66 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

maybe buffing squirrels is needed. we need those little predators to keep the assaults in check. of course too many fatmechs people complain, too many squirrels people complain. there is no way around it. salt is the way.

[MrMadguy]

Overall I hate that theads, where guys say things, that are complete opposite to real truth. Like "Assaults are OP", "Lights are gimped", "slow matches are bad". About last one. It was fast deathball matches, where too fast 'Mechs were able to attack enemies too quickly from all directions (including back of course), that were considered bad. We needed slower matches. Wrong attemps to achieve it via making big maps were performed, because such maps balanced fast 'Mechs, but completely gimped slow ones. We needed more predictable attack avenues. We needed to increase TTK. And now this guy pops and says, that "slow matches are bad". Yeah. Sounds like trolling. Because using completely false statements for provocation purposes - is exact definition of trolling.

Edited by MrMadguy, 09 September 2021 - 07:24 AM.

[pbiggz]

This might be an unsolvable problem without a dramatic adjustment to QP (i.e. improved objectives that actually matter, and some form of respawn, and again that is not what this thread is about so im not discussing it).

Light mechs have a purpose in battletech. That purpose is that they are cheap. That's pretty much it.

This game is a multiplayer arena shooter. The goal right now (unfortunately) is to murder the enemy team. Without real objectives and real respawns, even the best game mode (conquest) is just murder the enemy team with extra steps. That's not what light mechs were really for.

We obviously cant turn this game into a gritty mercenary simulator with a deep economy, that ship sailed long ago, so the question is what do we have to change for everyone to feel like they can play the mechs they want to play? Lighter mechs should be effective, and in many cases today, they are! They're a consistent noob trap for players who don't understand them and try (and fail) to pilot them, or players who dont understand them and try (and fail) to shoot them, but at levels of play where the other team can reliably aim, they can be a bit lackluster. So, what do we change to make sure they're represented in as many levels of play as they can be?

[Wildstreak]

LordNothing, on 08 September 2021 - 11:22 AM, said:

maybe buffing squirrels is needed. we need those little predators to keep the assaults in check. of course too many fatmechs people complain, too many squirrels people complain. there is no way around it. salt is the way.

Except the Assaults are not the ones needing checking, Heavies are the most popular.
Used to be Assaults checked the Heavies but not anymore so.....

pbiggz, on 09 September 2021 - 05:26 AM, said:

real respawns

Dead, let it go.

[1453 R]

MrMadguy, on 09 September 2021 - 04:30 AM, said:

Overall I hate that theads, where guys say things, that are complete opposite to real truth. Like "Assaults are OP", "Lights are gimped", "slow matches are bad". About last one. It fast deathball matches, where too fast 'Mechs were able to attack enemies too quickly from all directions (including back of course), that were considered bad. We needed slower matches. Wrong attemps to achieve it via making big maps were performed, because such maps balanced fast 'Mechs, but completely gimped slow ones. We needed more predictable attack avenues. We needed to reduce TTK. And now this guy pops and says, that "slow matches are bad". Yeah. Sounds like trolling. Because using completely false statements for provocation purposes - is exact definition of trolling.

There's this bizarre, pervasive notion in the game amongst a shockingly large percentage of the player base that slow 'Mechs shouldn't be penalized for being slow.

They think it's only right and natural that a lighter, faster 'Mech should be scared of the intense firepower and infinite armor of a giant assault 'Mech, and frankly they're correct. Smaller 'mechs should absolutely be wary of the stark difference in firepower between themselves and the Fatness.

But those same players are outraged, offended, confused, and outright hostile when the corollary is brought up - the idea that their slow 'Mechs should be scared of the mobility of lighter, faster designs. This post is a phenomenal example: "predictable attack lanes", "slower matches", "reduce TTK" (assuming that means 'make 'Mechs take longer to kill', since reducing time to kill means making them easier to bring down), and a number of lines parroting the idea that assault 'Mechs are somehow underpowered, lights are evil cheating baby-eating beast monsters preying on weak, helpless assault jocks, and some chatter about how larger maps unfairly gimp slow 'Mechs. All pointing to the idea that mobility is not supposed to impact games, and that anything which can disrupt an assault 'Mech's ability to stand in one spot and hose down a sightline is Bad For Game.

Needless to say, the idea is ludicrous. If someone chooses to pilot a huge, slow lumbering mountain of armor and guns, that person should absolutely be afraid of fast, nimble strikers picking them apart from outside their firing arcs. That is in many cases what the fast strikers are for. It's senseless to complain about faster 'Mechs having an edge in mobility over slower ones and the game giving those 'Mechs the occasional opportunity to leverage that edge. Anyone who does so is mostly signaling a deep, probably irreconcilable misunderstanding of how the game is supposed to function.

[MrMadguy]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 07:01 AM, said:

There's this bizarre, pervasive notion in the game amongst a shockingly large percentage of the player base that slow 'Mechs shouldn't be penalized for being slow.

They think it's only right and natural that a lighter, faster 'Mech should be scared of the intense firepower and infinite armor of a giant assault 'Mech, and frankly they're correct. Smaller 'mechs should absolutely be wary of the stark difference in firepower between themselves and the Fatness.

But those same players are outraged, offended, confused, and outright hostile when the corollary is brought up - the idea that their slow 'Mechs should be scared of the mobility of lighter, faster designs. This post is a phenomenal example: "predictable attack lanes", "slower matches", "reduce TTK" (assuming that means 'make 'Mechs take longer to kill', since reducing time to kill means making them easier to bring down), and a number of lines parroting the idea that assault 'Mechs are somehow underpowered, lights are evil cheating baby-eating beast monsters preying on weak, helpless assault jocks, and some chatter about how larger maps unfairly gimp slow 'Mechs. All pointing to the idea that mobility is not supposed to impact games, and that anything which can disrupt an assault 'Mech's ability to stand in one spot and hose down a sightline is Bad For Game.

Needless to say, the idea is ludicrous. If someone chooses to pilot a huge, slow lumbering mountain of armor and guns, that person should absolutely be afraid of fast, nimble strikers picking them apart from outside their firing arcs. That is in many cases what the fast strikers are for. It's senseless to complain about faster 'Mechs having an edge in mobility over slower ones and the game giving those 'Mechs the occasional opportunity to leverage that edge. Anyone who does so is mostly signaling a deep, probably irreconcilable misunderstanding of how the game is supposed to function.

Assaults would be powerful, if only armor and firepower would mean anything in this game. They should be tanks by design. They should "tank" damage, because they just can't take advantage of using cover. But today any Medium 'Mech has enough firepower to two-shot their ST. And therefore they're just big slow clunky target dummies. Situation is even worse for IS. At least Clans have built-in XL engines, that make them fast enough to be bearable. But try playing IS Assault with STD engine and low wide hardpoints. And Lights are just trivial. Even I with my zero Light piloting skills can have decent matches in Lights like Arctic Cheater via running non-stop and spamming JJs.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 09 September 2021 - 07:30 AM, said:

Assaults would be powerful, if only armor and firepower would mean anything in this game. They should be tanks by design. They should "tank" damage, because they just can't take advantage of using cover. But today any Medium 'Mech has enough firepower to two-shot their ST. And therefore they're just big slow clunky target dummies. Situation is even worse for IS. At least Clans have built-in XL engines, that make them fast enough to be bearable. But try playing IS Assault with STD engine and low wide hardpoints. And Lights are just trivial. Even I with my zero Light piloting skills can have decent matches in Lights like Arctic Cheater via running non-stop and spamming JJs.

Counterpoint, you can 2 shot most lights and in a face to face battle a medium will die 100% of the time.

[1453 R]

Case Study: "does the average medium have the firepower to two-shot an assault 'Mech side torso?"

The WHK-PRIME is fairly average in terms of assault 'Mechness. It has relatively minimal durability quirks, easy to target shoulders, and exists in the rough middle of the assault weight bracket. yes, that link up there is inoptimized as hell, I just needed a shareable link. ignore the underweighting, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

The Warhawk has a rough average of 60 to 65 frontal armor on its shoulder under most circumstances, with no Survival tree. It's also got 36 structure, and we'll ignore the structure quirk for now. That means a total frontal health pool of between 96 to 101 total durability on that shoulder. We're ignoring back shots for now because back shots are supposed to be significantly more devastating.

This necessitates a ~50-point alpha strike to two-shot a Warhawk's shoulder. Probably closer to 55, if you want to guarantee the job and you somehow find a Warhawk with no 18-point structure quirk or Survival nodes. Relatively few Sphere medium 'Mechs carry a 55-point alpha strike, and few of the ones that do are good. The Sphere is DPS-focused over alpha burns; most of the Sphere's best mediums (approximating as best I can from increasingly-outdated GrimMechs) are focused on MPL skirmish-brawling or missile-based brawlers, either SRMs or MRMs. Even most Clan builds are more PPC pokers or sustainable brawler builds.

Now obviously Clan laservomit is exceptionally potent and it's perfectly possible to get a 55-point alpha or more on a Clan medium. My second favorite Stormcrow manages a 62-point burn without too much effort. It is, however, hot as hell, and that same Stormcrow does not get an immediate follow-up shot without shutting down and exploding. Even with all the heat nodes I can give it, that lacerator is well over half its heat bar after a full Clukk Yew button press from zero, any follow-up shots it takes are with the medium lasers. Usually not all four of them, either.

Most Clan laservomit builds with as 55+-point alpha will be similar - they do not get a second full 55+-point burn without shutting down mid-burn and staying asleep for quite some time. And a medium 'Mech who decides to take a mid-battle nap in front of an assault 'Mech is a medium 'Mech not long for this world.

That has, in my consistent experience, been the general trend. A Sphere medium 'Mech that can take two or more full alpha shots in quick succession does not have the raw striking power to harvest an assault shoulder in only two shots, and a Clan medium 'Mech that does have enough raw striking power to harvest a shoulder in two shots does not have the heat capacity to take those two shots in quick succession. To say nothing of the long cooldown/cycle time for lasers, or the excessive burntime for the most dangerous Clan beams. And again - this is on an 85-ton Clan assault 'Mech with no Survival and whose minimal durability quirks we are ignoring. All eighty-ton assault 'Mechs, including the Clan ones, have significant durability quirking; the Warhawk is quite possibly the most fragile assault 'Mech left in MWO.

I just don't see it. Non-Claservomit mediums can't carry enough focused alpha to burn out an assault shoulder in two shots, and the Claservomit mediums are heat capped too quickly to get two shots off in any reasonable timeframe. Even the starchiest of potatoes will have time to react to a medium Claservomit 'Mech with five seconds of beam cooldown and a second and a half of burntime.

[Verilligo]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 08:02 AM, said:

Case Study: "does the average medium have the firepower to two-shot an assault 'Mech side torso?"

The WHK-PRIME is fairly average in terms of assault 'Mechness. It has relatively minimal durability quirks, easy to target shoulders, and exists in the rough middle of the assault weight bracket. yes, that link up there is inoptimized as hell, I just needed a shareable link. ignore the underweighting, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

The Warhawk has a rough average of 60 to 65 frontal armor on its shoulder under most circumstances, with no Survival tree. It's also got 36 structure, and we'll ignore the structure quirk for now. That means a total frontal health pool of between 96 to 101 total durability on that shoulder. We're ignoring back shots for now because back shots are supposed to be significantly more devastating.

This necessitates a ~50-point alpha strike to two-shot a Warhawk's shoulder. Probably closer to 55, if you want to guarantee the job and you somehow find a Warhawk with no 18-point structure quirk or Survival nodes. Relatively few Sphere medium 'Mechs carry a 55-point alpha strike, and few of the ones that do are good. The Sphere is DPS-focused over alpha burns; most of the Sphere's best mediums (approximating as best I can from increasingly-outdated GrimMechs) are focused on MPL skirmish-brawling or missile-based brawlers, either SRMs or MRMs. Even most Clan builds are more PPC pokers or sustainable brawler builds.

Now obviously Clan laservomit is exceptionally potent and it's perfectly possible to get a 55-point alpha or more on a Clan medium. My second favorite Stormcrow manages a 62-point burn without too much effort. It is, however, hot as hell, and that same Stormcrow does not get an immediate follow-up shot without shutting down and exploding. Even with all the heat nodes I can give it, that lacerator is well over half its heat bar after a full Clukk Yew button press from zero, any follow-up shots it takes are with the medium lasers. Usually not all four of them, either.

Most Clan laservomit builds with as 55+-point alpha will be similar - they do not get a second full 55+-point burn without shutting down mid-burn and staying asleep for quite some time. And a medium 'Mech who decides to take a mid-battle nap in front of an assault 'Mech is a medium 'Mech not long for this world.

That has, in my consistent experience, been the general trend. A Sphere medium 'Mech that can take two or more full alpha shots in quick succession does not have the raw striking power to harvest an assault shoulder in only two shots, and a Clan medium 'Mech that does have enough raw striking power to harvest a shoulder in two shots does not have the heat capacity to take those two shots in quick succession. To say nothing of the long cooldown/cycle time for lasers, or the excessive burntime for the most dangerous Clan beams. And again - this is on an 85-ton Clan assault 'Mech with no Survival and whose minimal durability quirks we are ignoring. All eighty-ton assault 'Mechs, including the Clan ones, have significant durability quirking; the Warhawk is quite possibly the most fragile assault 'Mech left in MWO.

I just don't see it. Non-Claservomit mediums can't carry enough focused alpha to burn out an assault shoulder in two shots, and the Claservomit mediums are heat capped too quickly to get two shots off in any reasonable timeframe. Even the starchiest of potatoes will have time to react to a medium Claservomit 'Mech with five seconds of beam cooldown and a second and a half of burntime.

BSW-P1

Not that I debate the general point of your post, but you set the bar a little too low.

Edited by Verilligo, 09 September 2021 - 08:42 AM.

[1453 R]

...do note that I specified "few of the ones that do are good". MRM spam mediums aren't going to be able to focus their entire damage output on a single assault shoulder either unless they're in point-blank range, which tends to be a bad place to be against most assaults. Murms are even more scattery than surms. That Memewacker there could certainly do plenty of damage, but its ammo reserves are rather poor for that much MRM launcher. I would posit that if it tried to two-shot a KDK-3 shoulder? The KDK-3 in question would feed it a literal ton of autocannon ammunition in the doing and make it regret the very brief remainder of its truncated life.

[Requiemking]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 09:31 AM, said:

...do note that I specified "few of the ones that do are good". MRM spam mediums aren't going to be able to focus their entire damage output on a single assault shoulder either unless they're in point-blank range, which tends to be a bad place to be against most assaults. Murms are even more scattery than surms. That Memewacker there could certainly do plenty of damage, but its ammo reserves are rather poor for that much MRM launcher. I would posit that if it tried to two-shot a KDK-3 shoulder? The KDK-3 in question would feed it a literal ton of autocannon ammunition in the doing and make it regret the very brief remainder of its truncated life.

Dude, don't bother. People [redacted] up there are the kind of people that the real balance overlord listens to, and these are [redacted] who screamed and cried when they died charging a Dakkabear over open ground back in 2016. At this point, the only way Lights and Mediums are going to get a buff in any capacity is if the Veto Button gets taken away from it's current holder and given to someone who isn't in the pockets of [redacted].

Edited by Armchair General, 10 September 2021 - 10:11 AM.

[Verilligo]

1453 R, on 09 September 2021 - 09:31 AM, said:

...do note that I specified "few of the ones that do are good". MRM spam mediums aren't going to be able to focus their entire damage output on a single assault shoulder either unless they're in point-blank range, which tends to be a bad place to be against most assaults. Murms are even more scattery than surms. That Memewacker there could certainly do plenty of damage, but its ammo reserves are rather poor for that much MRM launcher. I would posit that if it tried to two-shot a KDK-3 shoulder? The KDK-3 in question would feed it a literal ton of autocannon ammunition in the doing and make it regret the very brief remainder of its truncated life.

Again, I don't debate the point of your post. But the goalposts set were "two-shot a Warhawk's side torso." Not that it's a smart way to go about it or even survivable, just that you can do it. And I point that out because that's all the people who complain about mediums and lights care about because it's all that they notice. Partly because they only play assaults and badly at that, if you'll check the stats of the person you were originally responding to.

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 09 September 2021 - 07:38 AM, said:

Counterpoint, you can 2 shot most lights and in a face to face battle a medium will die 100% of the time.

If only they would stay still. For example Lights are immune to almost all weapon types: 1) Missiles - too much volley spread, too slow LRM tracking 2) Lasers - too much spread across armor 3) Ballistics - require preemptive aiming, that causes convergence problems, i.e. not all weapons actually hit, while player assumes, that all hit. Only Gauss rifles are may be effective against them with some aiming skill. SSRM + TAG, if Light doesn't have ECM. Fleas are just unstoppable after recent changes.

And what is tactic against Assaults? Just pop up from cover and hit one big chunk called ST. Especially if it's IS 'Mech, because many guys, including me, equip XLs to make them perform more like Clan ones, otherwise they would be complete garbage. Remember, that many of them have badly distributed low wide hardpoints and won't be able to hit you, if you hide behind some hill. Or just hit their back. But remember, that only noobs try to circle around, assuming, that speed would be enough to turn that lagshield on. It's better to try to stay behind or to hug Assault's legs.

Edited by MrMadguy, 09 September 2021 - 07:34 PM.

[Davegt27]

this thread sounds a lot like

hey lets de synch the engines
hey lets lets get rid of modules
hey lest change the skills
hey lets re-scale the mechs

all those things helped put MWO into a death spiral

there are a lot more important things that need to be worked on

[Zordicron]

1453 R, on 06 September 2021 - 10:58 AM, said:

So the so-called “Soup Queue” is fat. It’s really fat. It is exceptionally, annoyingly fat. Games in which both sides have 6+ assault ‘Mechs are the norm more than the exception, and games with no light ‘mechs at all, or even no medium ‘Mechs, are distressingly common. Everybody’s discussed (or worse) the reasons behind this to death, and people all claim to hate it. People want a greater variety of ‘Mech tonnage on the battlefield, more incentive to play smaller ‘Mechs. Short a total overhaul of match reward though, which we all know we aren’t gonna get...there’s little we can do to try and incentivize the play of smaller machines. Usually.

I’m going to throw out a few wild-eyed ideas for the purposes of discussion, just to see what emerges. I know the most common refrain is “give us drop decks in Quickplay!”, but I think we can do better than giving everybody Infinite Call of Duty Derplord Run-And-Die Freespawns and turn this game into a true mindless grindfest. A pilot’s single life per game having value, and the tactics required to try and preserve it, is a very important part of MWO for me and many other players, so remember top Just Say No to freespawns. That said...wubbout some of these?

1.) Bid-Down Bonus
This one’s super simple. For every five tons your ‘Mech is below 100, you gain a 5% bonus to your match rewards for the game. Piloting a Timber Wolf? You get a 25% Bid-Down Bonus, in addition to whatever your other bonuses are. Piloting a Flea because you hate your teammates, yourself, MWO, and the world in general and feel like throwing? You get an 80% bid-down bonus on whatever you earn whilst throwing. The less tonnage you bring to the game, the higher this single flat modifier is to your earnings. The more you Bid Down™, the better your eventual reward.

Benefits: Easy. Simple. Everybody can understand it. Everybody can predict it. Can likely be coded into the game in an afternoon. Provides a concrete reason to play the smallest ‘Mech you can go on tears with, and will steer people away from Turbo Fatness unless they’re willing to leave money on the table by being fat or very confident they won’t need the bonus to get their rewards.
Drawbacks: Piranha’s very carefully calculated their payouts to be pinchy and annoying, to encourage MC purchases to ease the pain. Adding a potentially enormous flat bonus to match payouts throws all their reward curve calculations out the window. If they did a Bid-Down Bonus it would likely include a tone-down of existing rewards, such that assault ‘Mechs end up effectively nerfed in their rewards. We all know where that would lead. Plus, many players are already drowning in Scrooge McDuck-level C-bills and would give zero schnitzels about reward adjustments whilst piloting their Infinite Fatnesses.

2.) Total Drop Tonnage Limit
Impose an upper limit on the amount of tonnage a side can have in a Quickplay drop. No idiotic 3x3x3x3 nonsense, just a single flat number the matchmaker’s not allowed to exceed. I repeat: not allowed to exceed. No release valves for the tonnage limit. Until the system can assemble a game within that limit on both sides, nobody gets to play. People who insist on driving Gojira and nothing but Gojira every single game can still do so, but their queue times will be higher and they will have a lot less fatness around them to absorb enemy fire. The actual tonnage number itself is almost irrelevant, and something Piranha would have to tweak. Supposedly the average tonnage of a MWO drop is 65 tons, so 800 tons would give everybody 65 tons to work with and 20 ‘floating’ tons. Bring something bigger than 65 tons and you’re guaranteeing the rest of your game will be lighter for it.

Benefits: Least intrusive method. Everybody can still play what they want to play, this is simply a fixed variable than has to be accounted for prior to matchmaking. After the match is make’d, it ceases to matter and everybody does what they’ve always done.
Drawbacks: Literally anything that makes the matchmaker more stringent and takes more time will provoke infinite fiery nerdrage. This method would also generally be considered ‘punitive’ by assault driver mains, who hate the thought of being told their natural preference for extreme fatness is bad. It’s not – it’s just that we can’t let everybody have “a natural preference for extreme fatness”.

3.) Detection Profiles
Given technical limitations this one’s just as unlikely as drop decks, sadly, but I think it’s one of the better ones. Put simply: fatter ‘Mechs are easier to spot. The more your ‘Mech weighs, the further away enemies can detect it. A hundred-ton mountain of Turbo Fatness can be detected and R-key’d over a thousand meters away, whilst that Flea somebody’s busy throwing with might only appear on sensors at 600 meters. Or less! Get wild! Sensor range boosters boost range as they do, but other percentage-based increases or reductions to sensor range work as a function of tonnage. Pilot the fattest ‘Mechs you can at every conceivable turn, and everybody will know where you are before you find a single enemy target.

Benefits: Has sad, feeble echoes of “Information Warfare”, in that lighter units are better at both detecting and not being detected. Lots of potential levers to pull for quirks and IW-esque stuff.
Drawbacks: Very possibly a total nothingburger – assault ‘Mechs never bother locating or acquiring their own targets anyways. If both teams are still nothing but fatness stacked on fatness, this turns into a wash. Also technically demanding for Piranha to implement, which means essentially impossible to do.

Anyone else have any other potential ideas? Anything worth discussing, refinements to existing ideas? We have a Cauldron, folks – it’s not impossible to push through player-generated ideas if we can polish them up enough.

The bid down thing is a nice concept. Not sure how it pans out in reality but it sounds good to me, but then I have "played beta" level of goodies in my mechbays so I am more interested in the results to gameplay then the results to rewards, so I am biased. C-bills? XP? Who doesn't want infinite C-bills, I mean engines still cost stupid money. XP? I had every variant of every chassis mastered before the skill trees. I think I have like 9000 generic, "historic" XP left. Suffice to say, any tweaks on rewards is going to benefit and hurt players in different ways at this point.

I see comments about 3+3+3+3. Yes, that works, because it has to. But then also, there aren;t enough people left on top of rewards favoring fatness. So, as usual, the answer is 2+2+2+2.

People keep raging against the 8 player teams. But it is simple math, less people required= less time to wait. Even in this situation, you would need two medium mechs to show up instead of 3. That means wait time is cut by a third(simplified of course) which is significant. This pans out not just to tonnage things, but tier lists, whatever. LESS IS MORE.

[Verilligo]

Ignoring my earlier slight derail of the discussion, I would like to ask a more fundamental question: why should we be trying to lighten up the tonnage being swung around in QP? The OP states the reason is that "people all claim to hate it," but is that really the case? What, specifically, is bad about heavy queues? And would incentivizing playing lighter mechs actually encourage people to play those mechs? I'm not personally convinced of that.

Maybe it would be better to, rather than specifically reward lighter mechs, create better objectives for each game mode. And no, I don't mean garbage where light mechs need to be doing scouting or junk like that, objectives need to be ones where active fighting happens. Or even sub-objectives that are transitory and require quick action in order to exploit, but are greatly rewarding. No one collects batteries on Incursion because, other than maybe a radar sweep near the start of the map, the benefits of returning a battery are absolute garbage and you're completely out of the fight for a huge chunk of time. Sure, it gives you more that you CAN do in a fight, but no one wants to and it isn't even worth it. Make it worth it and achievable without completely removing you from performing other jobs and suddenly it's a viable decision you can make.

Admittedly, the chances of doing that are kind of slim because changing game modes and objectives is not an easy thing to just up and do. But I think it has a better chance of achieving your aim without essentially penalizing anyone else for their own preferences.

[Monkey Lover]

Davegt27, on 09 September 2021 - 07:56 PM, said:

there are a lot more important things that need to be worked on

Like real faction play, melee, tanks and quads? they dont have time for this playstation mw5 coming out and it needs dlcs

[PocketYoda]

Sounds good as mostly an Assault player i'm all for it.. Yes wait times are longer but its better than the mess we have now.. I'll play mediums if there is a reason too.

[pbiggz]

Verilligo, on 11 September 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Ignoring my earlier slight derail of the discussion, I would like to ask a more fundamental question: why should we be trying to lighten up the tonnage being swung around in QP? The OP states the reason is that "people all claim to hate it," but is that really the case? What, specifically, is bad about heavy queues? And would incentivizing playing lighter mechs actually encourage people to play those mechs? I'm not personally convinced of that.

Maybe it would be better to, rather than specifically reward lighter mechs, create better objectives for each game mode. And no, I don't mean garbage where light mechs need to be doing scouting or junk like that, objectives need to be ones where active fighting happens. Or even sub-objectives that are transitory and require quick action in order to exploit, but are greatly rewarding. No one collects batteries on Incursion because, other than maybe a radar sweep near the start of the map, the benefits of returning a battery are absolute garbage and you're completely out of the fight for a huge chunk of time. Sure, it gives you more that you CAN do in a fight, but no one wants to and it isn't even worth it. Make it worth it and achievable without completely removing you from performing other jobs and suddenly it's a viable decision you can make.

Admittedly, the chances of doing that are kind of slim because changing game modes and objectives is not an easy thing to just up and do. But I think it has a better chance of achieving your aim without essentially penalizing anyone else for their own preferences.

Objectives should be a PGI priority.

Our game modes are little better than beta game modes. Assault is virtually unchanged. Skirmish and conquest are unchanged. Domination is barely more sophisticated. Escort, the only game mode that encouraged players to move around the map in a dynamic way, clunky as it was, is not in rotation, and incursion was clearly built with respawns in mind, but just ends up being skirmish with extra steps like the rest.

I've made it clear that I think dropdecks would help, and im not making this thread about that, I know people are still ambivalent about it. Even so, there are a ton of changes, drop decks or otherwise, that would provide only limited benefits as long as killing the enemy team is an alternative win con in every game mode.

If you drop into assault, the win condition should be capturing the enemy base, right now if you do that its frowned upon, which means that entire game mode is a complete failure. If you drop conquest, terrain control should be your only priority. Control points only seem to matter when the match is down to 2 light mechs who were too timid to contribute to the match, and the rest of the teams are taking a dirt nap. If you drop domination, holding the control point should be the only win con, but even then, domination is kind of an iffy game mode to me, it plays too much like skirmish to be worth the trouble.

Edited by pbiggz, 13 September 2021 - 06:16 AM.

[1453 R]

I actually kinda like the idea of flash objectives, things that pop up briefly and need to be taken advantage of quickly. God only knows what those may be, but literally anything that breaks up the stultifying monotony of watching twelve hundred tons of metal clump in the middle of the map and grind at each other.

Sticking with the (th/m)eme of "minimum possible PGI effort", perhaps the game periodically sprinkles consumables around the map. You get a Leopard swooping by and dropping supplies for the ground troops. Whoever gets to it gets it. Would serve to reward speedy folks who go out and find these freebies, as well as discouraging the ridiculous merderball humper-clumper gameplay everybody hates because there's so much more arty on the field.