74 replies to this topic

[Hawok79]

Heho,
A Marauder 2 4L can fire 2 Gaus and 2 ER PPC simultaneously without Ghostheat and geting only 38% Heat with only two double Heatsinks in Engine.


Happens this per accident or is this intenden to be.


That is ridiculous!!!

Edited by Hawok79, 05 December 2021 - 06:55 AM.

[w0qj]

Clicky:

https://mwomercs.com...0-19october2021

Marauder II
MAD-4L:
Added -10% Gauss cooldown
Increased ER PPC HSL to +2 (from 1)

- - - - - - - - - -
https://mwomercs.com...21september2021

"[IS] Gauss Rifle:
Increased minimum heat penalty limit to 7 (from 4)

Clan Gauss Rifle:
Increased minimum heat penalty limit to 7 (from 3)

In the current heat scale system, Gauss rifles and various types of PPCs share the same penalty category. As our quirk passes continue, utilization of Heat Scale limit boosters for various types of PPCs are utilized on a number of mechs. However, such HSL quirks do not apply to Gauss rifles resulting in unintentional heat penalties when firing some PPC and Gauss combinations. This is due to the low heat penalty limit stats for Gauss rifles which are not affected by the PPC HSL quirks.

To be able to control the number of PPC and Gauss weapons that are allowed to be used with no penalty, in this patch heat penalty limits for Gauss rifles are increased considerably. Despite the high limit, this does not affect the normal operation of Gauss and PPC combos, since Gauss rifles have a charge limit of 2 which acts as a hard limit on how many Gauss rifles can be used in an Alpha and all types of PPC weapons have minimum heat penalty limits equal to 3 and above.

As an example, This change will allow a mech with a PPC HSL +1 quirk to fire 3xPPCs+1xGauss rifle or 2xHPPCs+1xGauss without any penalty.

It is worth noting that this change will not affect how everything works right now. You will be penalized if you fire a combo of three ERPPC and Gauss together.

The change affects mechs that have ERPPC HSL +2 (currently only MAD-6S and TDR-9S) to allow it to fire 3 ERPPCs and Gauss with no penalty. The value of 7 is chosen as a limit we will never reach, effectively removing gauss as a limiting factor in how many weapons can alpha in a group. leaving it all to PPC family weapons. Remember that you can not fire more than 2 Gauss rifles at the same time due to charge limit.

This change is a foundation for potential future quirks."

- - - - - - - - - -
Full list of Cauldron patches since April'2021:

https://mwomercs.com...auldron-changes

Edited by w0qj, 05 December 2021 - 05:09 AM.

[Hawok79]

Sorry,i forget the "2" for the ER PPC.

2 Gaus and 2 ER PPC simultaneously...

Edited by Hawok79, 05 December 2021 - 06:57 AM.

[pattonesque]

The reason it can do this is that the MAD-4L is a mess of a mech otherwise. The ERPPC mounts are high but so far above the cockpit that you have to expose half the mech to use them. The gauss rifles are in two low, wide arms which catch every pebble and little bit of cover within 20m. If you manage to get properly set up, the thing is very powerful. But just as a for instance, it cannot effectively poke against anything that’s already prepared—good players will shoot it and retreat into cover before it can bring its alpha to bear

[Heavy Money]

Hawok79, on 05 December 2021 - 04:42 AM, said:

Heho,
A Marauder 2 4L can fire 2 Gaus and 2 ER PPC simultaneously without Ghostheat and geting only 38% Heat with only two double Heatsinks in Engine.


Happens this per accident or is this intenden to be.


That is ridiculous!!!

It was intentional to let the MAD-4L alpha for more damage to justify how big and slow and clunky it is. Before it was using 2GR+1ERPPC for 40alpha or 1GR+1LGR+2ERPPC for 45 alpha. There are heavy mech 2LGR+2ERPPC loadouts that do 40 with way better mobility and mounts, so it just couldn't compete. Leaving the heat quirk on has caused it to be too efficient though. The Cauldron is aware of the issue and it is very likely the heat quirk will be adjusted or removed soon, or for the mech to otherwise be changed.

Here's some detailed analysis of the problem and how strong it is compared to other alternatives, and also its weaknesses so you can know how to fight it. In short, it hits hard, but is very vulnerable to return fire and harassment from fast mechs. If you ignore it, it'll farm you. If you counter it properly, it'll fall apart without accomplishing much. This is true for all really big snipers.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6433106

You can go read the original post in that thread to understand why the MAD II is in a particularly odd situation.

Edited by Heavy Money, 05 December 2021 - 03:36 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Hawok79, on 05 December 2021 - 04:42 AM, said:

That is ridiculous!!!

It is a 100T mech.

It is not ridiculous at all. It is being toned down a little this patch however.

[pattonesque]

justcallme A S H, on 05 December 2021 - 05:11 PM, said:

It is a 100T mech.

It is not ridiculous at all. It is being toned down a little this patch however.

toning down the heat is prolly a good idea, it'd be a strong mech even if it could "only" get off four alphas

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H, on 05 December 2021 - 05:11 PM, said:

It is a 100T mech.

It is not ridiculous at all. It is being toned down a little this patch however.

A 100 ton mech with low and wide arm hardpoints for half its weaponry. brutal if you're not the one being aimed at, punishing if you are, or if you're trying to corner peek. Nobody is going to be hanging up their fafnirs or annihilators just yet.

[PocketYoda]

I still think the Kaiju should be able to fire 4x ppc without ghost heat..

[Hawok79]

I don't agree...

It has ECM, has 150 armor on CT, can mount PPC very high, has no arm lock, is faster and more agile than a Dire.

You can fire this combo 6 times(3 DH in Engine) in a row without shutting down and all that without giving any skillpoints.

No clan mech can do that and most have low and wide arm hardpoints too,especially when it comes to balistics Hartpoints

Anyway, so it's not a fluke and fits well into the Pgi "balance" policy

Edited by Hawok79, 06 December 2021 - 06:22 AM.

[pattonesque]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

I don't agree...

It has ECM, has 150 armor on CT, can mount PPC very high, has no arm lock, is faster and more agile than a Dire.

You can fire this combo 6 times(3 DH in Engine) in a row without shutting down and all that without giving any skillpoints.

No clan mech can do that and most have low and wide arm hardpoints too,especially when it comes to balistics Hartpoints

Anyway, so it's not a fluke and fits well into the Pgi "balance" policy

as I explained earlier, the PPC mounts are high but the cockpit is low, so you cannot properly utilize them.

you may have also noticed that a reduction in its heat quirks is coming.

the MAD-4L's armpoints are extremely low and wide, more so than a Dire Wolf.

[Curccu]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

I don't agree...

Play only that mech & build for a quickplay season and see if it skyrockets your W/L K/D and avg. matchscore.
If it does, you got some base to that disagreement and keep posting to this thread.
If it does not, then you can agree why it has those quirks?

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

Anyway, so it's not a fluke and fits well into the Pgi "balance" policy

not PGI balance, Cauldron balance (these guys actually play the game they are trying to balance and at least few of them are pretty damn good at it.).

[pbiggz]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 06:20 AM, said:

I don't agree...

It has ECM, has 150 armor on CT, can mount PPC very high, has no arm lock, is faster and more agile than a Dire.

You can fire this combo 6 times(3 DH in Engine) in a row without shutting down and all that without giving any skillpoints.

No clan mech can do that and most have low and wide arm hardpoints too,especially when it comes to balistics Hartpoints

Anyway, so it's not a fluke and fits well into the Pgi "balance" policy

This aversion to anything having power should be rejected out of hand. Toning down some quirks is one thing. Cauldron is doing that. Suggesting that any use of gauss rifles with ppcs should be nerfed is just as outrageous as it was in 2013 when they originally got nerfed, if not more so, thanks to the charge time, and the need for very large, slow, fragile mechs to even run them effectively.

It's not "ridiculous" power. Most sniper players are exceptionally mediocre, and a marauder II will die quickly when it takes return fire.

[Hawok79]

Curccu, on 06 December 2021 - 06:45 AM, said:

Play only that mech & build for a quickplay season and see if it skyrockets your W/L K/D and avg. matchscore.
If it does, you got some base to that disagreement and keep posting to this thread.
If it does not, then you can agree why it has those quirks?


not PGI balance, Cauldron balance (these guys actually play the game they are trying to balance and at least few of them are pretty damn good at it.).

Ok.but they work for pgi or how can i imagine that?

If it were up to me, there would be no recharge time for Gausrifles as well as no (C)AC(C)UAC 5,10,20 etc with multiple bullets, as well as different burn times of lasers or any Weapon Combo restictions.

Let the Skill decide, not the Mech or Faction but this will not happen in this game

In the end it boils down to 3 things: facetime,dps (pinpoint) and mobility.

I survive much longer in a Summoner than in a Marauder IIC.

With this build I can do 50 pinpoint damage from full twist (assaulttwist ) over 800m and spread the incoming Dmg.An Kodiak 3 cant do this,in no configurattion.

Balance would mean it can do something comparable with any other 100t, that is not the case.

This game is not balanced.Balance means that you can do the same thing in diffrent way at the same time

Example: CSGO AK and M4

Staude, on 21 October 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

Here is some data I pulled from the leaderboards yesterday regarding what was shown on the player cards of the top 10 players of each division















That's the stats of the best 'Mechs in 1v1 if Clan Mechs were that good why there are almost none

[pbiggz]

What is your thesis here?

Like, what are you trying to argue? IS overpowered? Clans? Right now you're just saying "things are unbalanced", listing off builds, and then not explaining anything else.

[Ignatius Audene]

Kodiak has high mounts. No need for gigaquirks. Did 4 try 4 gauss or 4ac10 +2erppc?

That beeing said there are far to high long ranged alpha. FP turned even more in alpha warrior online.

[Curccu]

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

Ok.but they work for pgi or how can i imagine that?

I haven't heard that they get paid for this so not working for PGI.

Hawok79, on 06 December 2021 - 10:12 AM, said:

If it were up to me, there would be no recharge time for Gausrifles as well as no (C)AC(C)UAC 5,10,20 etc with multiple bullets, as well as different burn times of lasers or any Weapon Combo restictions.

Let the Skill decide, not the Mech or Faction but this will not happen in this game

In the end it boils down to 3 things: facetime,dps (pinpoint) and mobility.

I survive much longer in a Summoner than in a Marauder IIC.

With this build I can do 50 pinpoint damage from full twist (assaulttwist ) over 800m and spread the incoming Dmg.An Kodiak 3 cant do this,in no configurattion.

Balance would mean it can do something comparable with any other 100t, that is not the case.

This game is not balanced.Balance means that you can do the same thing in diffrent way at the same time

Example: CSGO AK and M4

But if you are comparing KDK3 to MAD-4L you are comparing Scout to AK
Balance doesn't mean everything has to be symmetrical, there can be other areas of strengths and weaknesses.
If this kdk-3 gets close to that MAD-4L you know that it will die if pilots are equal skill.

edit: those leaderboards are from solaris 1v1? and I didn't see this MAD-4L there with quick glance how are they relevant to this thread?

Edited by Curccu, 06 December 2021 - 11:03 AM.

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 06 December 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

I haven't heard that they get paid for this so not working for PGI.


But if you are comparing KDK3 to MAD-4L you are comparing Scout to AK
Balance doesn't mean everything has to be symmetrical, there can be other areas of strengths and weaknesses.
If this kdk-3 gets close to that MAD-4L you know that it will die if pilots are equal skill.

edit: those leaderboards are from solaris 1v1? and I didn't see this MAD-4L there with quick glance how are they relevant to this thread?

There seems to be alot of anger from Hawok, but no particular aim for it. He's just mad about the balance.

Edited by pbiggz, 06 December 2021 - 11:34 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

pbiggz, on 06 December 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

It's not "ridiculous" power. Most sniper players are exceptionally mediocre, and a marauder II will die quickly when it takes return fire.

My new habit of ambushing snipers on the walls of HPG with a fast medium confirms this with anecdotal evidence. The Marauder II has easy to hit side torsos, particularly the right with those high energy mounts. It doesn't take fire well, as that torso can be hit from nearly any angle.. Start with the right torso, if you get 2 solid hits in before he can return fire, its over.

[pbiggz]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 December 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

My new habit of ambushing snipers on the walls of HPG with a fast medium confirms this with anecdotal evidence. The Marauder II has easy to hit side torsos, particularly the right with those high energy mounts. It doesn't take fire well, as that torso can be hit from nearly any angle.. Start with the right torso, if you get 2 solid hits in before he can return fire, its over.

I've been toying with them for the last little bit. It's really fun to use gauss PPC like the old days, but its 100 tons, and slow. I usually get a good amount of firepower down range, before someone realizes im there, and chases me down. At 100 tons, and 50something kph, unless you have a standing escort (and you usually don't) your game pretty much ends there. They are not hard to kill at all. This fevered opposition to them even being present in the game at all is indefensible. It's the sorry cries of someone who simply wants everything he doesn't pilot himself to be nerfed. I have no respect for it.