45 replies to this topic

[Escef]

The primary problem with people that hang back to snipe is that they have a nasty problem with just camping a spot and hoping a target will wander under their crosshairs. I don't care how defensible or great the view is at your sniper nest, if you have no targets it's a bad position. For those of you snipers that like to think of yourselves as hunters, guess what? If your nest is in the middle of Brooklyn you aren't going to be shooting any deer. Similarly, if you are camping a spot on the wall (or whatever, depending upon the map) with no view of the opfor, you aren't shooting them.

I always thought sharing armor was BS, and people used to tell me I was stupid for it. Now, sharing aggro, getting the enemy's attention? That's good, a step in the right direction. But it still isn't where folks need to be. What you should be sharing is firepower. Against the opfor team. With prejudice.

If this was a game with regenerating shields/armor, or where armor made you impervious to certain kinds of damage, playing the wait'n'see game would make some sense. But if you've got an entire team with heat gauges at zero and you're camped behind cover, you have a problem. Because while you're sitting there doing nothing the other team is probably getting ready to rush in and eat you. If they aren't, well, both teams are doing something wrong. If your "strategy" is reliant upon the other team making mistakes than what you have is a bad strategy. If your team isn't setting the tempo and making the plays, then all you're doing is waiting for the opfor to do so. And they are going to set things up to work for themselves, not for you.

So, back to snipers. I've seen snipers do work. Usually, however, they don't. Because the majority of snipers I've witnessed just passively wait for a target to bumble along. What usually happens is the sniper leaves his 11 teammates to face the enemy team of 12, and if things go the way they often do the result is 7 to 9 enemy mechs hunting for the sniper and the last 1 or 2 fast movers on his team that got away from the killing floor. By the end of the match the sniper gets maybe 3 alphas worth of damage out, and maybe vultures a kill... A sniper that does work, that looks for targets and hammers them when he can, can be a great asset. Most of the time, in my experience, that's not what happens.

TL; DR version - If you're going to do it, be active about it. Aggression wins games.

Edited by Escef, 22 October 2021 - 04:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yeah anyone who says Direwolf can't face time has never been on the wrong end of 8 AC-2s. The whale can pack an assload of long range guns and win trades beyond the effective range of its victim's weapons. In fact, I'd almost hesitate to field the UAC-10/5 build because it kind of feels like the wrong way to play the whale. An Assault at long range that's hitting its targets has amaaazing staying power, because all that armour counts for more beyond effective range.

With that said, winning trades by factoring effective range as part of your armour is not a concept that is usually grasped by the average sniper. That's why sharing armour is the better mantra in my opinion - it's a simpler strategy to drill to.

things get interesting when you look at how weapons perform at specific range brackets. here are the 1k damage numbers for the weapons that can do damage at 1k without quirks/nodes/tc/etc (rac2 is missing because it broke my math, but it can only really scratch paint at 1km):

NAME 1km damage 1km dps 1km dph
GAUSS RIFLE 12.70 2.67 12.70
LB 10-X AC 5.74 2.55 2.87
C-GAUSS RIFLE 12.70 2.54 12.70
C-LB 2-X AC 1.78 2.47 4.44
C-AC/2 1.78 2.47 3.56
LB 2-X AC 1.77 2.45 4.41
LIGHT GAUSS RIFLE 8.47 2.42 15.40
LB 5-X AC 3.93 2.37 3.93
C-ER PPC 11.48 2.30 0.79
C-ULTRA AC/2 1.53 2.13 2.19
ER PPC 7.65 1.91 0.64
C-ER LARGE LASER 8.42 1.87 0.89
C-LB 5-X AC 3.06 1.84 3.06
C-AC/5 3.06 1.84 2.44
AC/2 1.22 1.70 2.44
ULTRA AC/2 1.14 1.59 1.63
ER LARGE LASER 5.84 1.46 0.78
C-ULTRA AC/5 2.06 1.24 1.24
AC/5 1.94 1.17 1.76
ULTRA AC/5 1.67 1.00 1.00
C-LARGE PULSE LASER 2.36 0.74 0.26
C-AC/10 1.48 0.66 0.74
C-LB 10-X AC 1.48 0.66 0.74
C-ULTRA AC/10 1.48 0.59 0.42
C-ATM 12 2.81 0.56 0.31
LB 20-X AC 2.22 0.56 0.56
HEAVY PPC 2.22 0.44 0.16
C-ATM 9 2.11 0.42 0.30
PPC 1.48 0.37 0.16
C-ATM 6 1.40 0.35 0.31
LIGHT PPC 0.81 0.27 0.18
C-ATM 3 0.70 0.23 0.28

(table formatting derp)

600m is probibly a more interesting bracket as a lot more weapons come into play. but most long range weapons do full damage in that bracket.

there is an advantage to standing in the open, and thats first shoot advantage. you can hang your crosshair near where the enemy last poked, so your initial salvo can often be inbound before the enemy has even humped high enough to see you. of course this doesnt work if you are eating damage in doing this. its not as good as being able to hump and dump a large laser alpha, but the dire isnt exactly spectacular in that role and you got to play a mech to its strengths.

e: atms not compatible with my math.
damage * (1-((desired range-optimal range)/(max range - optimal range)))

Edited by LordNothing, 25 October 2021 - 12:31 AM.

[pbiggz]

Blood Rose, on 22 October 2021 - 04:18 PM, said:

Just going to say, sharing armour goes both ways. By all means, cry about the Assault not 'sharing its armour' but if your popping up for 0.2 second vomit dumps and running and hiding the second an enemy Light looks at you funny, then you are part of the problem.
Also, there is nothing quite as funny as seeing heavies and mediums with next to no damage break and flee in the face of the awesome might of a.... Flea?!

Like I said, if that's the problem here, that's a problem with someone not knowing how to snipe, not a problem with assault mechs "sharing armour".

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

LordNothing, on 22 October 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

im not seeing it. at least in qp middle tier i can usually get out 3 or 4 salvos against poking players, damage equivalent to a large erll alpha or four cerppcs. against skilled players you might be able to pull off 1 or 2. at the other end there are players who are unaware that they are being hit by 16 damage every 2/3 a second and will eat them till they die. part of winning trades is knowing when you are losing them, in that case reposition and try again or try something else.

Everything is relative. I suppose you could out-trade any other mech in an 8 AC2 DWF, but that is more a skill and/or situational difference if anything else. I define 'trading' as: 2 opponents exchanging shots from behind cover. I feel like the DWF is too slow and requires too much exposure to be good at trades, especially when compared to BLR or various NSR builds. Unlike these 2 mechs, I get hit more often than not when I am forced to expose.

LordNothing, on 22 October 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

you can also use it as suppressing fire to support other traders. by keeping the mechs with low skill or low damage output down, and giving your team the numbers advantage in the trade. so it is useful in a trade fight in a team setting.

Absolutely!

LordNothing, on 22 October 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

i think the real benefit of the uv is that it can work in a wide range of situations. range trading, skirmishing, brawling, controlling terrain, area denial, etc. its a lot more jack of all trades than the dedicated ranged trader platforms. this makes it very useful in qp at least. it doesnt always do well in fp with a lot of skilled players and meta mechs, but sometimes it does. it most certainly is not a potato mech, unless piloted by one.

Agreed. The AC2 DWF's superiority is not because it is amazing in one situation (e.g. current KDK-3), it is just good in lots of situations. You can suppress, support fire, finish mechs, wear down lights (it has an unusually high alpha for AC2s, despite convergence issues), and control movement at a variety of ranges. It just doesn't do well in a fair fight.

I bring up the AC2 because, based on what I have seen, it is quite a misunderstood weapon. It is not exclusively for extreme range, it works at almost any range (bar short range). I think I mentioned how good its DPS is compared to even short-range weapons. You don't want to use it in short-range though, because it isn't too easy to land all the shots where you want. Also, I want to buck the trend of high alpha builds, and give an example of a high DPS build that works well, provided the conditions are right. If I thought high alpha builds were OP, I would say so.

Sorry to say, but that table means nothing to me. You need to control for many, many more variables. It is better to judge between comparable pure boat builds if you are judging specific weapons.


Right! I will scurry back to my dark Mad (Mech) Science Lab where I belong.

[Revis Volek]

This thread is cute

You players are too adorable but there is no new players here. Its hard to get old players here.

[C E Dwyer]

Seems pretty obvious to me what the issue is.

Skill Caps and attitudes.

The skilled player sniping works. because they know where to set up, to mitigate, falling to light mechs, understand how far away, from the rest of the team, they can safely be.

The we'll politely call him/her/they, that isn't skilled, wants a piece of that 1000k damage, they know none of the above, and also can't hit. half the time. from 250 meters.

These are the people that most certainly shouldn't be in a Madcat 2 1000 meters to the rear, but they are in abundance.

Then there are LRM boats.

LRM boat or two one your side, can be the difference between winning or losing in QP. if used properly ( you know the way most people don't. Two or three lengths behind the lead mech where they can use Tag and not just in a hole, pointing it at the side walls).

So O.P. is both correct and incorrect, but generalised.

Then of course there is the wannabe, the one that did as op suggests, and just picks off final kill shoots while telling the rest how bad everyone else is, and how they hate being in teams full of scrubs.

Retitle thread Why are people that couldn't shot their own foot off if they had help to aim not sharing armor.

Then most people should be happy.

except the person that really really hate their ingrown toe nail.

Edited by C E Dwyer, 23 October 2021 - 08:28 AM.

[pattonesque]

C E Dwyer, on 23 October 2021 - 08:27 AM, said:

Seems pretty obvious to me what the issue is.

Skill Caps and attitudes.

The skilled player sniping works. because they know where to set up, to mitigate, falling to light mechs, understand how far away, from the rest of the team, they can safely be.

The we'll politely call him/her/they, that isn't skilled, wants a piece of that 1000k damage, they know none of the above, and also can't hit. half the time. from 250 meters.

These are the people that most certainly shouldn't be in a Madcat 2 1000 meters to the rear, but they are in abundance.

Then there are LRM boats.

LRM boat or two one your side, can be the difference between winning or losing in QP. if used properly ( you know the way most people don't. Two or three lengths behind the lead mech where they can use Tag and not just in a hole, pointing it at the side walls).

So O.P. is both correct and incorrect, but generalised.

Then of course there is the wannabe, the one that did as op suggests, and just picks off final kill shoots while telling the rest how bad everyone else is, and how they hate being in teams full of scrubs.

Retitle thread Why are people that couldn't shot their own foot off if they had help to aim not sharing armor.

Then most people should be happy.

except the person that really really hate their ingrown toe nail.

I mean I specifically mentioned several times in the original post that this all depends on the position being played correctly

[Kanil]

pattonesque, on 23 October 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

I mean I specifically mentioned several times in the original post that this all depends on the position being played correctly

... and like 99% of snipers don't play the position correctly, because the only reason they're snipers in the first place is because they're too bad to actively engage the enemy, but have concluded that using their teammates as meatshields gives them a chance to do another couple hundred damage.

So yeah, sure, a good sniper assault played well is a worthwhile contribution to the team -- you can say that about basically any 'mech. But most snipers totally deserve the reputation the "class" as a whole has built up over time.

[LordNothing]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 23 October 2021 - 05:18 AM, said:

Everything is relative. I suppose you could out-trade any other mech in an 8 AC2 DWF, but that is more a skill and/or situational difference if anything else. I define 'trading' as: 2 opponents exchanging shots from behind cover. I feel like the DWF is too slow and requires too much exposure to be good at trades, especially when compared to BLR or various NSR builds. Unlike these 2 mechs, I get hit more often than not when I am forced to expose.



Absolutely!



Agreed. The AC2 DWF's superiority is not because it is amazing in one situation (e.g. current KDK-3), it is just good in lots of situations. You can suppress, support fire, finish mechs, wear down lights (it has an unusually high alpha for AC2s, despite convergence issues), and control movement at a variety of ranges. It just doesn't do well in a fair fight.

I bring up the AC2 because, based on what I have seen, it is quite a misunderstood weapon. It is not exclusively for extreme range, it works at almost any range (bar short range). I think I mentioned how good its DPS is compared to even short-range weapons. You don't want to use it in short-range though, because it isn't too easy to land all the shots where you want. Also, I want to buck the trend of high alpha builds, and give an example of a high DPS build that works well, provided the conditions are right. If I thought high alpha builds were OP, I would say so.

Sorry to say, but that table means nothing to me. You need to control for many, many more variables. It is better to judge between comparable pure boat builds if you are judging specific weapons.


Right! I will scurry back to my dark Mad (Mech) Science Lab where I belong.

dps is good for when you have to fight in the open. not to say you should fight in the open, but if you have a mech that cant hill hump well, dps is an option. if you ever get caught in the open against a rac5 boat, you know how much of a bad situation you are in. unless you can land a lethal or at least crippling alpha on it, your best bet is to head for cover. now add range and you got something quite dangerous.

the table was to illustrate what other weapons can do at the edge of the uv's optimal range. the data is only useful at 1km operation, and most battles take place a lot closer than that. things like quirks and skill tree allocations and tcs (they can boost laser range) can all throw a monkey wrench into matters (keep in mind the uv has to invest heavily in range nodes to get beyond 1km optimal). if you build a mech to operate at a certain range bracket, it pays to characterize what that mech can do against potential adversaries. which mechs you want to engage with and which you want to avoid. i can imagine mwowc players making tables like this and then drilling at every range bracket to try and get every scrap of performance advantage over the enemy as possible.

there was the battle simulator that lets you do the same thing without needing to spreadsheet everything, but its out of date and only takes smurfy build links. its probibly not up to snuff with the current state of the game though.

https://www.4eye-lab...ator/#s=default

would love to see that updated and integrated into the new mechdb.

[pattonesque]

Kanil, on 23 October 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

... and like 99% of snipers don't play the position correctly, because the only reason they're snipers in the first place is because they're too bad to actively engage the enemy, but have concluded that using their teammates as meatshields gives them a chance to do another couple hundred damage.

So yeah, sure, a good sniper assault played well is a worthwhile contribution to the team -- you can say that about basically any 'mech. But most snipers totally deserve the reputation the "class" as a whole has built up over time.

Very few players play any position correctly. Assault brawlers yolo into five mechs and die while left clicking twice, medium skirmishers don’t fire a shot until five minutes have gone by, LRM boats lock on the first target they see and never switch, light pilots tumbleweed into the enemy and die immediately after popping a UAV, etc. lots of players fail to play these roles properly. It’s just that a bad sniper is very likely to be the only one alive at the end of a stomp and is therefore the easiest to single out. No one is going to single out the dummy playing a heavy mech who spent the entire match taking bad positions and cringing away from actually having to fight because his poor play was far less visible.

Edited by pattonesque, 23 October 2021 - 05:03 PM.

[caravann]

100ton are special Pattonesque

It is our solemn oath that everyone should do what them can to spare these precious 100ton mechs from any harm.

Mad 2 is too precious to risk in combat.

Under no circumstances can we put a 100ton in danger

We must protect them.

[RickySpanish]

caravann, on 23 October 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

100ton are special Pattonesque

It is our solemn oath that everyone should do what them can to spare these precious 100ton mechs from any harm.

Mad 2 is too precious to risk in combat.

Under no circumstances can we put a 100ton in danger

We must protect them.

That's absolutely correct! It is the 100 tonner's sacred rite to proceed across the battlefield how it chooses. Everyone else must make allowances for their slow, ponderous speed. Situational awareness is not required, and should the 100 tonner choose to sit a kilometer away, perched on some outcrop somewhere, then it is their right to do so! Under no circumstances should 100 tons of available weight and armour be used to its maximum potential. All of that armour is NOT a resource to be used to help the team - hell no. It's there for when your team of total idiots fails to win without 100 tons of contribution, and allows you - the sacred 100 tonner, enough time to whinge and moan before your reactor blows up.

[pattonesque]

caravann, on 23 October 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

100ton are special Pattonesque

It is our solemn oath that everyone should do what them can to spare these precious 100ton mechs from any harm.

Mad 2 is too precious to risk in combat.

Under no circumstances can we put a 100ton in danger

We must protect them.

is this you purposely misunderstanding or actually misunderstanding

[Blood Rose]

He does have somewhat of a point, but there are also Heavy and Medium snipers who do the same thing (IE, sit at the very maximum range they can and plink ineffectually whilst the rest of the team dies)

[pattonesque]

Blood Rose, on 23 October 2021 - 05:35 PM, said:

He does have somewhat of a point, but there are also Heavy and Medium snipers who do the same thing (IE, sit at the very maximum range they can and plink ineffectually whilst the rest of the team dies)

I mean again, very few roles are actually played well. the OP was an example of how to play this one specific role well. I think that dude is just being obtuse.

[pbiggz]

Blood Rose, on 23 October 2021 - 05:35 PM, said:

He does have somewhat of a point, but there are also Heavy and Medium snipers who do the same thing (IE, sit at the very maximum range they can and plink ineffectually whilst the rest of the team dies)

Again that's not a problem with an assault "not sharing armour" its a problem with someone taking up 100 tons to snipe when they don't know **** about sniping and cant hit the broadside of an awesome.

[Dauntless Blint]

RickySpanish, on 22 October 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yeah anyone who says Direwolf can't face time has never been on the wrong end of 8 AC-2s. The whale can pack an assload of long range guns and win trades beyond the effective range of its victim's weapons. In fact, I'd almost hesitate to field the UAC-10/5 build because it kind of feels like the wrong way to play the whale. An Assault at long range that's hitting its targets has amaaazing staying power, because all that armour counts for more beyond effective range.

With that said, winning trades by factoring effective range as part of your armour is not a concept that is usually grasped by the average sniper. That's why sharing armour is the better mantra in my opinion - it's a simpler strategy to drill to.

Yes and Screen Shake counts as armor too for some mechs with big CT's that can't twist off the damage.
It is wise to play somewhat reserved with assaults until you can see an opportunity to break the enemy formations back, armor meta only matters when the enemy has to fight an overmatch and a focused fire receiving assault only has a half a second survival time if it's all CT strikes.
Skirmish bros' need to poke and pull the enemy formation in an awkward way or take one step forward and return fire while their fatty cools off next to a cover feature, in a manner that if your teammate is taking damage you are invulnerable to that shooter so peak.
So many times I take 3 fat steps back because my internals are melting only for the support mech to lose heart turn tail and run
It's ok to take aggravation and supply your fatties with back shots too by turning heads from time to time.
Hunter and Hunting Dog combo works really good.

[QuePan]

ill say this its all about stay coherent to your team mates not 1000m back from the lines on a wall shooting gauss and PPC . you can be backend support of the pack using flanking points to get shots off at your optimal ranges not your extreme range which is what most "Snipers sitting on the wall are doing in 9 out of 10 cases if your moving with your team at the edge of the wall so ya "sharing your armor" is more about supporting your team then running into a brawl if your sitting back while the team is collapsing cuz your damage isnt making a bit of difference then your not contributing to the team and not "sharing your armor" i would say you need to rethink what your doing to your teammates by choosing not to sit back and snipe at long ranges instead really help the team by being closer to the formation . its the same thing with LRMS you go with the team instead of sitting way back at 900 to 1000 meters you get up too 500 meters and youll find your more effective and youll find you actually win more matches that way

[LordNothing]

pattonesque, on 23 October 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

is this you purposely misunderstanding or actually misunderstanding

poe's law: it is impossible to tell the difference between an extremist position and a parody of same.

[Storming Angel]

pattonesque, on 23 October 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

is this you purposely misunderstanding or actually misunderstanding

Its called taking the piss. I assume players like him assume all assaults need to suicide into the nearest enemy rotation rather than playing to their strengths and minimising their weaknesses.

Sure sitting at 1000m is pointless when you sit in one place (unless you move about or your team has a working brain and sits in a position to use said long range support to their adv). But at least that mech can then move about and still fight. A mech going of to brawl with long range weapons is just plain mental.

Most people fail to look at the minimap, so its no surprise many still fail to play their mechs properly half the time.