102 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

RickySpanish, on 10 October 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

Nah not due to player skill. I think by now we should know this. What makes MWO so unique that it somehow attracts worse players than other games? Nothing really, less players sure, but not worse.

Nascar is an objective issue and a communication issue, not a player skill issue, and surprisingly enough it doesn't just happen in MWO. For example large scale battles in Guild Wars 2 world vs world mode not involving an objective almost always turn into a Nascar situation - two zergs rotate around each other stripping stragglers of "stability" (CC immunity) until those falling behind drop out of range of group buffs. Then they are singled out and killed.
.

It is a skill issue. The super casual T3-T5s don't hard rotate really at all, and they are the lowest of skill.

It's only really starts when you get to T1-T3 matches where people think "I'm in Tier 1, that means I'm good", some of those are even replying to this thread! Unfortunately that just isn't the case, being a QP farmer isn't hard. The skill disparity alone in Tier 1 between the good, the better and best is truly massive.

When you are in the T1-T3 games the skill floor there just isn't high enough. Most of the solid T1 players left the game back in 2017 and with it a lot of the brutal punishment that would occur when people got ahead of themselves. I remember those days very clearly, I played many games with all those guys.

These days it just takes two actually skilled players to pretty much dominate a T1-T3 match, that's it. Even against 4-mans that (in their mind) think they are good. What do these 4mans do? They rotate and they lose.

I see it game after game. It's why when I'm in a group winning is effortless because of the lemming behaviour that many players exhibit. They don't scout, they can't adapt, they don't think - they just rotate every game by default.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 October 2021 - 04:46 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Capt Deadpool, on 10 October 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

At the Tier 1 level (except during weekends) I have seen markedly less Nascar with design of new canyon, polar, hpg, and caustic, combined with weapon/mech changes that have shifted the meta. These factors have even affected pug player behaviors on the old maps. Don't get me wrong, there is still plentyyy of Nascar, but you can try grinding to tier one if you want less of it (either by working on skill mechanics, playing more effective builds, or gaming the matchscore system. I don't recommend the last option as you will end up having less fun when you make it to tier 1. Also don't play on weekends lol.)

Yep... Weekends give aneurysms, big time.

I've funny enough made a point to play half during the week, half during the weekend for the last months and a bit.
Weekday games there is far less nonsense going on generally.

That and then the EU server off

[knight-of-ni]

Came back to the game after a really long break and some things never change I guess.

Seems every domination match on the redesigned Canyon map was a Nascar race this past Saturday.

[D A T A]

when i have a 4men of fast meds/lights (4firestarters equipped with 3lppc 5small, or 4 awolf P 6mpl) i intentionally nascar because its the best thing to do with those mechs.
Nascar is the direct consequence of the extreme power sub 50 tonners have.
If you like meds and lights to be as valuable as assaults, then accept nascar, because nascar started to exist the day in which pgi started pushing the idea that a med or a light has to be as valuable as an assault, despite costing 10 times less.
not here to discuss if it was a good or a bad idea, just pointing out the cause of the nascar, since when we had 12 stalkers 6ppc alpha vs 12 highlanders 3erppc gauss alpha back in 2013 and lights got one shot, there was no nascar.

its a fact that while many assaults have proper agility, like banshee 3e 3lppc+4ac2, or hgn iic A 4erppc, many others are still unable to move, turn nor defend themselves: lights and meds see them as "free buffet" and naturally try to nascar to go farm them....because some assaults (not all) still don't have any agility.

now you may ike it or not, but i think that nascar exists because of this

Edited by D A T A, 11 October 2021 - 02:44 PM.

[1453 R]

D A T A, how are you such a crazy high-ranked sort with direct Cauldron access when your every post reads like a T3 bubblehead just discovering forum arguments for the first time?

Nascar doesn't happen because "Light 'Mechs OP". Nascar happens, at its core, because people want to shoot but not get shot at. They'll abandon a position that's taking fire, even if that position is superior and they're dishing out more fire than they're taking, because getting shot is bad and they don't want to die and be out of the game. The average Puglandian brain intuitively knows that attacking with greater numbers is better, as is attacking from an uncovered angle. They start rotating because they're looking for isolated targets they can bully and trying to avoid being where the enemy's guns are pointing, but they're not cognizant enough to truly grok that when they start rotating they're making themselves into the very targets they're hoping to find - isolated easy focus kills.

It takes discipline and game knowledge most highly casual players that've never been on this forum a day in their life have to know when whatever fire you're taking is insignificant enough to warrant holding a stronger position, or when your angles are disappearing and it's time to move properly without overextending and turning yourself into a s k e e t ("sk.eet" is a regular friggin' plain English word, outrageously overstrict MWO cuss filters. You don't get to deny it to me.) target. Even players with good mechanical execution and good knowledge of map geometry fall prey to it. Hell, in many cases the best play isn't to try and stubbornly hold a strong point by yourself but to follow the herd and support the Nascar as best you can. Not everybody is A S H, with the level of execution needed to solo half a dozen guys, and down in the mosh pit you're as likely to run into two or three folks at once as singletons.

Even if the team is abandoning strong ground in favor of weaker ground, most average players are better off trying to stick with the zerg and putting their numbers to work - and experience has taught them this. Most of the time when someone stubbornly tries to insist on avoiding the Nascar and holding ground, it ends up splitting the team and getting the ground-holders murdered as the enemy glomps over them like a slow flood. That reinforces the idea that "Nascar is what wins", because any time they try and not-Nascar they get run over. And why keep doing things that get them run over, eh?

Nascar happens because it is the tactic that produces the best results when coordination and knowledge is at an absolute minimum. Any other tactics that produce better results than Nascar require a degree of coordination and game knowledge above "none", and "None" is the default level of coordination in a QP match. Any time you can make something else work, it's a gift. Treasure it, savor it, lock it up in your memory vault as proof that miracles do happen, and then move into the next game with your engine revving because the Nascar will be back. Until every player in this game is an actively trained ultracomp with forty hours of drop practice per week? It will always be back.

Edited by 1453 R, 11 October 2021 - 07:01 AM.

[KaptinOrk]

justcallme A S H, on 10 October 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

You will often see those who NASCAR the hardest will be sub 250 damage. They spend far more time running than they do shooting.

Case in point from one of my games last night. All of the players you see sub 200dmg - quite literally rotated 1 by 1 into enemies and were deleted -OR- spent most of the game blindly rotating rather than shooting.

pattonesque, on 10 October 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

There are many reasons for NASCAR but chief among them is a general unwillingness of the average MWO player to actually engage the enemy. Most folks in this game maneuver in order to delay the time where they are forced to fire at the enemy and potentially take damage for as long as possible.

I see this all the time in T4. A third of the team will just sit around behind cover, scared to death that they'll take fire and get their paint scratched. This is made worse because it's almost always the heavier 'mechs that are the most scared to engage, robbing the team of all their weapons and armor.

Just f****** shoot the enemy!

[martian]

pattonesque, on 10 October 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

There are many reasons for NASCAR but chief among them is a general unwillingness of the average MWO player to actually engage the enemy. Most folks in this game maneuver in order to delay the time where they are forced to fire at the enemy and potentially take damage for as long as possible.

I would give your post ten "likes", if I could.

[Rkshz]

justcallme A S H, on 11 October 2021 - 04:35 AM, said:

Well look who we have. NASCAR man.
...
Laughable as always.

admit it, you are afraid of me
that is why you are NOT quoting my comments (you write your answer WITHOUT a quote), because then I will receive a notification, and then we will start playing your favorite game of arguments for the elites, in which you, as always, have nothing to say

justcallme A S H, on 11 October 2021 - 04:35 AM, said:

I wonder - what is your default go-to move every match, even when your group has long range and can hold ground? NASCAR as fast as you can despite the fact you didn't need to one iota.

nascar is my favorite playstyle, and I don't care who or what thinks about it coz game allows nascar
the balance is terrible, the MM formula is terrible, the team distribution of players and mechs is terrible - the maps for the most part are also terrible, because this complex of problems that gives rise to nascar, and nascar rise to stomps - this is a fact
tell me if you disagree with me, I'm waiting for it

justcallme A S H, on 11 October 2021 - 04:35 AM, said:

Funny that when I'm playing,m (group or solo) there is very little NASCAR. I guess that's the power of understanding. But yeah, it's definitely not a player issue or anything like that. Definitely gotta blame everything else. You comment on the Match Maker and that isn't even how it works... The sticky thread in this very section explains this.

the power of understanding?
you do not affect the game, you do not create dynamics, your playstyle is to wait for the enemy - passive playstyle, sо tell me how does jellyfish understand the ocean?

Edited by Rkshz, 11 October 2021 - 07:39 AM.

[bilagaana]

Repositioning is not NASCAR. Flanking is not NASCAR. Pursuit is not NASCAR. Assaulting an objective as a group is not NASCAR.

Still looking for that video somebody posted last year of a farcical match on old Polar Highlands with both teams madly rotating around the beacon. THAT was NASCAR.

[martian]

bilagaana, on 11 October 2021 - 08:44 AM, said:

Repositioning is not NASCAR. Flanking is not NASCAR. Pursuit is not NASCAR. Assaulting an objective as a group is not NASCAR.

Still looking for that video somebody posted last year of a farcical match on old Polar Highlands with both teams madly rotating around the beacon. THAT was NASCAR.

I remember one game on Polar Highlands we rotated around a small boulder that was a big as a small car.

[CFC Conky]

I would like it if more players realize there are more throttle settings than just 0% or 100%.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[RickySpanish]

justcallme A S H, on 11 October 2021 - 04:44 AM, said:

It is a skill issue. The super casual T3-T5s don't hard rotate really at all, and they are the lowest of skill.

It's only really starts when you get to T1-T3 matches where people think "I'm in Tier 1, that means I'm good", some of those are even replying to this thread! Unfortunately that just isn't the case, being a QP farmer isn't hard. The skill disparity alone in Tier 1 between the good, the better and best is truly massive.

When you are in the T1-T3 games the skill floor there just isn't high enough. Most of the solid T1 players left the game back in 2017 and with it a lot of the brutal punishment that would occur when people got ahead of themselves. I remember those days very clearly, I played many games with all those guys.

These days it just takes two actually skilled players to pretty much dominate a T1-T3 match, that's it. Even against 4-mans that (in their mind) think they are good. What do these 4mans do? They rotate and they lose.

I see it game after game. It's why when I'm in a group winning is effortless because of the lemming behaviour that many players exhibit. They don't scout, they can't adapt, they don't think - they just rotate every game by default.

Yeah I see where you are coming from, especially the lemming-like behaviour. I think it isn't prevalent at lower / newer skill brackets because the emergent behaviour of Nascar can't develop with more cautious and less aggressive players. But I don't think Nascar is due to a skill issue - as I said, this sort of behaviour is not unique to MWO. I have seen it manifest in other games too. The factors that greatly influence its appearance are a lack of guidance, coordination and tactical information. That is in my opinion, an issue of game mechanics. The desire to flank and simultaneously not suffer an enemy flanking attempt is what drives Nascar, and it's up to the game to offer players better tools and/or incentives to avoid it.

1453 R, on 11 October 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

D A T A, how are you such a crazy high-ranked sort with direct Cauldron access when your every post reads like a T3 bubblehead just discovering forum arguments for the first time?

Nascar doesn't happen because "Light 'Mechs OP". Nascar happens, at its core, because people want to shoot but not get shot at. They'll abandon a position that's taking fire, even if that position is superior and they're dishing out more fire than they're taking, because getting shot is bad and they don't want to die and be out of the game. The average Puglandian brain intuitively knows that attacking with greater numbers is better, as is attacking from an uncovered angle. They start rotating because they're looking for isolated targets they can bully and trying to avoid being where the enemy's guns are pointing, but they're not cognizant enough to truly grok that when they start rotating they're making themselves into the very targets they're hoping to find - isolated easy focus kills.

It takes discipline and game knowledge most highly casual players that've never been on this forum a day in their life have to know when whatever fire you're taking is insignificant enough to warrant holding a stronger position, or when your angles are disappearing and it's time to move properly without overextending and turning yourself into a s k e e t ("sk.eet" is a regular friggin' plain English word, outrageously overstrict MWO cuss filters. You don't get to deny it to me.) target. Even players with good mechanical execution and good knowledge of map geometry fall prey to it. Hell, in many cases the best play isn't to try and stubbornly hold a strong point by yourself but to follow the herd and support the Nascar as best you can. Not everybody is A S H, with the level of execution needed to solo half a dozen guys, and down in the mosh pit you're as likely to run into two or three folks at once as singletons.

Even if the team is abandoning strong ground in favor of weaker ground, most average players are better off trying to stick with the zerg and putting their numbers to work - and experience has taught them this. Most of the time when someone stubbornly tries to insist on avoiding the Nascar and holding ground, it ends up splitting the team and getting the ground-holders murdered as the enemy glomps over them like a slow flood. That reinforces the idea that "Nascar is what wins", because any time they try and not-Nascar they get run over. And why keep doing things that get them run over, eh?

Nascar happens because it is the tactic that produces the best results when coordination and knowledge is at an absolute minimum. Any other tactics that produce better results than Nascar require a degree of coordination and game knowledge above "none", and "None" is the default level of coordination in a QP match. Any time you can make something else work, it's a gift. Treasure it, savor it, lock it up in your memory vault as proof that miracles do happen, and then move into the next game with your engine revving because the Nascar will be back. Until every player in this game is an actively trained ultracomp with forty hours of drop practice per week? It will always be back.

English is probably not his first language, even so what he says makes perfect sense. It's just written succinctly and without writing a novel to illustrate a concept.

[Duke Falcon]

And that is a reason why I stick to T5 so badly! I rarely met NASCAR in T5 but usually scatter-and-head-toward-core mentality resulting a quick stomp. I mostly see lights rotating in matches (in QP, in FP some maps force to rotate around like sieges where not much possible ways exists). I am not a good player, I could be excellent but more often mediocre or even worse, so my opinion is not a "stone carved testimony".
The last time I saw NASCAR were a QP match on Vitric (what is the QP version of Grim Portico?) where both teams run around the hilltop base in the center. Were funny to stay on that top ans LRM-ing the NASCAR with my Mad dog. Only two pilots forfeit the rotate-run to came to me (I could kill both but the Madcat MK2 were a mere luck on the verge of collapse) while the rest still run around and got lurmed idle.
Yes, remarkable, funny but rare. In T5 at least I rarely see NASCAR but when it happens it, well, really happens (awkward and funny way I mean).
Also, left slower mechs behind. That occurs, it happens a lot. But if the slower mechs (assaults) have some sanity they form up and walk en-group to fend of wolf-packs more efficiently. That is what I usually do if play in a slower assault! Stick to the other slow giants instead of slithering around alone. These are my experience, of course others may also be right depends on their OWN experiences. And I usually play on European (better, since this is my continent) or NA servers. Not played on Oceanic ever so I could not tell how frequent NASCAR on that.
Again, this is my opinion and I may lucky with it. Or not...

[Splitcart]

I dunno... I for one have a sudden and inexplicable fondness for nascar...

LET’S GO BRANDON!

[Capt Deadpool]

D A T A, on 11 October 2021 - 06:05 AM, said:

pgi started pushing the idea that a med or a light has to be as valuable as an assault, despite costing 10 times less.

If this is the crux of your quibble as to why we should not have four balanced archetypes/playstyles where the average pilot is capable of doing similar damage and affecting game outcomes in a light as they can in a heavy or assault, then that is an easy fix by increasing parity between the pricing of different classes.

I don't really think adjusting class prices is necessary though, as even if lights were granted enough survivability to do similar damage as the other classes via rescale/armor, it would require significantly more work for the player to achieve with a light's miniscule ranges and alphas. Additionally, there is the psychological appeal for many players of stomping around in the biggest, most armored, most weapon-y class, and they will likely continue to pay a premium for the experience....

But I digress, this thread is about Nascar, and as 1453 R stated, that is how the average player--using the least amount of brain power and absent anyone making the effort to coordinate the team to hold tactically strong positions on the map--defaults to attempting to do damage while mitigating the damage that they themselves take. Nascar tendancies can be reduced (which further reduces the effectiveness of lights, BTW, which you correctly pointed out), by what is presently occurring for the first time in years: map redesign and meta shift via changes to mechs and weapons.

Nascar is indeed fascinating from a biological anthropology perspective; what makes groups of H.Sapiens turn right instead of left anyway? Do they do it in other games too? Likely a result of both cultural and genetic bias, as natural selection has determined that we should be a predominantly right-handed species in a right-handed world... Like watching the behavior of schooling fish species XD

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 11 October 2021 - 01:04 PM.

[knight-of-ni]

If both teams are composed entirely of members from the southern hemisphere, does the nascar go clockwise, instead of counterclockwise? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

EDIT: Got my directions mixed.

Edited by knight-of-ni, 11 October 2021 - 01:11 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

^

[LordNothing]

no

[JediPanther]

You'd nascar too if a single alpha could wipe out your mech. Really love to see some of the 100t slugs try and get those triple digit damage numbers in a light. Good luck even breaking 300 with an is light's anemic alpha.

Nice to see the Oxide still get more buffs. Eventually it will be as strong as an urbie with its 36 srm alpha.

[Moldur]

I default to nascar but I at least look at my team composition. If half are medium/lights that are spreading our team across the map while our assaults are full speed, unable to catch-up, then the medium/lights decide to fully engage and die.. It's their fault. They love to scream at assaults for being slow and talk about how they did more damage as if they're not the ones that fed their assaults to the enemy.