LocationFrom a distance in an Urbie with a HAG, delivering righteous fury to heretics.
Posted 17 October 2021 - 06:36 PM
C337Skymaster, on 17 October 2021 - 06:22 PM, said:
So I popped back in to point out that if we solve the pinpoint problem, we can also get rid of Ghost Heat
It's not a matter of whether it's going to work or not, but as the game as it is right now, your playstyle is pointless and is unhelpful to your teammates. Simply saying "if we did X" isn't helpful because we are not, for the moment, going to do X. The game is working well without X, and all that is happening with you insisting to do your thing without X is making you not enjoy the game, and be a liability to your team.
Yeah, well, reading Pinpoint is no RNG and RNG is bad in a FPS etc.
First - thx for acknowledging that this game is a FPS bcs a FPS is exactly the game i do not want to play in a Battletech franchise!
Second - Missiles, Rockets, and LBX ACs seem then to be bad weapons bcs they randomly apply a pattern of damage on the target and how do you want to fix that in your FPS Style no randomness game?
Third - how do you consider U/ACs that have a random jam chance? How do you take the non random FPS into that?
Fourth - what about AMS? I gues it has a variance and does not allways shot the same amount of missiles down.
Fifth - Ammo explosions - have a low chance to happen but happen randomly - do you take that out?
Sixth - Crits happen randomly - what about them?
Imo the non randomness of Pinpointweapons is rather an exception in this game than the rule...and is applied the most to the most easy to use hitscan point > click > hold weapons of the game.
How is that in any way, shape and form a healthy balance?
PS: And i have not even mentioned Splash damage which i another random factor on some Weapons that is either limited by appliances or radius and may or may not hit something vital.
And i do not mention that "some" Weapons cant to Head damage bcs that is not random...
The effects of changes remain to be seem. I personally feel like there's been an unhealthy amount of sniper shenanigans going on recently. Especially on the new Caustic Valley aka Sniper Valley where ppc/er laser/gauss snipers are dominating many matches. It's not like the new HPG which provides decent cover in the central area of the map at least. For that reason the number of PPC HSL ++ quirks in this update concerns me a little bit.
Speaking of mech quirk, I think MCII-2 needs quite a few. As one of the mediocore mechs overshadowed by outstanding peers, its most played 2AC/LB20 + 4SRM6A build is basically a pre-patched MAD-IIC-SC with worse hitbox and maneuverability. It was better years ago but the bunny ears, tougher IS/Clan competitors and sniping meta had killed it. Limited hardpoint(2B 2E 4M) choice makes it unable to compete with other MCIIs or even a lot of heavy mechs without using missile hp. Even the MCII-4 is generally a more versatile lrm/atm boat out there with bonus energy option.
In other words, this mech is:
Outclassed or easily substituted by other MCIIs and heavies in dedicated med to long range direct fire engagements.
Inferior to MCII-4 and other dedicated lurm/atm boats in long range indirect fire engagements.
Outclassed by dedicated close range brawler at short range.
I understand there are far worse mechs like CGR-1A1 with distarous hitbox and they are surely the priority of quirk pass but I do hope this cat can get some love from the Cauldron rebalance team in future.
Yeah, well, reading Pinpoint is no RNG and RNG is bad in a FPS etc.
First - thx for acknowledging that this game is a FPS bcs a FPS is exactly the game i do not want to play in a Battletech franchise!
Second - Missiles, Rockets, and LBX ACs seem then to be bad weapons bcs they randomly apply a pattern of damage on the target and how do you want to fix that in your FPS Style no randomness game?
Third - how do you consider U/ACs that have a random jam chance? How do you take the non random FPS into that?
Fourth - what about AMS? I gues it has a variance and does not allways shot the same amount of missiles down.
Fifth - Ammo explosions - have a low chance to happen but happen randomly - do you take that out?
Sixth - Crits happen randomly - what about them?
Imo the non randomness of Pinpointweapons is rather an exception in this game than the rule...and is applied the most to the most easy to use hitscan point > click > hold weapons of the game.
How is that in any way, shape and form a healthy balance?
PS: And i have not even mentioned Splash damage which i another random factor on some Weapons that is either limited by appliances or radius and may or may not hit something vital.
And i do not mention that "some" Weapons cant to Head damage bcs that is not random...
First: The game you want to play does not have a large enough fan base otherwise one would have been made in the past 25 years. Mechwarrior has always been an FPS game, and that's how it is played. At least with regards to how firing weapons work. The aspects that are unique in MW which are coming from BT, are weight classes, tonnage and construction rules, mechs, weapon specifications, various tactics, etc.
Second: Missiles, rockets, LBX, etc. all fire multiple pellets in a defined cylinder (missiles) or cone (LBX). And because of that they are given attributes to compensate such a flaw, like auto-aim missile guidance, lower heat, faster rate of fire, high damage, high crit chance, etc. Single beam or single projectile weapons just become useless if you apply the same spread mechanics to it. This is not your run of the mill shooter game, firing weapons costs heat, you can't steal the shot randomly when the cost in heat is already paid.
Third: UAC random jam is a frustrating mechanic. Your main gun just randomly turning off is not something you want when starting an engagement. This is just how MWO is programmed from the beginning and this randomness is tolerated. Some suggestions have been around with regards to cooldown, implementing jam bar. But those need re-coding, which is not going to happen.
Fourth: AMS is something you don't control, when it is active, it intercepts and shoots down a certain amount of missiles, and it is consistent in how many missiles it destroys with a +/- 1 tolerance.
Fifth: Ammo explosion is another frustration mechanic in a PvP game... random death!... there is a reason no other shooter game has that. in TT losing a unit to a random dice throw is not as detrimental to your game experience since your game does not end. You can get lucky and get some good dice rolls afterwards. In a PvP shooter, random death means game over... gg,... goodbye! In April CASE was made 0 tons in order to give IS mechs a less taxing way of preventing random death. Another way would have been an option given to the player to jettison the ammo bins that are cooking for a chance to control the fatal event. But that needs programming.
Sixth: Crits also are not pleasant, losing your weapons in a PvP shooter to a random dice roll is not something the majority of people want.
All hitscan weapons in the game right now require full face time for more than a second, enough to receive pinpoint frontloaded damage that can't be spread across the mech. Moreover, most of the time, you can spread damage from laser burns using torso twisting. Problem is that a large number of players for some reason stare down a laser burn like a deer in the middle of the road staring at a truck's headlights.
No weapon in the game currently has splash damage... Strikes do, which were very cancerous pre-April as they had the potential to kill a fresh heavy mech completely due to chance... see above on why random death is bad.
Well Navid A1, first thx for your comprehensive explanation - kudos!
First - i guess the numbers of players playing games like Battletech and Mechwarrior 5 speaks volume about what kind of game is more apreciated.
All other - you agree there is a quite huge amount of randomness in the game so do i.
How it is apreciated is up to the likes of each individual player but arguing this is a FPS thus randomness is not to be applied is not supported by most of the games system.
Last - yeah, holding a hitscan weapon on most Mechs is holding a laserpointer on a Truck from 20yrds distance with the mythical twisting counteracted by a Mechs geometry that very often enables a player to target hitboxes via stuck out geometry that would be otherwise shielded - like hitting a Mech Torso between the Legs, hitting a Missile Pod, hitting an stuck out Head, like hitting a Centurion on his impressive Helmet geometry which counts as CT Hit.
On fast moving Mechs this may be more difficult albeit my opinion is this is not bcs of twisting but bcs of messing up the hitboxed by speed plus speed armor.
Now, there are many Laserweapons with less than a second holding time and some...nah, imho you can accelerate every Laser to not more than a second holding time.
It IS the most easy to use weapons in the whole game imho!
Regarding splash damage i am still under the impression that Missiles have it not removed but minimized bcs the Cryengine could not handle removed splash damage though i may have missed notice about a change of that.
And i am under the impression that these Clan PPC had their Splash damage that is randomly applied to neighbring locations not removed but adjusted so if i was under a wrong impression pls excuse moi for that.
Agian i am impressed in your effort to answer my post and hope you understand my kudos to you as the sincere gratitude it is meant encouraging you in your further engagement with the community regardless.
LocationFrom a distance in an Urbie with a HAG, delivering righteous fury to heretics.
Posted 18 October 2021 - 01:22 AM
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Second - Missiles, Rockets, and LBX ACs seem then to be bad weapons bcs they randomly apply a pattern of damage on the target and how do you want to fix that in your FPS Style no randomness game?
Do you know why LBXs are more effective up close? It's because they are more focused, the distance counter acting the spread. Not only that, something like the SRMs does a lot of damage to compensate too.
Now the randomness of the spread, well, given enough density, which what we usually do by tacking on several at the time, it's usually counter acted as well.
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Third - how do you consider U/ACs that have a random jam chance? How do you take the non random FPS into that?
Simple. Make it 0% jam chance, increase heat generation and base cooldown as result. Treat it as AC4/10/20/40s, or alternatively reduce damage by 15%.
Boom, no need for RNG.
Spoiler
Navid A1, on 18 March 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:
Currently UACs are the definition of a feast or famine system. If you don't jam, you're technically firing two normal ACs with the price of one with no drawbacks, effectivly doubling your mech's already high DPS and fire power. However, if you do jam, you're going to be a sitting duck going to the chopping block. In this game where controlling angles, and winning trades are key, tying your ability to shoot to a random number generator is counter intuitive and backwards (RNG is bad... F* RNG)
As a solution, I was thinking about getting rid of jam system completely (%0 jam chance) and at the same time balance their damage output using weapon cooldown and heat per damage. ***You will be able to double tap without jam... but the weapon will take longer to cooldown for the next shot.***
As an intial starting point, the following values can be considered for a test run in a second PTS iteration:
The above changes will make UACs to consistently have 30% higher DPS than their standard counterparts while generating 40% more heat per point of damage.
This preserves the burst nature of UACs, while making them reliable and keeps them in check with heat and cooldown.
Meanwhile the standard ACs will benefit from higher velocity, less shells fired, faster cooldown and much lower heat. Opening them up to being good combos with PPC family, and/or high dps almost heat neutral options.
Here is a video showcase of the proposed system in action:
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Fourth - what about AMS? I gues it has a variance and does not allways shot the same amount of missiles down.
Not sure. I honestly don't notice any randomness. It's more like impreciseness of factors like sometimes depending on placement, missile vollies have longer time to be exposed to AMS fire than other times.
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Fifth - Ammo explosions - have a low chance to happen but happen randomly - do you take that out?
My take is that reduce damage down to like 5 to 20, with 100% chance to explode. Also remove chain-explosion.
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Sixth - Crits happen randomly - what about them?
Honestly, I don't know. Although we could possibly just damage the first one then the largest one on the stack, then goes through down to the last item, and that is the engine crit-slot. That is if the component itself held long enough.
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
Imo the non randomness of Pinpointweapons is rather an exception in this game than the rule...and is applied the most to the most easy to use hitscan point > click > hold weapons of the game.
How is that in any way, shape and form a healthy balance?
Well, they can do overwhelming damage that precision isn't a factor. It's the trade-off honestly, like LRMs or ATMS that are homing. Okay compare the 4x ATM12 + 4x MPL of a supernova, that's 28 + 120 = 148 damage.
Now compare that to say a 2x GR + 6x ERML + 2x LPL = 30 + 39 + 26 = 95. I would say that yes this 95 that you can focus to a component is surely superior. But keep in mind that it requires you to actually focus all that laser burn at a specific component + the Gauss-Charge mechanic. Compare that to the hold-lock then fire.
I'm not really the authority to speak on these. But I think it's right to say that also weapon mechanics and application is also a factor.
Thorqemada, on 17 October 2021 - 11:20 PM, said:
PS: And i have not even mentioned Splash damage which i another random factor on some Weapons that is either limited by appliances or radius and may or may not hit something vital.
And i do not mention that "some" Weapons cant to Head damage bcs that is not random...
IIRC, splash damage -- like the C-ERPPC isn't random, it's +2.5 damage each adjacent component.
Navid A1, on 18 October 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:
UAC random jam is a frustrating mechanic. Your main gun just randomly turning off is not something you want when starting an engagement. This is just how MWO is programmed from the beginning and this randomness is tolerated. Some suggestions have been around with regards to cooldown, implementing jam bar. But those need re-coding, which is not going to happen.
Not necessarily.
Remember that pitch you gave?
Shame that PTS was cancelled.
FML.
Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 October 2021 - 01:30 AM.
Yeah, some of the PTS had good ideas but these baskets of ideas were allways mixed with so poisenous apples that the whole basked would be trashed instead of selecting the good apples.
justcallme A S H, on 16 October 2021 - 04:45 PM, said:
As Cauldron has stated many, many times.
We are not balancing for Faction/Comp Play. While they might be considerations, they are not the primary focus.
True, I saw the statements.
I encourage the Cauldron to give FP balance greater consideration going forward. QP (and Solaris to the extent anyone cares) has equal access to tech from both sides so changes can be made with little risk of upsetting the game. Major choice disparity in FP can cause real balance issues. Access to a multitude of pin point weapon combinations is just one example.
This was a great read and perfect for a chilly day and a hot cup of coffee. Glad to see all the info from experienced players and knowledgeable mechwarriours. The standout announcement to me is:
JR7-K:
Added -10% missile cooldown
Added +100m Sensor range
Added +1 UAV capacity
Added +1 unlocked consumable slot (max still capped at 5)
As I read this a JR7- with 2 UAVs and 2 Strategic Strikes installed will suddenly have that 5th consumable slot available and can mount a third UAV. I use UAVs and most of my mechs have 2 UAVs and 2 Strategic Strikes installed. Jenner was not the only mech to get this quirk.
After the comments in the thread about damage and heavier mechs, I'm looking forward to scouting with more resources.
But I don't understand the ECM changes at all. Looking forward to tomorrow.
So the ECM changes are, to my understanding, a reversion. The original intention was to make ECM better without having to invest into nodes, but there was a coding issue which has made it worse.
It's already autumn. Another patch and again not a word about the separation of solo and group queues in quick play.
I love how the ECM system was broken in the most illogical way, and now the developer does not know how to fix his mistake.
I see no improvement in LRM. After all, they can flood the enemy with only 60 - 95 points of damage from a distance of up to a kilometer from a closed invisible position (sarcasm).
The survivability of many mechs has been increased again, while the streaks remain in their humiliated position. That's right, I think (sarcasm).
I really appreciate the work of François. And I sincerely wish him success. But I alone notice that all "reborn" maps are very similar in their architecture? Previously, each map had its own atmosphere. And now they all look the same.
Can the old variants of the maps be returned to rotation in the game? Why withdraw the old map simultaneously with the release of the "reborn" map? Why artificially limit the variety of maps? Why not diversify the selection of maps in a quick play by spinning old and new variants of maps?
Looking forward to trying some of these buffed mechs.. Wow a lot of arguing on here haha...
I just enjoy playing a free game and sometimes buying new mechs to show support for a truly unique combat experience and am grateful that people are working on it behind the scenes. It's never going to be a perfect gaming experience but it s@%^s all over most other games I have played.
Since these patches started rolling in late last year, there is definitely more variety on the battlefield. Makes it far more interesting. Also, even with buffs galore, most battles can be lost in the mechlab (which is a game in itself imo).
Voice of Kerensky, on 18 October 2021 - 07:34 PM, said:
It's already autumn. Another patch and again not a word about the separation of solo and group queues in quick play.
That is not on the table, it wont happen - at most some toying around with whatever numbers they can toy around - Groups are to stay in QP is the official PGI pov at this point in time.
and another patch to the wrong side, where is the balance? there is no balance just higher alphas on IS side, make OP mechs just more OP. Thanks for nothing
and another patch to the wrong side, where is the balance? there is no balance just higher alphas on IS side, make OP mechs just more OP. Thanks for nothing
And round and round we go.. saw this coming from their very first patch. First you get the weapon buffs, then you get the mech quirks, then what... you get the women?
Edited by DAEDALOS513, 19 October 2021 - 08:41 AM.
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C337Skymaster, on 17 October 2021 - 06:22 PM, said:
