333 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 01:17 PM, said:

I'm done feeding the trolls.

Maybe don't post vague comparisons that make no sense to anyone? Cause reading that actually made me confused as all hell.

[justcallme A S H]

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 09:51 AM, said:

i was asked to show up mechs that are OP i did, and if you did not tested it you can shoot out 4 MRM30 and aditional 3 ER-Medlasers even on an unskilled Fafnir WR at same time (landing at 94% heat). i did not say it is pinpoint alpha like the MAD-4l i say alphaable to what i was asked for. it is now up to you to show me any equal mechbuilds on Clanside.

You were asked to show mechs with bigger Alphas.

So of course you run straight to MRMs, who completely spread damage at anything above 250m to "prove" your example.

Meanwhile I can build a Clan heavy or Assault with a 80+ Alpha at 500m+.


Try again.

[Steve Pryde]

I think there is something wrong with armor values on sidetorsos on the Warhammer 7S variant:

[justcallme A S H]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

I feel like if the Deathstrike and Direwolf are not performing like they used to it is only because other mechs with more agility can now boat uber-powered weapons to counter and out-trade them.. so what did we do? Buffed those mechs to keep up with the other buffing that we implemented to counter previous buffs..

The Deathstrike is still one of the single best Alpha-traders in the game.

They are still performing exceptionally well as they have always been.

I'd be keen to hear of all these mechs with "Uber powered" weapons that out trade it. I'm struggling to think of any.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 October 2021 - 01:45 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 19 October 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

The Deathstrike is still one of the single best Alpha-traders in the game.

They are still performing exceptionally well as they have always been.

I'd be keen to hear of all these mechs with "Uber powered" weapons that out trade it. I'm struggling to think of any.

Ok, that's what I thought.. i was responding to someone else that claimed the death strike and dire are under-performing now..

[justcallme A S H]

The DWF can definitely be argued, It has taken buffs and has brought it up to reasonable.

There are still far better out there.

[DAEDALOS513]

Scout Derek, on 19 October 2021 - 01:31 PM, said:

Maybe don't post vague comparisons that make no sense to anyone? Cause reading that actually made me confused as all hell.

Sorry about the snarky reply then.. I'm not sure if it applies perfectly as an analogy but basically when say a particular government keeps printing (or digitally creates) money out of thin air, the value of that money starts to fall because there is more of it in circulation.. the result is merchants start to raise prices on their goods (inflation) to make up for the lower value of money.

Well, when we keep buffing weapons and mechs to make the game ever more fun, the buffs start to lose their value because we keep buffing everything in sight. This causes the buffs start to lose their value because they aren't as effective in the face of the other buffs (funflation)... so we end up being stuck in a never-ending cycle of buffing and counter buffing..

Paying off the debt instead of creating moar money would be the analogy equivalent of nerfing instead of buffing.

Did that make sense? If not, I'll accept a meme as a reply, I probably deserve it .

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 19 October 2021 - 02:21 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Steve Pryde, on 19 October 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

I think there is something wrong with armor values on sidetorsos on the Warhammer 7S variant:

Agreed, noticed this as well.

[ScrapIron Prime]

katoult, on 19 October 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

Since it's not mentioned in the patch notes...

What's the delta file for Canyon Network for in the patch zip?

At a guess… fixing all the extra water in the canyons? I should go check.

[Commoners]

Power creep is a thing, but I don't really see it in the context of these quirk adjustments. There are mechs that are acting like benchmarks like the veagle and madcat II that other chassis and their variants are being brought up to parity in whatever respective role that they have.

The madcat and veagles aren't going to be getting buffs to play catch up with other mechs, because they're already where they need to be.

A good example of power creep or power inflation was when the KDK was released, particularly the KDK3, with its original agility stats. That moved the baseline so far upward that a whole lot of chassis in that 600-700m role were rendered almost immediately obsolete.

Edited by Commoners, 19 October 2021 - 02:38 PM.

[Heavy Money]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes I realize it was all planned out early on.. some of the buffs were good but most of them are overlapping and we are ending up over-buffing already strong mechs.. I really don't want to get into it again for the umpteenth time but it was my contention from the beginning that we could have achieved the same effect of weapon diversity without mega-buffing 90% of weapons but instead, nerfing a few of the outlier (over-performing) weapons and going from there.

What already strong mechs have received buffs? You may not want to get into it again, but you're making claims that don't match up with what has actually occurred.

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Maybe putting more of a focus on applying mech-specific quirks (weapon/armor/etc) for mechs that underperform due to bad hitboxes and/or mounts... instead, we're buffing the weapons AND the mech. This not only buffs the weak mech, but ALSO the strong mechs that already had good mounts/hitboxes.. See how we're chasing our tails? We are in a never-ending cycle of buffing.

They are putting the focus on under performing mechs though?
Underperforming weapons were buffed to match the better performing weapons. I suppose that created some situations where mechs that were good were then able to run more builds. There's no reason to be bothered about that though. If they had buffed already high performing mechs, that would be an issue. But I'm not aware of that having actually happened.

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Anther change that could have helped was adding some splash damage so things aren't so pin-point punishing. Remember, we still need more players to fill the player base.. player retention is an uphill battle when you die or get seriously rekt within the first 2 minutes of a match.

Like they did for snubs? They reduced pinpoint when it was too high and gave it splash instead.
New players getting rekt fast is primarily a matter of positioning, not a specific weapon or damage type.
There has also been lots of changes to allow spread weapons to perform better compared to pinpoint.

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Still not sure why we nerfed streaks when they were rarely used and only on certain niche mechs.. don't think anyone really understood that one.

Because they were doing giant alphas that could cripple a light in one hit. Sure, they were over-nerfed and need more attention. But they were too polarized of a weapon before. All lockon weapons right now are a bit subpar because, due to the nature of lockons, they tend to be too strong or too weak and they've chosen too weak as the lesser evil. They can't be properly fixed until we have the new studio working on the code, because the real way to fix lockons of all types requires the ability to alter things like lock speed.

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

But anyway, the argument that nerfing weapons makes the game less fun doesn't make sense either because power is RELATIVE. ie. everyone has to use the same weapons so relatively speaking you're fire-power hasn't gone down.. the only difference is pilot skill becomes more important and TTK will should go up.

I actually agree with you here. I'm not convinced that buffing everything to match the highest performance weapons instead of nerfing just those was the correct way to go. But I do remember the community discussing this, and I certainly had the impression of a consensus that people didn't want any nerfs. So, maybe it was the wrong general policy. But, accepting that this policy has been chosen, the balance decisions made since then are all very internally consistent.

You are describing a phenomenon of powerful things getting more powerful and creating a power creep cycle, but I just don't think this is happening. Weaker things have been buffed, and that's about it. If you want to convince people of your main point, please provide examples of mechs/loadouts that were already very good getting significant buffs.

Edited by Heavy Money, 19 October 2021 - 02:48 PM.

[Thorqemada]

So, have seen a Dual U/AC20 Build never jamming paired with some snubnose PPC.

This game is now beyond ridiculous and can not be saved!

[pattonesque]

Thorqemada, on 19 October 2021 - 03:01 PM, said:

So, have seen a Dual U/AC20 Build never jamming paired with some snubnose PPC.

This game is now beyond ridiculous and can not be saved!

what, the newly quirked Fafnir-6U? I wanna try that bad boy out. If I get it within 200m of someone it's a nice little reward

[Heavy Money]

Thorqemada, on 19 October 2021 - 03:01 PM, said:

So, have seen a Dual U/AC20 Build never jamming paired with some snubnose PPC.

This game is now beyond ridiculous and can not be saved!

So how's it compare to existing dual heavy gauss or AC20+Snub builds?
Is this more powerful than existing options, or just another option at a similar level?

[pattonesque]

Heavy Money, on 19 October 2021 - 03:16 PM, said:

So how's it compare to existing dual heavy gauss or AC20+Snub builds?
Is this more powerful than existing options, or just another option at a similar level?

you gotta put it on a Fafnir-6U, which is an incredibly slow mech with hitboxes that vacuum every shot to the CT

It's a monstrously powerful build balanced by the fact that if you let a Fafnir get that close to you it's kinda on you, you know?

[Heavy Money]

pattonesque, on 19 October 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

you gotta put it on a Fafnir-6U, which is an incredibly slow mech with hitboxes that vacuum every shot to the CT

It's a monstrously powerful build balanced by the fact that if you let a Fafnir get that close to you it's kinda on you, you know?

Yeah, so is Dual heavy gauss + MPL. That's why its a good comparison.
I'd expect the UAC20+Snubs to have more dps up front, but less pinpoint and sustain.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

Just like the economic inflation crisis the US is suffering through right now.. we are creating a 'weapon inflation' situation or a fun-flation if you will. We keep implementing buffs on weapons and mechs to make the game more fun and when we start to see mechs are melting too easily, what do we do in our infinite wisdom.. we do the same thing we that created the problem in the first place.. add more buffs to 'fix' the problem; just like how the US is printing moar money out of thin air to fix the inflation crisis that printing money caused in the first place.. smh

And none of the mechs that were buffed today are OP.

It's crazy how that works.... buffing mechs that aren't competitive doesn't suddenly make them over powered or "power creep", it just brings them towards balance.

[Commoners]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 October 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

And none of the mechs that were buffed today are OP.

It's crazy how that works.... buffing mechs that aren't competitive doesn't suddenly make them over powered or "power creep", it just brings them towards balance.

It is technically part of the power creep problem in that it's giving an opportunity to play catch up by the many, many chassis that were left behind as more and more powerful mechs were released over time. Some of the ones playing catch up have NEVER been at a parity point of power with the rest of the game.

But it's not cyclical power creep that is feeding back into itself.

Edited by Commoners, 19 October 2021 - 03:41 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

There is no power creep.

We just went merely back to near 2017 level if you ask me, right after KDK-3 quad UAC10 nerf patch. We are not even at "crazy quirk" days yet.

That said, I realized how much I hate long-range snipes though.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 19 October 2021 - 04:55 PM.

[Thorqemada]

pattonesque, on 19 October 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:

what, the newly quirked Fafnir-6U? I wanna try that bad boy out. If I get it within 200m of someone it's a nice little reward

Fafnir, yes, relied on his team to not lose the match in the first minutes when things happened outside its range - then when the ranges melted down it became utmost devastating, it did not even use up its cool shots - heat override was good enough to have it keep up with the flow of the battle.

Brrrt-Brrrt-Zzzp...