66 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

i honestly find more often that there is a tonnage disparity more often than just both teams bloated. more often than not its one team having almost no assaults and the other having many. this though i due more to Soup Que MM not properly calculating Groups into the balance equation. sadly we don't have the population to remove groups from QP yet and i don't think we will until we get something that will bring a mass number of players into or back to the game.

any system that would reward any one category more than another would cause the opposite effect of people never playing the heavier Assaults. also like has been said you have some tremendously good light players out there that would get even more rewards while you slow assaults get torn up by bigger and bigger light packs.

also wait time, especially during lower player count times, can be long enough as it is. i think what we really need to concentrate on right now is bringing more people into the game.

[pbiggz]

I know what you'll say but...

drop decks...

They force players to bring a mix of weight classes, so, all things being equal, you eventually end up seeing a solid spread of pretty much everything throughout the course of a match.

[1453 R]

pbiggz, on 07 September 2021 - 06:02 AM, said:

I know what you'll say but...

drop decks...

They force players to bring a mix of weight classes, so, all things being equal, you eventually end up seeing a solid spread of pretty much everything throughout the course of a match.

To be fair. You know what I'd say because I already said it. Hueh.

1453 R, on 06 September 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

I'm opposed to drop decks because one of the key things that makes this game feel like a BattleTech game - even with all its jank, its weirdness, its Solaris showboating builds, its bizarre screw-ups and warts - is that your 'Mech is valuable. Lose it and you're done. Hell, let it get damaged frivolously and you can be done. Slamming junk-first into an enemy firing line is the move of an absolute boneheaded nitwit who didn't deserve the 'Mech they were riding in the first place.

Drop decks completely, utterly, irrevocably, and invincibly destroy that. When the best move becomes "Oh shoot, I just lost an arm with a few lasers in it. Oh well, this ride's done, time to push Eject and get into the next one", your game has stopped being a BattleTech game and become Titanfall. Titanfall is fun, but I have no interest in playing it. Especially when I click "Mechwarrior Online". Drop decks happen? then slamming junk-first into an enemy firing line becomes just the normal way to play the game, and that would be the death knell for MWO.

I said it, I meant it. Call of Derpy Freespawns where you can just eject from any 'Mech below 80% integrity and pick up a new one whenever you like would ruin this game. Some of the best stories anyone has to tell in this game is when they're at critical integrity, fighting on one leg with their last operational weapon, desperately pulling every cheap stunt and dirty trick in the book to get the last little bit of edge they need to defeat their opponent. The moment Call of Derpy Freespawns come in, you lose those moments forever. You may as well add regenerating armor and infinite ammo for munitions weapons at that point, because there's no BattleTech left anymore.

[GoodTry]

As long as both teams are in the same boat, I don't really care what the composition is per team.

[VeeOt Dragon]

as far as drop decks go i have mentioned my own idea a few times. the way i would do them is to keep QP a one and done match. how i would work it is as follow.

1- you have a dropdeck with perhaps limited to one mech of each weight class not a overall tonnage limit. treat as a separate deck from FP but otherwise be the same (so you can buy more decks if you want).

2- before you start a match you set up your choices then click the match start.

3- as far as map/mode select it functions the same.

4- once you get on the "Ready Up" screen you have say a minute (or until everyone has hit the ready button whichever comes first) to select one of those 4 mechs.

5- once you chose your mech and hit ready you are locked on that mech and the match starts (after either the time runs out or everyone readies up). in the case of those that don't pick a mech before the match starts they just have to use the first mech in the deck (or perhaps the last mech in that deck that they used).

6- the match then plays out like normal.

this would also help with situations where you pick say an LRM boat but get stuck with Solaris, or other mech that doesn't do as well on the map selected. though since you can't see what the other team is bringing you still can get uneven teams. (it would also help to have an indicator next to the mech code on the team list that shows if that is a L, M, H,or A mech (for those players who have not memorized the alpha numerics of all the mechs, hell i have been playing for 4 years and i still haven't memorize all of them)

[Kanil]

1453 R, on 06 September 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

As for Conquest stopping 'kill the other team', it's been my experience that teams that utterly ignore the cap - the whole "kill everybody then cap when they're dead" bit - tend to lose more than win.

That's an awful lot of post that doesn't actually suggest any changes, either that or I missed it.

You say that mobility needs to be incentivized on the game mode level, and that conquest is the only game mode MWO needs, is your plan to just... remove the other modes and say "hey now that you know it's conquest every time people will stop using their assault 'mechs"? Is my understanding of your position correct? Or is there something else you'd suggest as well?

Because in my experience, Conquest ends 12-X a lot more than it ends 750-X, and I'm really not sure 24/7 Conquest is going to get people out of their fatties. Like I really don't care that I only go 55kph, that's usually fast enough, and the few times I lose because I'm too slow to capture are going to be heavily offset by all the times I won by bringing the big guns and lots of armor.

[1453 R]

Hm. Could just be a skew in what I'm seeing down in the Idjit Tiers, but most Conquest games I see has the team naturally break up and engage in smaller clumps, with more mobile players bouncing through points while a mini-murderball frags up on Theta.

I'll admit that I do not begin to have all the answers. I just know that when ground doesn't matter and the team doesn't have to be in any specific place, there's no reason to not bring the fattest thing you can and just clump up like cheap cat litter. What's the enemy gonna do? Flank you and your eleven hundred tons of buddies? Threaten those spots on the map nobody cares about to get you to move?

I'd be down for nothing-but-Conquest, but I also know I'm an aberration. There's not much I can think of that would force the objective beyond accelerating the counter rate so you have to stay on top of that ****, but that would mostly just make Conquest worse.

I dunno, Kanil. I want mobility to matter more and be more attractive to players so they naturally choose to pilot overbloated assault monsters less, but I have no real idea how to accomplish that goal. I was hoping somebody else might.

[Bamboozle Gold]

I don't like Conquest. It feels bad to lose 12-X because the red team had a light just capping. It's also boring to be that light. Same with Assault when the game ends without a single shot fired because 4 red lights and a medium sat in your base for 20 seconds.

The various buffs in Incursion are cool but shouldn't require you to go back to base. Running back to base is just more boring busy work. If there were control points on the map that give your team buffs when held that would be a much better version of Conquest.

[Nightcrept]

I like the idea of the MM giving bonuses to even out the mechs.

So if the MM needs more lights it automatically gives light mechs higher bonuses.

[LordNothing]

idea.

quickplay gets a drop deck containing a mech of each class. at the beginning of the match mech select opens up, on a first come first serve basis. if there are already 3 players in a weight class then the option becomes closed for other players and they must choose another weight class. this way you can force 3-3-3-3 without jacking up wait times.

of course if i were to choose between that and having fat teams, id rather have fat teams.

[GoodTry]

LordNothing, on 07 September 2021 - 06:39 PM, said:

then the option becomes closed for other players and they must choose another weight class.

I foresee a lot of disconnects when people can’t get the mech class they want.

[LordNothing]

GoodTry, on 07 September 2021 - 08:31 PM, said:

I foresee a lot of disconnects when people can’t get the mech class they want.

yep

[MrMadguy]

Such topic appears every day. And answer is always the same. Tonnage doesn't mean anything - skill does. "Force unpopular thing" design is terrible. I should be able to play, what I like. Period. I hate Lights/Mediums due to two main reasons, that aren't connected to their performance at all: 1) They're ugly 2) They don't allow diverse builds. That's it. Lights are OP enough and Assaults are gimped enough by themselves to also do it artificially. Doing so would cause me to quit this game permanently.

Edited by MrMadguy, 08 September 2021 - 12:27 AM.

[1453 R]

You can play what you want all you like. The plain fact of the matter is that heavy and assault 'Mechs are grossly overrepresented in current play dynamics, lights are almost nonexistent, and even mediums tend to be an endangered species. That points to issues with balance somewhere. Not necessarily play balance - again, the game's reward structure is grossly biased towards Fatness.

Lights are hardly "Ohh-Pee". Assaults are by no means "gimped". Matches are too top-heavy, and I'd like to see that change if it's possible. You're perfectly capable of playing your assault 'Mechs, but you don't get to squeeze out all the other weight classes because you don't personally care for them, ne?

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

1453 R, on 08 September 2021 - 05:02 AM, said:

You can play what you want all you like. The plain fact of the matter is that heavy and assault 'Mechs are grossly overrepresented in current play dynamics, lights are almost nonexistent, and even mediums tend to be an endangered species. That points to issues with balance somewhere. Not necessarily play balance - again, the game's reward structure is grossly biased towards Fatness.

How does one class of mechs being favoured over another indicate inbalance? Could it be that a lot of people are fairly casual and the heavier mechs are typically just easier to play with a generally lower skill floor?

[GoodTry]

1453 R, on 08 September 2021 - 05:02 AM, said:

The plain fact of the matter is that heavy and assault 'Mechs are grossly overrepresented in current play dynamics, lights are almost nonexistent, and even mediums tend to be an endangered species.

Maybe this is tier-dependent. My experience in tier 3+ games is that there are a fair number lights and tons of mediums. Plus, you can play whatever you want anyway, and you can be extremely effective in a light, medium, heavy, or assault, so what's the problem?

[1453 R]

Counterpoint: how do you know that a massive predilection for one class of 'Mech frequently taking up 40+% of the queue does NOT indicate an imbalance in the system somewhere?

The easiest 'Mechs to play in MWO are mediums. Especially for players coming in from other games; almost universally when my group's introduced new players to MWO, they gravitate towards mediums or even chunky lights, since those feel most familiar to their other-FPS-trained instincts. They have to play MWO for quite a bit before they start filtering up towards the heavier designs.

* * *

The problem is that overfat matches are boring. There's no movement, there's no maneuver, there's just two clumps of 7+ 30kph overarmed underengined s@#$boats grinding against each other like somebody drew Rule 34 for 'Glacier Mating Habits'. Faster 'Mechs reliant on maneuvering and running battles are left to flap in the wind, presented with over twelve thousand HP worth of enemy team and told "deal 12,000 damage your own-*** personal self or you're worthless". The reward system ensures that damage and only damage is valued, even over and above winning the game. It's obnoxious and I'd like to see it be less of a thing, if I could?

[MrMadguy]

1453 R, on 08 September 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

Counterpoint: how do you know that a massive predilection for one class of 'Mech frequently taking up 40+% of the queue does NOT indicate an imbalance in the system somewhere?

The easiest 'Mechs to play in MWO are mediums. Especially for players coming in from other games; almost universally when my group's introduced new players to MWO, they gravitate towards mediums or even chunky lights, since those feel most familiar to their other-FPS-trained instincts. They have to play MWO for quite a bit before they start filtering up towards the heavier designs.

* * *

The problem is that overfat matches are boring. There's no movement, there's no maneuver, there's just two clumps of 7+ 30kph overarmed underengined s@#$boats grinding against each other like somebody drew Rule 34 for 'Glacier Mating Habits'. Faster 'Mechs reliant on maneuvering and running battles are left to flap in the wind, presented with over twelve thousand HP worth of enemy team and told "deal 12,000 damage your own-*** personal self or you're worthless". The reward system ensures that damage and only damage is valued, even over and above winning the game. It's obnoxious and I'd like to see it be less of a thing, if I could?

While I agree, that heavier 'Mechs are harder to play, especially Assaults, super-especially old obsoleted IS Assaults, but I don't agree, that slower matches are bad. Deathball matches are bad. Slow matches are good, because they allow you to at least play the game, instead of dying within one minute. Of course if it's not snipe-fest. Snipe-fests are boring.

Edited by MrMadguy, 08 September 2021 - 07:24 AM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

1453 R, on 08 September 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

Counterpoint: how do you know that a massive predilection for one class of 'Mech frequently taking up 40+% of the queue does NOT indicate an imbalance in the system somewhere?

Because there are factors outside of how well balanced mechs are that will make people choose different weight classes. I'd say most people don't care about how well balanced a mech is when choosing one to play as long as it isn't too bad.

Quote

The easiest 'Mechs to play in MWO are mediums.

While FPS vets might be able to adapt to the faster gameplay of mediums easier the requirement of MW specific mechanics to make up for being squishier is why I wouldn't say mediums are the easiest to play. I'd say heavies because they still have mobility but also the armour to take hits and the speed.

Quote

The problem is that overfat matches are boring.

If fat matches were unfun as you say then people would naturally go "well that wasn't fun I'll play something more mobile" to better enjoy the game.

Quote

Faster 'Mechs reliant on maneuvering and running battles are left to flap in the wind

I already said lights have a higher skill ceiling so you saying lights are useless is just not true, in fact when I'm in a light I love being in fat matches because I know the chance of running into another fast mover is significantly less and there is so much more tonnage on the table to farm.

[Wildstreak]

Monkey Lover, on 06 September 2021 - 11:19 AM, said:

3-3-3-3 is the right way it worked before and can again.

Issues with tonnage sizes range a lot depending on the tier in my view. I find a lot more lights and mediums with a balance mix match in the upper tiers. What you see is not what everyone is seeing.

Nope, even with 3 per class you could see before queing that the percentage of Lights was smaller than anything else.

John Bronco, on 06 September 2021 - 01:23 PM, said:

I don't think this is a universal opinion, based on the discussions on these forums. The prevailing thought seems to be that all classes should have similar viability in terms of performance potential, thus lights and maybe some meds will continue to need adjustment. But if the balance folks ultimately think things are about where they're supposed to be, and people still favor heavy mechs - so what?

I want people to have the freedom to play what they want to play and not be inconvenienced by it.

Freedom to play what they want has been proven to be a bad idea in many games.
Furhter it begs the question if all the majority wants is Heavies, why offer 3 other classes?

Kanil, on 06 September 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

I mean, the only game mode right now that isn't Skirmish With Extra Steps is FP Conquest*, specifically because the dropdeck makes it physically impossible to win by just killing the other team. That isn't true in QP Conquest, where most matches end with one team killing the other then capping. Since you're opposed to dropdecks, I'm curious what you think would stop the vast majority of Conquest games from being kill other team -> cap now that they're dead.

If killing the other team remains the primary way to win, then people will naturally gravitate towards the 'mechs that are the best at that, which are the big ones. A mass of assault 'mechs is the reasonable outcome of the game as currently designed. (Side note: Punishing people for trying to win is a terrible idea.)

* Technically Scouting exists too, but smokediving is not the way forward.

'Everything is Skirmish' is the fault of the reward system and less Conquest matches are kill the other team then cap as you think.

My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, on 08 September 2021 - 05:10 AM, said:

How does one class of mechs being favoured over another indicate inbalance? Could it be that a lot of people are fairly casual and the heavier mechs are typically just easier to play with a generally lower skill floor?

Any game that has a lot of characters to play should provide reason to use said characters, not accept that some will just be ignored else why provide those?
No Heavies do not have a lower skill floor, let's put the fault where it belongs, players only want to just pile lots of damage and kill than any other role, a common problem in many games.