125 replies to this topic

[Horseman]

denAirwalkerrr, on 22 October 2021 - 10:54 PM, said:

Newsflash: every single comp player feedback prior to this change was "well we'll just be stomping QP and people will whine so don't do that" while quite a lot of casuals were hyping Russ on twitter and forum thread about how good this change is gonna be for the game. Now it's pretty clear who was right.

As if it was ever in real doubt.

Temporary Axis, on 22 October 2021 - 10:16 PM, said:

Competitive players are being blamed for the decisions of the greater player base.
live with your decision

That's society these days: owning their mistakes is a cultural passe, must blame on third party and continue pretending their own **** doesn't stink.

[GoodTry]

Gagis, on 25 October 2021 - 11:10 PM, said:

Solaris might be salvageable if 2v2 was removed and 1v1 divisions combined into 3 or 4 maximum instead of 7.

Just restrict it to a single 1v1 div, and rotate it each month. Done. That way you can at least get some matches.

[pbiggz]

Horseman, on 26 October 2021 - 04:41 AM, said:

As if it was ever in real doubt.

Again, this is statistically false. Groups do not have a major impact on quick play.

Horseman, on 26 October 2021 - 04:41 AM, said:

That's society these days: owning their mistakes is a cultural passe, must blame on third party and continue pretending their own **** doesn't stink.

Odd commentary aside, the only reason this thread keeps reappearing is because a small group of players is convinced removing groups from the queue will make their personal WLR go up.

As I have said, on multiple occasions, this game as about 1000 concurrent players at best. That is a very delicate player base that is quite sensitive to shocks. Soft-banning the most active players in the game from the only real active queue in the game would definitely constitute a shock and would be absolutely suicidal for the game.

[Saved By The Bell]

Groups shouldnt be in QP, because its stomps all time. Tier 1 groups against tier 3-4 potato.

Ask your matchmaker for data not me.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 26 October 2021 - 07:23 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Saved By The Bell, on 26 October 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

Groups shouldnt be in QP, because its stomps all time. Tier 1 groups against tier 3-4 potato.

Ask your matchmaker for data not me.

-A- its not groups that is the issue there, its T1 players that communicate. Whether they do that in a group or over open comms, the result is the same.

-B- if you divide the queue up into one solo queue and one group queue, you will effectively kill group play, as the player population will result in long waits for all-group play except at peak times. heck, it did this in 12v12 back when the population was higher.

[Saved By The Bell]

I am ok, but I had several stomps today against jgx group. My team potato died with 0-200 damage several times. I dont think, they liked it.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 26 October 2021 - 07:57 AM.

[pbiggz]

Saved By The Bell, on 26 October 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

Groups shouldnt be in QP, because its stomps all time. Tier 1 groups against tier 3-4 potato.

Ask your matchmaker for data not me.

T1s do not match with T4s.

There are statistics that have already been shared that back that up. What you have presented is anecdote. There are some T1 units that field dangerous 4 mans. You could count those units on one hand. You're arguing for a soft ban of the game's most active players because some people click heads better than you.

If it seems like every post i'm making here is saying the same thing now, its because every post im making in this thread is saying the same thing. Y'all gotta stop this.

[Saved By The Bell]

I am ok, but potato quit, so.

[dubstep albatross]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2021 - 08:00 AM, said:

T1s do not match with T4s.

There are statistics that have already been shared that back that up. What you have presented is anecdote. There are some T1 units that field dangerous 4 mans. You could count those units on one hand. You're arguing for a soft ban of the game's most active players because some people click heads better than you.

If it seems like every post i'm making here is saying the same thing now, its because every post im making in this thread is saying the same thing. Y'all gotta stop this.

Can you share a link to your source regarding the statistics you keep referencing? Was it in this thread and I missed it?

[Davegt27]

the activities in this station proves my darkest nightmares have become reality
my dream has dissolved into infighting and warfare between my followers
you are not worthy to be my successors
I can not allow this battle station to fall into such inferior hands


https://youtu.be/lj1gIRUHTug?t=1022

Edited by Davegt27, 26 October 2021 - 01:08 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Saved By The Bell, on 26 October 2021 - 07:56 AM, said:

I am ok, but I had several stomps today against jgx group. My team potato died with 0-200 damage several times. I dont think, they liked it.

And out of the 1,000+ matches that were played those were statistically insignificant in the overall.

• No one likes being stomped.
  
• No one likes stomping.
  
• The MM needs to be improved. PGI walked away from it and left it all half-finished.

But lets be realistic here - ~10% of the population is Tier 1. So they will filter into T2/T3 matches as outlined in various MM threads. They do not appear in T4 matches unless they engage in PSR tomfoolery (extremely rare).

There are something like 100k games played a month. The Elite 4-man stomps might feel common in a small sample space. The reality is they are not common in the overall.

I've been dropping solo almost exclusively for 2 months now as a number of people have noticed. I've been doing this to see if this "4man stomp group" stuff is as accurate as people claim or is it a sensationalist Boogeyman.

Fact is - I'm not seeing it to a prolific nature. Granted I can beat a lot of 4mans on my own, even taking that into account...

• Yes there are stomps when there a TRULY Elite group is out. The games are not unwinnable and certainly stomps can be avoided.
  
• The games where there are TRULY Elite groups out is rare. I've played during NA, OCE and Early EU Prime. OCE if there is a strong group out given population you're gonna be matched almost always - I'm not seeing many (and we're all mates so we know when people are on).
  
• I've had stomps in complete no-name/no-group matches just as often.
  
• Even when there are two Elite Groups on either team and I would say the match is '50/50', they can end in a 12-0 stomp just as easily as they can end in a 12-7 result as there are so many factors at play.
  
• Groups can negatively influence a match just as much as positive.

So ye, overall I'm honestly not seeing it as big of a drama as people make claim. I have suspected this to be the case for quite a while and after a few hundred game - while not a large enough sample space - my feeling is that I am correct.

• Do I still dislike the idea of a SoupQ? Yes. Always have.
  
• Is it as impactful on the game as a vocal few tend to suggest? No.

I'll leave this game from a couple weeks back... Groups can throw just as hard. Groups down, stronk player up - ONE and TWO.

[justcallme A S H]

dubstep albatross, on 26 October 2021 - 08:08 AM, said:

Can you share a link to your source regarding the statistics you keep referencing? Was it in this thread and I missed it?

An explaination of how the MM works is pinned in this very section - HERE


T1s in T4s have also been solidly tested by a number of players in the last 3-5 months including myself. We've all played 100s of games on T4 Alts to see if T1s will match that far down. I've slogged out 250 games on a T4 alt just me.

Overall it can be confirmed that T4s/T5s do NOT match in T1 games as the thread linked above explains.


The only time they do is if a T1 player groups with 2-3 Tier 4/5 guys and the overall PSR is low enough to match them down that low. This occurrence is very, very rare (1-2 games in 100s) from what players have reported back.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

yesterday we have 4 Moembers of a Polish Group in the own Team ,and 2 from the same team by the other Team ,we loose , and in spectator mode im can seeing the 4 Member in the own Team was the only guys thats effective fight against hers Groupmates and the other team , the most of the own Team stand passive behind and waiting thats others doing her Job and share his Armor and in Pain against the Gaussfire ...

im self (Founder and T3)was killed as Prime target of Alpine as first in my Timberwolf (2xLrm15 3 Large Laser) with only 98 dmg by Multiple Gaussfire while im not will stand in the Duck Bill Bubble behind the Hills and wait of the Push from the other active Team and it was ok, the other team has good Positions on Alpine and Hold it with Crossfire , the most in a ECM Bubble.The 4 Polish Member in her Lights not can carrys the complete Team when it not supported her Work .
In the Matchs yesterday im seeing many of my Team was very new in Gaming and have massive problems to move the Cursor and hit others as the Terrain, or use R or the Minimaps , confused , most in panic or Max Zoom Mode , and for it better a Pve Mode to learn the Basics and not fall first in the sharkpool of the PvP and against real hard groups like RJF in FP (who you dies in seconds) , the QP is real easy mode.

Quote

[color=#959595]I am ok, but I had several stomps today against jgx group. My team potato died with 0-200 damage several times. I dont think, they liked it.[/color]

than the Team was terrible and the Players have nothing experience with mechfights, Weapons, and Builds or plays NASCAR

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 26 October 2021 - 08:32 PM.

[Horseman]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

Again, this is statistically false. Groups do not have a major impact on quick play.

On a large scale the positive and negative influences balance out., yes. At the level of individual groups, though, depending on the group's composition, they can produce skewed matches.
That was always the argument, but according to casuals it must have been lies by evil T1s trying to stop them from "playing with their friends" (read: seal-clubbing T5 by dint of having a fraction of a percentage better coordination than the rest of their team).

Quote

Odd commentary aside, the only reason this thread keeps reappearing is because a small group of players is convinced removing groups from the queue will make their personal WLR go up.

Bads do as bads are... they will always make excuses like that. If they get what they asked for, there will be another excuse.

Quote

As I have said, on multiple occasions, this game as about 1000 concurrent players at best. That is a very delicate player base that is quite sensitive to shocks. Soft-banning the most active players in the game from the only real active queue in the game would definitely constitute a shock and would be absolutely suicidal for the game.

It would; it's not like the players making such "proposals" consider the consequences beyond getting rid of people who make them look bad in comparison.

pbiggz, on 26 October 2021 - 08:00 AM, said:

T1s do not match with T4s.

Here's a gotcha: when you consider how abysmally bad some of the T4-T5 pilots are, from their perspective anyone who can consistently put more damage on target than off it seems elite in comparison.

Edited by Horseman, 26 October 2021 - 09:54 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Quote

On a large scale the positive and negative influences balance out., yes. At the level of individual groups, though, depending on the group's composition, they can produce skewed matches.

Well sometimes you loose, sometimes the other side wins

Isn't it allways so that the few bad matches are more well remembered then the ones that where average or the few good ones?
I have to say that I also was on the side of "statistics lie" but after writing things down myself (matchresults and own performance) I had to admit that it was me that remembers things differently from how the matches play out.

As for groupplay, I am still all for it. From what I had checked in T3 my good and bad matches are kinda equal. Yes there are days it seams you can't win at all and there are others where its reversed. I for one decided that if a day is bad, just don't play. I have enough other stuff to do that is also fun for me. There will be another day where I am better and the matches are better.

Edited by Nesutizale, 26 October 2021 - 11:43 PM.

[PocketYoda]

justcallme A S H, on 22 October 2021 - 05:08 AM, said:

As I said in the very post you quoted - go see for yourself. Go watch 200-300hrs+ a month of low tier streamers. What you are talking about simply is not accurate. It is a very, very rare occurrence and only happens in a specific situation. It is not remotely common and grossly misleading to try and claim so.

You should should know this Samial. But then you do have a history of posting a lot of things that are incredibly inaccurate/sensationalist. This is most certainly another one of those examples.

I have literally done it myself multiple times.. i have joined multiple cohesive tier 1 players as a tier 4 and 5 and guess where we fought... tier 4 and 5 matches.

[justcallme A S H]

Read my post above. I covered that as I have many timeswith regards to how it works.

[DaZur]

End of the day... "You win some and you loose some".

That said, it seems, without getting too political, the player base in many ways mirrors systemic issues our societies are facing. In short, many refuse to do a little self-assessment and understand "THEY" are the issue, not the match-maker... not the groups... not the tier boogieman. In their mind, it has to be something else...

Of course the MM, groups and tiers have impact on matches. Your being obtuse if you think otherwise... That said, ignoring your personal impact on match outcome is just arrogant foolery.

[pbiggz]

Horseman, on 26 October 2021 - 09:48 PM, said:

On a large scale the positive and negative influences balance out., yes. At the level of individual groups, though, depending on the group's composition, they can produce skewed matches.

This is tricky because people who are determined to make this into a fight will point to that as conclusive proof. I've logged in as a solo and logged out an hour and a half later having lost every match I played.

I've also logged in and got strings of staggering victories. To take one half as a conclusive set of data and not the other is to ignore half of the data.

Horseman, on 26 October 2021 - 09:48 PM, said:

That was always the argument, but according to casuals it must have been lies by evil T1s trying to stop them from "playing with their friends" (read: seal-clubbing T5 by dint of having a fraction of a percentage better coordination than the rest of their team).
Bads do as bads are... they will always make excuses like that. If they get what they asked for, there will be another excuse.
It would; it's not like the players making such "proposals" consider the consequences beyond getting rid of people who make them look bad in comparison.

There is a literal conspiracy that states T1 players are making alts en-masse to join lower tier matches in a group and victimize players. Theres like, 2, maybe 3 guys that pushed that conspiracy so I don't discuss it much as it's not particularly valuable in this topic. I'm more concerned with the people who honestly think that their match quality has dropped post-merge. That has largely not been born out by any available stats.

PS. For any naysayers out there for whom A S H's stats aren't good enough, I'm parsing through chunks of the jarls list and averaging out WLR before the merger (season 46) and after. Without naming names, some of you are arguing that your match quality has dropped precipitously since the merger, and your win loss rate either didn't change, or improved, so y'all need to reflect on why you've taken so much time and energy to convince yourself that groups are making the game worse for you personally, because they aren't.

Horseman, on 26 October 2021 - 09:48 PM, said:

Here's a gotcha: when you consider how abysmally bad some of the T4-T5 pilots are, from their perspective anyone who can consistently put more damage on target than off it seems elite in comparison.

Most guys are just interested in clicking the bad robots. For sure, some weird stuff happens in T4 and T5, but for the most part these people are not spending time and energy fabricating a victim complex for themselves. The people who are most militant about groups reducing their quality of play in queue are fairly established in this game, and not really bottom of the barrel in terms of tier. It's actually an interesting phenomenon because as I mentioned, their WLR is public information available on jarls list, and they largely did not suffer any significant changes due to the queue merger.

DaZur, on 27 October 2021 - 04:57 AM, said:

End of the day... "You win some and you loose some".

That said, it seems, without getting too political, the player base in many ways mirrors systemic issues our societies are facing. In short, many refuse to do a little self-assessment and understand "THEY" are the issue, not the match-maker... not the groups... not the tier boogieman. In their mind, it has to be something else...

Of course the MM, groups and tiers have impact on matches. Your being obtuse if you think otherwise... That said, ignoring your personal impact on match outcome is just arrogant foolery.

This is kinda the long and the short of it. People win and people lose, and some people just can't tolerate a loss. For them losing some matches must mean some other malevolent force has to be effecting their outcomes.

[Horseman]

pbiggz, on 27 October 2021 - 05:04 AM, said:

There is a literal conspiracy that states T1 players are making alts en-masse to join lower tier matches in a group and victimize players. Theres like, 2, maybe 3 guys that pushed that conspiracy so I don't discuss it much as it's not particularly valuable in this topic.

I know. Such a theory would be provable (or disprovable) by tracking the suspected alts on Jarl's. Fresh accounts with high performance aren't exactly inconspicuous - comparing this account and my F2P alt Horseman IIC as an example, when the latter was created, "I" was oscillating around the 80th percentile but same performance against T5 opponents put the alt in top 1.5% .

Quote

I'm more concerned with the people who honestly think that their match quality has dropped post-merge. That has largely not been born out by any available stats.

PS. For any naysayers out there for whom A S H's stats aren't good enough, I'm parsing through chunks of the jarls list and averaging out WLR before the merger (season 46) and after. Without naming names, some of you are arguing that your match quality has dropped precipitously since the merger, and your win loss rate either didn't change, or improved, so y'all need to reflect on why you've taken so much time and energy to convince yourself that groups are making the game worse for you personally, because they aren't.

I think that argument comes more from their feeling of loss of agency than anything else

Quote

This is kinda the long and the short of it. People win and people lose, and some people just can't tolerate a loss. For them losing some matches must mean some other malevolent force has to be effecting their outcomes.

Ie business as usual with scrubs and sore losers.