses to play maps any differently. They have one way of running across the map, and if that avenue is closed to them by enemy sniper fire they pretty much shut down. "Potato.exe has stopped working". The answer is, do something different. Find a different route. Go a different way. Use parts of the map that normally go unutilized.*

I guess you missed my point. Yes, you can walk up to a Sniper and engage it, just like you can walk up to an LRM boat and engage it. But you're probably gonna get shot by said sniper and lurmer. But if you're, for example, a sniper, and you're shooting at a mech standing 1200m away, there is no other mech type, except another sniper, that can return fire, not even a lurmer. How is that fair? How is that different from a lurmer shooting you with IDF, when you can't return fire without moving closer? Lurmers were nerfed to medium range for having that ability. Snipers were rewarded for having that ability with even greater range and lowered heat penalties.

How is that fair?

How is it fair that at 300M you do 3-4x as much DPS as he does? Answer: it's not. It isn't designed to be. You have your win condition. He has his. It's up to you to make your win condition a reality. It's really you who didn't bother reading the post, because as I said, the answer is taking alternate routes and using the parts of the map that most people don't. There's always more than one way to approach a target. Even barring that, a good portion of the time you can ignore single or even a pair of sniping mechs. They only have vision over so much of the map, so find enemies to engage that aren't in those areas. You can fight as you like without his interference. But again, that requires you to utilize the map in different ways and different spots than you are used to. Not just running to the center of the map to begin your large, left-handed circle.

[pattonesque]

Vellron2005, on 21 September 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

I guess you missed my point. Yes, you can walk up to a Sniper and engage it, just like you can walk up to an LRM boat and engage it. But you're probably gonna get shot by said sniper and lurmer. But if you're, for example, a sniper, and you're shooting at a mech standing 1200m away, there is no other mech type, except another sniper, that can return fire, not even a lurmer. How is that fair? How is that different from a lurmer shooting you with IDF, when you can't return fire without moving closer? Lurmers were nerfed to medium range for having that ability. Snipers were rewarded for having that ability with even greater range and lowered heat penalties.

How is that fair?

There are games -- and times in this game -- where snipers have been massively overpowered. But that is not the case in MWO's current iteration. What you're describing here is just like, how the brawler/sniper contest should work. If the sniper manages to damage the brawler enough before the brawler gets close, the sniper wins. If not, the brawler wins. Both have win conditions. Getting killed by a sniper before you manage to close can be evidence of snipers being overpowered, or it could just be the sniper achieving his win condition fully while the brawler does not. More likely in this case it's an example of the sniper playing very well or the brawler playing very poorly.

I've had plenty of examples on new HPG of managing to close with snipers unseen as a light or medium brawler, and the result has been an extreme win on my end because they ignored a key component of their win condition.

[Commoners]

You can straight up attack the snipers on the walls with the 90 and 100 ton jump jet brawlers after the JJ buff. I've done it multiple times and you can just sweep the wall with a heavy metal or, if you're a madman willing to spend the tonnage and skill nodes in the JJ tree, with a marauder II brawler. 80% of the time you can just run through the basement and into the opposing gate unseen and just jump up at your leisure to start slapping people.