174 replies to this topic

[pinetemplar]

<I played WoT a lot more then 25k matches with 60% winrate. Played some MW5 and decided to give this game a try. Made it to tier 4 in a week and well it is a pile of rotting **** so far.

First: Headshots. I understand that it is lore accurate but ffs can you balance them out? Is it that hard to not make them the part of the game. Where is the fun in both getting headshotted and getting a random kill that you will not even get damage from?

Second: LRM. I mean i get it - lore but man. WHY CAN'T WE AT LEAST BE ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND BUILDINGS? This is more idiotic then artillery in WoT. And they are called all the censored words there - i presume here also. Is it that hard to balance them? Also there is almost none tall enough obstacles to hide behind. And i don't care about lore - this is zero fun and a lot of bad experiences.

Third: Close combat vs light Mechs. Should i explain why it is pure cancer especially if your team doesn't pay attention? You don't even need o reinvent the wheel - in old MW were divisions so those cancer shitheads on their piranhas can go kill each other. Why do we have to deal with that? Is it that hard to make mixed divisions with like light+med, med+heavy and heavy+assault. Will be much more enjoyable to fight similar tonnage mechs then trying to find some stealth armor locust hiding in a corner in a skirmish.

Forth: Size of maps. It is pretty simple actually - maps a WAY TO BIG. Which leads to gaps in front line, which leads to people moving forward for actual gameplay and not finding anyone to engage therefor nascarring around and creating all this mess. There is just not enough mechs on the map to create a frontline. Period. You can't teach people to hold the line if there is none. Especially considering previous point when all the mechs have WAY different speed because of tonnage. Based on the size of the maps and amount of light mechs i presume this game needs at least 20vs20 maybe even up to 25 or 30 players on one side to create frontlines and actual tactical combat. Or maps should be shrunk to the seize where 12 mechs of this composition will be actually able to saturate them and not to feel like a drop in the ocean leading to all other issues.

[pbiggz]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

<I played WoT a lot more then 25k matches with 60% winrate. Played some MW5 and decided to give this game a try. Made it to tier 4 in a week and well it is a pile of rotting **** so far.

Sorry you aren't having fun. If you don't like it you shouldn't force yourself to play. I took a very long break before coming back and I've been enjoying it far more than i used to.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

First: Headshots. I understand that it is lore accurate but ffs can you balance them out? Is it that hard to not make them the part of the game. Where is the fun in both getting headshotted and getting a random kill that you will not even get damage from?

Headshots aren't really a major part of the game. There's an event going on right now i guess where it wants them. If you ask me the event was the problem here. Should have been a goal other than headshots.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Second: LRM. I mean i get it - lore but man. WHY CAN'T WE AT LEAST BE ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND BUILDINGS? This is more idiotic then artillery in WoT. And they are called all the censored words there - i presume here also. Is it that hard to balance them? Also there is almost none tall enough obstacles to hide behind. And i don't care about lore - this is zero fun and a lot of bad experiences.

There is a perception among newer or lower skill level players that LRMs are terrifying and unstoppable. The opposite perception exists among higher tier players because lock-on weapons have direct counters in the form of ECM, AMS, Sealth Armour, and straight up evasion. There's no equipment that will shoot down gauss rounds for example. If you're getting chewed up by LRMs, your positioning needs work. There really are no maps left that don't give you some place to shelter. If you're caught out in the open and getting LRMed to death, its no different then getting sniped to death with gauss and ER PPC because you were out of position. Weapons will perform exceptionally well if you get yourself in a spot that allows them to perform exceptionally well. Additionally consider shared targetting. If you are behind cover and still getting LRMed to death, it means someone is spotting you and feeding that info to a boat. In essence, you're still getting shot. Someone has direct line of sight. It takes alot going right for that strategy to work for the LRM boats, so theres alot you can do to counter that, namely, hiding in friendly ECM shrouds, and thinking more broadly about where you are positioned on the map.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Third: Close combat vs light Mechs. Should i explain why it is pure cancer especially if your team doesn't pay attention? You don't even need o reinvent the wheel - in old MW were divisions so those cancer shitheads on their piranhas can go kill each other. Why do we have to deal with that? Is it that hard to make mixed divisions with like light+med, med+heavy and heavy+assault. Will be much more enjoyable to fight similar tonnage mechs then trying to find some stealth armor locust hiding in a corner in a skirmish.

Like LRMs, Light Mechs have an outsized impact on lower tier play, and a very below average impact on upper level play. Mechs frequently walk around with 60+ point alpha strikes. A fully armoured stealth flea or piranha has no more than 30 leg armour. These mechs are in one shot territory. Shoot them.

Regarding your thoughts on weight class divisions; the match maker attempts to match teams by weight, so each team should have roughly the same weight as the other. It's one of the first parameters to go out the door when pops are low however. This game has not much more than 1000 active players at peak hours. Creating multiple matchmaking buckets to break up the queue is a giant no-no.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Forth: Size of maps. It is pretty simple actually - maps a WAY TO BIG. Which leads to gaps in front line, which leads to people moving forward for actual gameplay and not finding anyone to engage therefor nascarring around and creating all this mess. There is just not enough mechs on the map to create a frontline. Period. You can't teach people to hold the line if there is none. Especially considering previous point when all the mechs have WAY different speed because of tonnage. Based on the size of the maps and amount of light mechs i presume this game needs at least 20vs20 maybe even up to 25 or 30 players on one side to create frontlines and actual tactical combat. Or maps should be shrunk to the seize where 12 mechs of this composition will be actually able to saturate them and not to feel like a drop in the ocean leading to all other issues.

Couple things wrapped up in here. First, the maps, even the big ones, are actually not particularly big. What makes them feel bad is the game modes. I understand the thought process you are going through and I really don't think you are far off at all, I think you just aren't sure what it is that's bothering you about it. Believe me, its the game modes. They've been largely unchanged since beta. Badly placed objectives encourage players to waste large areas of the map, after all, why would you go out there. No respawns means that every time one team gets a kill, the other team also loses out. Losses quickly snowball, so grouping up and mostly avoiding enemy contact is the best way to insulate a team against early losses, or you run the risk of a "stomp", where one team scores a majority of kills before the other even has a chance to respond. The fact that every game mode can be ended just by killing the other team and ignoring the objective means literally every match will just play out as some flavour of skirmish. We actually have excellent maps, at best, they play out just ok with the game modes we have. Certainly this game could do better.

Edited by pbiggz, 27 October 2021 - 10:26 AM.

[Curccu]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

First: Headshots. I understand that it is lore accurate but ffs can you balance them out? Is it that hard to not make them the part of the game. Where is the fun in both getting headshotted and getting a random kill that you will not even get damage from?

You should get headshotted once every 500 to 1000 game (This even might rise odds a bit but not much because you are still in tier4.) or so unless you got habit of standing still and stare into enemy mechs barrels for a while, and the one that gets headshot gets damage from it unless you strip armor from head there should be

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Second: LRM. I mean i get it - lore but man. WHY CAN'T WE AT LEAST BE ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND BUILDINGS? This is more idiotic then artillery in WoT. And they are called all the censored words there - i presume here also. Is it that hard to balance them? Also there is almost none tall enough obstacles to hide behind. And i don't care about lore - this is zero fun and a lot of bad experiences.

Yeah lurms can be pain in the *** when in too open area but buildings do block them you just gotta be on opposite side of the building than shooter... if multiple shooters from many directions, then it can get tricky.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Third: Close combat vs light Mechs. Should i explain why it is pure cancer especially if your team doesn't pay attention? You don't even need o reinvent the wheel - in old MW were divisions so those cancer shitheads on their piranhas can go kill each other. Why do we have to deal with that? Is it that hard to make mixed divisions with like light+med, med+heavy and heavy+assault. Will be much more enjoyable to fight similar tonnage mechs then trying to find some stealth armor locust hiding in a corner in a skirmish.

There is very fresh thread in here forums how to kill piranhas and other lights die about same way... not that hard and there shouldn't be many if any skilled light mech pilots in tier4. Reporting that locust pilot is correct way to deal those s***heads.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Forth: Size of maps. It is pretty simple actually - maps a WAY TO BIG. Which leads to gaps in front line, which leads to people moving forward for actual gameplay and not finding anyone to engage therefor nascarring around and creating all this mess. There is just not enough mechs on the map to create a frontline. Period. You can't teach people to hold the line if there is none. Especially considering previous point when all the mechs have WAY different speed because of tonnage. Based on the size of the maps and amount of light mechs i presume this game needs at least 20vs20 maybe even up to 25 or 30 players on one side to create frontlines and actual tactical combat. Or maps should be shrunk to the seize where 12 mechs of this composition will be actually able to saturate them and not to feel like a drop in the ocean leading to all other issues.

Nascar works fine in 200x200m map, nothing to do with map size it just needs some center column or something that people can run around.
+ usually (unless it's conquest and someone actually starts playing objective) games are played within always same 20-30% of the map, usually pretty much center of those --> nascar.

[martian]

Greetings!

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

<I played WoT a lot more then 25k matches with 60% winrate. Played some MW5 and decided to give this game a try. Made it to tier 4 in a week and well it is a pile of rotting **** so far.

Thank you for your valuable opinion.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

First: Headshots. I understand that it is lore accurate but ffs can you balance them out? Is it that hard to not make them the part of the game. Where is the fun in both getting headshotted and getting a random kill that you will not even get damage from?

Well, it is not the wisest thing to stand still or attempt to outstare some twin-Gauss 'Mechs such as the Fafnir. Some 'Mech movement or torso twisting works wonders.

On the other hand, the higher you move in Tiers, the more difficult for you will be to achieve those headshots.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Second: LRM. I mean i get it - lore but man. WHY CAN'T WE AT LEAST BE ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND BUILDINGS? This is more idiotic then artillery in WoT. And they are called all the censored words there - i presume here also. Is it that hard to balance them? Also there is almost none tall enough obstacles to hide behind. And i don't care about lore - this is zero fun and a lot of bad experiences.

Sure, sometimes you can be caught in the open - that happens. However, in my experience there is almost always some cover nearby.

And of course, there are many tactical and technical counters to LRMs: ECM, AMS, moving behind cover, shooting down UAVs, etc.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Third: Close combat vs light Mechs. Should i explain why it is pure cancer especially if your team doesn't pay attention? You don't even need o reinvent the wheel - in old MW were divisions so those cancer shitheads on their piranhas can go kill each other. Why do we have to deal with that? Is it that hard to make mixed divisions with like light+med, med+heavy and heavy+assault.

Getting caught too often by some light 'Mechs? Use more rear torso armor and pay more attention.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Will be much more enjoyable to fight similar tonnage mechs then trying to find some stealth armor locust hiding in a corner in a skirmish.

Vote for other game modes such as Assault, Domination, Incursion or Conquest - all theses game modes can be brought to an end quite quickly.

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Forth: Size of maps. It is pretty simple actually - maps a WAY TO BIG. Which leads to gaps in front line, which leads to people moving forward for actual gameplay and not finding anyone to engage therefor nascarring around and creating all this mess.
There is just not enough mechs on the map to create a frontline. Period. You can't teach people to hold the line if there is none. Especially considering previous point when all the mechs have WAY different speed because of tonnage. Based on the size of the maps and amount of light mechs i presume this game needs at least 20vs20 maybe even up to 25 or 30 players on one side to create frontlines and actual tactical combat. Or maps should be shrunk to the seize where 12 mechs of this composition will be actually able to saturate them and not to feel like a drop in the ocean leading to all other issues.

There are other strategies than just "holding the line", you know.

Instead of being angry, perhaps you should adapt to the MWO reality

P.S. Almost forgot: There is a special game mode called "Solaris 7" that takes place on a half dozen of very small maps. I think that you will like it - or maybe not.

Anyway, should you need assistance, ask in this section: New Player Help

[Capt Deadpool]

Thanks for posting the feedback, Pine. We have some experienced players that are contributing to balance changes who read these forums and I am sure they will read your thoughts.

I recently talked to Dario about my suspicions that Tier 3 lights being the absolute bane of cadets/Tier 5 players, while at the same time being under performing compared to other classes when they get into the higher tiers. We even get more experienced players sometimes saying they have difficulty shooting lights. It is a difficult problem to solve other than preventing Tier 3 pilots in lights dropping with Tier 5 players. In the meantime, weapons that are effective for new players against lights: streaks (take a TAG), SRMs, small and micro pulse lasers, IS medium pulse lasers, LBX cannons. Try to mount weapons in your arms instead of torsos to help with tracking.

As for LRMs, they can indeed be extremely annoying in weekends, during events, and at lower tier levels where you may be facing multiple LRM boats on the other team. I would agree that the present tuning of their arc is a bit off as many times when it looks like you should be safe behind terrain features and buildings that rise higher than your mech, you are actually still exposed. This can definitely be frustrating for newer players. Mechs that can equip ECM, Radar Deprivation nodes in the sensor skill tree, and equipping AMS will help you.

Headshots are not really much of an issue; you probably got very unlucky with a couple. Newer players should probably keep at least 8-10 armor there to prevent you from getting headshotted by artillery.

Interesting perspective on maps from a WOT player, a game that I have never played. And part of what induces Nascar is indeed the discrepency between mech speeds and the slower ones attempting futiley to keep up with the faster ones. Interesting to hear that this is a non-issue in WOT. I would recommend newer players playing something with a max speed of at least 80kPH to be able to more easily keep up with Nascar. Keep your eye on your mini map and when you realize you are out of position, something faster will allow you to cover up your mistake more easily.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 27 October 2021 - 10:57 AM.

[pbiggz]

RickySpanish, on 27 October 2021 - 10:51 AM, said:

[redacted]

Leave the yorkies alone you psychopath!

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 01 November 2021 - 10:20 PM.
quote clean-up

[martian]

pbiggz, on 27 October 2021 - 10:56 AM, said:

Leave the yorkies alone you psychopath!

I love them with ketchup!

[Valdarion Silarius]

1. Headshots are hard to pull off. The only think I can advise is making sure you run at max 18 head armor and play mechs with small head hitboxes.

2. You can hide behind buildings. Stop standing out of cover out in the open and utilize mechs that have anti-LRM properties like ECM, AMS, etc. LRM's can be annoying but are not the problem.

3. Fighting strictly only similar tonnage mech will kill this game quicker than anything else. Segregation of weight classes is a very bad idea.

4. Map size is fine. Even in mechs that go 48 kph can still keep up with their teams. If you do not like bigger maps, vote for the classic ones when they pop up in QP. Also study the maps so that you know how to position it properly.

[Andrewlik]

Ahh, this thread reminds me of my days on the WoT forums...
OP Complaining about nonsense and everyone else saying its "its not that bad calm down"

1. Headshots are hard to pull off. They don't happen regularly.
2. Yes you can hide against buildings - its done all the time. Additionally, you put an AMS on your mech to reduce missile damage as well as spec into radar deprivation to break locks easier.
3. Stay with the group, lead your shots. and situational awareness above all. Lights can only hurt you if you don't see them coming (which to be fair, some have ECM, but you still have visual confirmation to go by.)
4. This is just straight up false - true, some people run ahead of the pack and get themselves killed, that is true. But overall MWO teams stick together and create firing lines FAR better than WOT's. Additionally, if you're being left behind, you can turn on comms and ask to group up. Sometimes they pay attention

Edited by Andrewlik, 27 October 2021 - 11:27 AM.

[pinetemplar]

The level of ignorance is truly amassing LOL. I wonder how much does it help with player retention? Anyway. Just drop 30 mechs on each side on your test servers for a day and you will be mindblown.

[pinetemplar]

Capt Deadpool, on 27 October 2021 - 10:50 AM, said:

Thanks for posting the feedback, Pine. We have some experienced players that are contributing to balance changes who read these forums and I am sure they will read your thoughts.

See the problem with "experienced players" is they are well adapted to the current state of events and they definitely wouldn't think outside of the box.

[pattonesque]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The level of ignorance is truly amassing LOL. I wonder how much does it help with player retention? Anyway. Just drop 30 mechs on each side on your test servers for a day and you will be mindblown.

There’s been some good advice in this thread regarding your specific issues and if you follow it you’ll probably do way better. Your headshot problem happens so rarely that it’s something very few people consider, to the point where a lot of top tier builds strip head armor for extra tonnage. LRMs are an issue with a number of easy solutions, and light mechs are way less powerful than a new player perceives. By match score and w/l ratio they are the *lowest performing class in the game.*

That being said this game’s NPE is not great and hopefully in 2022 there can be internal ways to address that. Teaching new players how to combat different weapons systems like LRMs in the academy could be a start

[Andrewlik]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The level of ignorance is truly amassing LOL. I wonder how much does it help with player retention? Anyway. Just drop 30 mechs on each side on your test servers for a day and you will be mindblown.

uh, about that
we don't have test servers XD

[D A T A]

I agree with this dude 120%

[pattonesque]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

See the problem with "experienced players" is they are well adapted to the current state of events and they definitely wouldn't think outside of the box.

I'm not sure what this means exactly but the folks doing the balance changes have a publicly-listed discord with a feedback channel where you can post your ideas up for discussion

[RickySpanish]

Andrewlik, on 27 October 2021 - 11:52 AM, said:

uh, about that
we don't have test servers XD

Ssshh! How are we supposed to trick new players into staying if they find out the whole show is held together by fishing wire and Kyle the intern?

[martian]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The level of ignorance is truly amassing LOL.

You are absolutely right. We are all a bunch of ignorants.

And now, do you have any particular question or problem that you would like us to help you with? LRMs? Defence against light 'Mechs? MWO tactics and strategy? Something else?

[Tarl Cabot]

Andrewlik, on 27 October 2021 - 11:52 AM, said:

uh, about that
we don't have test servers XD

Too bad the private matches are restricted to a max of 12 vs 12... I would like to see it upped to at least 15 vs 15 (Clan vs Clan ) or 16 vs 16 max (Comstar vs Comstar/Blakists) ... just saying.. /snickers..!!

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 October 2021 - 12:03 PM.

[PurplePuke]

Tough game at first. Two choices:

1. Go on forums and angry-whine about how dumb it is.
2. Try to get better, maybe by asking polite questions of experience players.

Good luck with your chosen path.

[Scout Derek]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

See the problem with "experienced players" is they are well adapted to the current state of events and they definitely wouldn't think outside of the box.

Not true, but you're entitled to your own opinions.