629 replies to this topic

[Michael Abt]

DaZur, on 22 December 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

9+ years I've been playing...

And I JUST started piloting lights (and light mediums). I've taken a beating learning how to pilot them but now they're my most proleptic class...

Old dogs DO learn new tricks apparently!

It goes both ways. I rarely pilot assaults, and pushing through the enemy line doesn't quite work as smooth as in my light.

Edited by Michael Abt, 22 December 2021 - 01:19 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

It took me 9 hours of playing in a light to have a "pretty good" match. This is medicore damage and score for assaults barfing out 50-60 alphas.

[ScrapIron Prime]

ThreeStooges, on 22 December 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

It took me 9 hours of playing in a light to have a "pretty good" match. This is medicore damage and score for assaults barfing out 50-60 alphas.

Did that total include 2 arty strikes? I've never broken 800 in a light mech without Arty. Heck, I have a hard time hitting 500 in a Jenner at all, so great job!

[Oh My God Chandler Bing]

What's funny is I got my Ace of Spades in an Assault, by killing Lights. I don't think Assault Mechs are as hard up as people say they are.

[ThreeStooges]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 December 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

Did that total include 2 arty strikes? I've never broken 800 in a light mech without Arty. Heck, I have a hard time hitting 500 in a Jenner at all, so great job!

No strikes. I really don't use them. I do use uavs a ton though since they are so cheap you can just auto fill it. jenners are crap lights no matter how I skill them. They have such horrible size and hit boxes I do a lot better in the lct and rvn. I was using spls and srm4s with the 4s on chain fire. The lasers in one group slot. Can't really do weapon groups when your mouse only has two buttons and a scrool wheel.

My better matches in lights are 300-500. 200-300 is average with one kill for me. 300 and more is one of those "great" matches.

[ThreeStooges]

Oh My God Chandler Bing, on 22 December 2021 - 03:22 PM, said:

What's funny is I got my Ace of Spades in an Assault, by killing Lights. I don't think Assault Mechs are as hard up as people say they are.

My brother got ace of spades with his lct-1e spl build but that was before all the ecm and power creep. He quit the game because of all the balance issues. Jenners use to be his go to until the 20ts can in and out did the jenners along with that bs rescale that made jenners so easy to shoot. I haven't got ace in anything due to all the ecm and dual hgr and er ppc laser spam the meta is now thanks to the map re-skins.

[pbiggz]

ThreeStooges, on 22 December 2021 - 04:38 PM, said:

My brother got ace of spades with his lct-1e spl build but that was before all the ecm and power creep. He quit the game because of all the balance issues. Jenners use to be his go to until the 20ts can in and out did the jenners along with that bs rescale that made jenners so easy to shoot. I haven't got ace in anything due to all the ecm and dual hgr and er ppc laser spam the meta is now thanks to the map re-skins.

Realistically I think jenners probably had pretty **** hitboxes even back in the old days, but lower alpha strikes and significantly worse hit detection made funky things possible. An 86kph hunchy was considered fast once upon a time.

The 25 ton stealth mechs are certainly the hardest to hit, but a well piloted urbanmech is criminally underappreciated and armed better than some medium mechs. Firestarters went from irrelevant to formidable. I don't think its fair to say the 30-35 tonners are irrelevant, though I will agree with you that the rescale made many of them useless for a long time, and some (like the jenner) have yet to recover from that.

[martian]

ThreeStooges, on 22 December 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

It took me 9 hours of playing in a light to have a "pretty good" match. This is medicore damage and score for assaults barfing out 50-60 alphas.

Could you post the Match Summary Team table, please? I would like to see how the other players fared.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 22 December 2021 - 07:03 PM, said:

Realistically I think jenners probably had pretty **** hitboxes even back in the old days, but lower alpha strikes and significantly worse hit detection made funky things possible. An 86kph hunchy was considered fast once upon a time.

Jenners were ok to good'ish before rescale, after that they are just CT with legs.

[Sjorpha]

I wish people would stop posting screenshots as if it means anything.

There is enough variance and luck in this game that both good and bad players who have played a while will have select matches with all kinds of very high or very low performances in all kinds of mechs. Those screens show next to nothing about you and even less about general questions like the balance between weight classes.

They can be used for bragging when you get extremely high performances but that's all they are good for really, and tbh they aren't that good for that either because sometimes you just luck out and are allowed to farm a high score which doesn't necessarily say anothing about your skill. Hard fought matches with high level of play across the teams on both sides normally don't yield high scores because it will be evenly spread, and yet those are the most skill intensive matches you can have.

There are public stats on performance for weight classes and that's the only relevant data in a discussion about weight class balance. That data clearly shows lights are the weakest class and assaults are the strongest.

There are public stats about your personal performance over time and that's the only relevant data about how good you are. And those stats show that 99% of people who complain about lights are bad at the game, and not only that but not even their own stats support their statements as pretty much all of them perform their best in assaults and their worst in lights.

The facts on the topic are public and indisputable, there is nothing to debate really.

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 December 2021 - 03:20 AM.

[DaZur]

Sjorpha, on 23 December 2021 - 03:08 AM, said:

There are public stats about your personal performance over time and that's the only relevant data about how good you are. And those stats show that 99% of people who complain about lights are bad at the game, and not only that but not even their own stats support their statements as pretty much all of them perform their best in assaults and their worst in lights.

The facts on the topic are public and indisputable, there is nothing to debate really.

Yes and no... Not arguing whether lights are too strong, Heavier classes historically are more dominant than lights.

That said, being the dominant weight classes also influences statistical numbers... i.e. more assaults and heavies piloted, the more weighted their statistical averages manifest.

Edited by DaZur, 23 December 2021 - 05:58 AM.

[Michael Abt]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 December 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

Did that total include 2 arty strikes? I've never broken 800 in a light mech without Arty. Heck, I have a hard time hitting 500 in a Jenner at all, so great job!

In my Jenner Oxide i do achieve good results.

What is noticable is that since the PSR changes moving forward in tiers with a light is much more difficult. It makes sense, since you are now competing against better performing weight classes.


Wasn't a rescale planned for Q4? Was that pushed back? Is it being worked on at all?

[Remington1911]

I just left a game where I put an entire burst of 2 large lasers and 4 med lasers into a locust and watched it run away. He was just standing there hammering on a lance mate.....machine guns a-blasting. He never moved and I held steady till the burst ended....it did nothing to him, not one bother. He then came after me, machine guns a-blasting.....his heavy friends finally rounded the corner just in time for the light to finish me off.

This was my last battle. And I agree the light mechs are very broken. First off name one other ballistic weapon in the game that is an automatic that does not jam. Machineguns never jam.....ever. This is pure crap. Hell the UAC is lucky to get two savos out without a jam, but the MG.....8k rounds no problem just hold down the trigger. I have done it.

I think without a doubt the light mech is the single most broken thing in the game.....they are fun to play sure because they are so hard to hit and when you do hit them you take so little damage.

As to not turn this into a total ***** post I suggest some changes.

1) They should be thinner, this is the name of the game with them, yes scout, yes be hard to hit, but when you do tag one you should really cripple it....this does not happen and everyone that has played this game knows it can take 3-4 med/heavy/assault to take down one light. That is broken.

2) MG's should jam, or at least have X-rounds in a belt and they should have to disengage for several seconds to reload that belt.

3) Stealth, if any mech is within X-meters of a mech with Beagle it should become targetable for all mechs within that X meters. I suggest 120. So if you are within 120 meters of a mech with beagle and an enemy light is within that same 120 it should be lockable.

I don't think this would take too much away from them, as they sit now they are out of control.

The way I see it is a light is the eyes of the force, med should be the main body and have a good chance at a cripple on an enemy LT. The Assaults should be very vulnerable to the LT and rely on the Med's for screening. Heavy should be hard on the Med.

Take it for what it is worth, I have not been here that long, but feel long enough to make suggestions from someone that is not entrenched in the game.

As it sits it is not healthy.3

[pbiggz]

what was your ping

[Blood Rose]

I had a game last night in my Flea where I got onto the rear of an enemy cyclops and just ate through his armour and ripped into his CT structure. Despite his 2 AC20's being basically certain death if they hit me he never once made an attempt to turn and engage me.
Lights really are OP compared to Assaults... So long as the Assault players let them be.
And as a side note, I didnt get the kill. A friendly gaussboat did.

[Remington1911]

pbiggz, on 23 December 2021 - 12:39 PM, said:

what was your ping

If the question was directed at me, usually on the US server it is around 55-60, Europe 150-ish.

[Blood Rose]

<p>

Remington1911, on 23 December 2021 - 12:25 PM, said:

I just left a game where I put an entire burst of 2 large lasers and 4 med lasers into a locust and watched it run away.

</p>
<p>Well RIP his armour and some of his structure then. He will run, but not for long. Assuming your not just making this up or exaggerating then he must have had max armour on his legs and they must have been untouched. Your alpha is 36 points, so he must have lost all his leg armour and been on orange/red structure.</p>
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<p>He was just standing there hammering on a lance mate.....machine guns a-blasting.

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<p>Your lancemate is a tard for not engaging him</p>
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<p>He never moved and I held steady till the burst ended....it did nothing to him, not one bother.

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<p>I think you will find it really screwed him over, perhaps use R next time. One more his and its likely he would be legged.</p>
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<p>He then came after me, machine guns a-blasting.....

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<p>And this is where you panicked and failed to follow up, correct?</p>
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<p>his heavy friends finally rounded the corner just in time for the light to finish me off.

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<p>So it was the <em>heavies</em> that actually killed you and your friend, gotcha.</p>
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<p>This was my last battle.

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<p>'K then, bye.</p>
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<p>And I agree the light mechs are very broken.

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<p>Judging by the stats, yes. The sheer number of semi demolished wrecks is astounding.</p>
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<p>First off name one other ballistic weapon in the game that is an automatic that does not jam.

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<p>AC2?</p>
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<p>Machineguns never jam.....ever. This is pure crap. Hell the UAC is lucky to get two savos out without a jam, but the MG.....8k rounds no problem just hold down the trigger.

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<p>It also has a near point blank range and does a whopping 1 damage point per second. Your LL does 8 (10 if clan). RAC's do 6 or 10 depending. Its a weapon that relies purely on face time and the fireing mech exposing itself.</p>
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<p>I have done it.

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<p>So have I. Didnt do much unless structure was exposed. Mainly it serves as agro and a means to make newbie pilots panic and wet themselves in fear.</p>
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<p>I think without a doubt the light mech is the single most broken thing in the game.....

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<p>The salvage yards certainly agree with you. They dont even buy Light wrecks at cost now, too many of them.</p>
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<p>they are fun to play sure

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<p>More frustrating really, getting 209 damage in my Locust earlier was a highlight for me and it took everything I had.</p>
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<p>because they are so hard to hit

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<p>Try aiming. Welcome to Battletech/Mechwarrior, its not your usual point-and-click experience. </p>
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<p>and when you do hit them you take so little damage.

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<p>As an ex-dedicated Light pilot who still dabbles in the, no they dont. They just dont disintegrate under the withering glance of the nearest heavy/assault any more and for some reason thats seen as 'op' by some. Coincidentally usually the same some who pilot Assault and Heavy chassis near exclusively but still somehow manage to have a negative KDR score.</p>
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<p>As to not turn this into a total ***** post

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<p>Too late</p>
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<p>I suggest some changes.

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<p>Ooh boy here we go</p>
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<p>1) They should be thinner, this is the name of the game with them, yes scout, yes be hard to hit, but when you do tag one you should really cripple it....

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<p>Sooo... As they are now but slightly harder to hit? Sure, ill take that.</p>
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<p>this does not happen and everyone that has played this game knows it

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<p>Again, try aiming, because I assure you it does. One good hit on me when I make a pass and im hurting all over.</p>
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<p>can take 3-4 med/heavy/assault to take down one light.

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<p>Or one Assault/Heavy with a decent alpha and good aim. Or hell, a semi decent loadout, semi decent aim, thats enough to drive a Light off. Most of the time.</p>
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<p>That is broken.

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<p>Translate: &quot;Abloobloobloo I cant just vaporise Light mechs my grazing them any more its not fair&quot;</p>
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<p>2) MG's should jam, or at least have X-rounds in a belt and they should have to disengage for several seconds to reload that belt.

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<p>Lolnope, see my above comment about the facetime issue. If a Light or indeed any MG armed Mech of 45 tons or less does serious damage with its MG battery then its your fault, you <em>let</em> them have the facetime they needed to deal that damage. Try shooting them next time.</p>
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<p>3) Stealth, if any mech is within X-meters of a mech with Beagle it should become targetable for all mechs within that X meters. I suggest 120. So if you are within 120 meters of a mech with beagle and an enemy light is within that same 120 it should be lockable.

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<p>Ahh right, so &quot;as soon as a Light Mech thats sacrificed payload weight and heat management to be slightly harder to delete gets within weapons range it should automatically lose the advantages it sacrificed so much to gain&quot;</p>
<p>That about right?</p>
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<p>I don't think this would take too much away from them,

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<p>Try piloting a Light for a bit. Taking <em>anything</em> away from Lights is too much. They dont have anything too take in the first place.</p>
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<p>as they sit now they are out of control.

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<p>Learn to point-click better.</p>
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<p>The way I see it is a light is the eyes of the force,

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<p><em>some</em> are, traditionally. Others, like the Jenner and Javelin, are built to be strikers and hammer the enemies flanks and others like the Panther and Commando are built to provide fire support for the heavier units. Sadly this is MWO and the rewards for scouting are next to none. Capture time is too long for that to be a viable option and All objectives are fixed and known and the maps are not procedurally generated, so recon serves a very limited purpose. And besides, the primary way to gain rewards is to do damage and kill enemy units, so that is what most Lights are built to do.</p>
<p>Or should the dirty peasants just not play the game and sit at the sidelines waiting to be murdered by whomevers heavy units win?</p>
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<p>med should be the main body and have a good chance at a cripple on an enemy LT.

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<p>SOME Mediums are Light hunters, others are essentially fat Light mechs. Others are pocket Heavies. Your point?</p>
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<p>The Assaults should be very vulnerable to the LT and rely on the Med's for screening.

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<p>So again, basically how things are at the moment?</p>
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<p>Heavy should be hard on the Med. Take it for what it is worth,

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<div>So, nothing? By the way, did you know that Battletech is frequently described as a Naval game but with mechs?</div>
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I have not been here that long,

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<p>I gathered.</p>
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but feel long enough to make suggestions from someone that is not entrenched in the game. As it sits it is not healthy.3

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<div>No. Just no. You are new, you dropped in with your super awesome brand new build and you got trounced on. Learn to aim, learn to position, hell just learn the game in general, and play a Light for a bit. Then come back.</div>
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[Der Geisterbaer]

Remington1911 said:

I just left a game where I put an entire burst of 2 large lasers and 4 med lasers into a locust and watched it run away. He was just standing there hammering on a lance mate.....machine guns a-blasting. He never moved and I held steady till the burst ended....it did nothing to him, not one bother.

Whatever went on there is not an indication of Lights being "broken" or "over-powered" because if that mech really stood perfectly still and your alpha didn't even scratch it, then you're talking some form of desync and/or lag.

Remington1911 said:

First off name one other ballistic weapon in the game that is an automatic that does not jam.

Gauss and any standard AC or LB-X ... and that doesn't mention those that MW:O hasn't implemented from its source material.

Remington1911 said:

Machineguns never jam.....ever.

Just like the ballistic weapons I just named and in full accordance to the lore and technological premises made by the fictional game universe called "Battletech".

Remington1911 said:

This is pure crap.

Nope.

Remington1911 said:

Hell the UAC is lucky to get two savos out without a jam, but the MG.....8k rounds no problem just hold down the trigger. I have done it.

And that's how it's supposed to be ~shrug~

Remington1911 said:

I think without a doubt the light mech is the single most broken thing in the game.....

~laugh~ And another one who rushes in with his opinion that conflicts with the realities of Light mech performance.

Remington1911 said:

they are fun to play sure because they are so hard to hit and when you do hit them you take so little damage.

Under normal circumstances they take exactly the same damage as any other weight class when they are actually hit. But the "hitting" part is the problem for most players because particularly the 20t to 25t Lights are indeed so agile and fast that what the attacker believes to be a "dead center hit" actually translates into damage spread over the entire mech as well as partial or even full dodges due to server authorative state rewind where the server decides that the mech wasn't actually in the exact position and/or as immobile as you as the attacker believed it to be when taking your shot.

Remington1911 said:

As to not turn this into a total ***** post I suggest some changes.

Sorry, but nothing you can suggest now will change anything about the nature of your post.

Remington1911 said:

1) They should be thinner,

You really want to make their hit box even smaller? That won't help with your aiming problems at all.

Remington1911 said:

this is the name of the game with them, yes scout, yes be hard to hit, but when you do tag one you should really cripple it....

Let's ignore the fact that there are Lights that are simply not suited for scouting and are neither fast nor super agile and be very honest: The 20t Light mechs you are primiarily referrring to there are pretty much instantly crippled if the attacker is good enough to actually hit them.

Remington1911 said:

this does not happen and everyone that has played this game knows it can take 3-4 med/heavy/assault to take down one light.

Nice variation of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Remington1911 said:

That is broken.

No it isn't ...

Remington1911 said:

2) MG's should jam, or at least have X-rounds in a belt and they should have to disengage for several seconds to reload that belt.

Given their range, their spread and general ineffectiveness unless boated with at least the equivalent of 6 standard machine guns and the lore of Battletech: No they absoultely should not

Remington1911 said:

3) Stealth, if any mech is within X-meters of a mech with Beagle it should become targetable for all mechs within that X meters. I suggest 120. So if you are within 120 meters of a mech with beagle and an enemy light is within that same 120 it should be lockable.

Now you're conflating your entire point with something that has nothing to do with Light mechs at all: The targeting limitations created by IS ECM capable mechs with stealth armor are not limited to Light mechs.

Remington1911 said:

I don't think this would take too much away from them, as they sit now they are out of control.

Ofc course, the least played weight class with the lowest (unmodified) match score average will certainly not suffer the slightest if your changes really were to be implemented ~laugh~

Remington1911 said:

Take it for what it is worth,

Sorry to say it but your word isn't worth much, not because ...

Remington1911 said:

I have not been here that long,

... you haven't been here "that long" but rather because you haven't actually presented anything of note and most of what you wrote is contradicted by actually availible statistics and / or was refuted over the course of the past 18 pages ... which you also don't give an indication of having fully read.

And to top it off ...

Remington1911 said:

but feel long enough to make suggestions from someone that is not entrenched in the game.

... you're now implying that others are "entrenched" in their thinking.

Bad form ...

Remington1911 said:

As it sits it is not healthy.3

Oh yes, the current situation is indeed not that entirely healthy ... but not in the sense you're saying but rather because Lights are at the low end of the actual food chain and you want to put them down even further based on your own anecdotal recounts of events, limited experience (according to your own admission and the join date on your account) and some vague ideas of balance that don't really account for the fact MW:O is at its core a team death match game where those roles you're advocating for don't actually exist.

TL;DR: Just shoot Lights like all the players in Tier 5 to Tier 3 that had zero problems killing me in my Light during my ongoing gaming session ...

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 23 December 2021 - 02:08 PM.

[Remington1911]

Blood Rose, on 23 December 2021 - 12:59 PM, said:

I had a game last night in my Flea where I got onto the rear of an enemy cyclops and just ate through his armour and ripped into his CT structure. Despite his 2 AC20's being basically certain death if they hit me he never once made an attempt to turn and engage me.
Lights really are OP compared to Assaults... So long as the Assault players let them be.
And as a side note, I didnt get the kill. A friendly gaussboat did.

On my flea every part of it has over 20 armor, I could take an ac20 hit and still run away...including a head shot. He likely did not turn around because he saw no point in it, you could dance around him and even if he could get a weapon on you it is not likely he would have hit and crippled you.

Now should he have had support, yea....would it have made you dead, not likely, if you flea is armored like mine, I could take hits from everything up to and including a heavy gauss rifle and still run away.....and this is the problem. Sure it is fun if you are in the LT, but for everyone else it flat sucks.

What I suggested would not take much away from the LT, it would make people be less brazen with them. As is they are not piloting them in a way that goes with the books, table top or anything else.....they are to be light scouting mechs, not able to stand toe to toe with even a med and walk away.....if they see anything past another LT they should run....as is they will make a charge dance around strip armor and if someone comes to help your target you might or might not disengage.....you know it for fact.

[Blood Rose]

Remington1911, on 23 December 2021 - 01:36 PM, said:

On my flea every part of it has over 20 armor, I could take an ac20 hit and still run away

1, well done you did what most light pilots do and applied armour
2, Yes you might be able to so long as he hits your CT and its not too damaged, but you sure as hell wont want or be able to take another
3, 2 AC20 hits together will end your Flea, and mine too.

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...including a head shot.

Since the armour doubling all mechs can take an AC20 to the head and live, so long as they didnt shave all the armour off.

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He likely did not turn around because he saw no point in it,

More fool him, I would have bugged out rather than face 2 AC20's in an enclosed environment.

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you could dance around him and even if he could get a weapon on you it is not likely he would have hit and crippled you.

A hit from ONE of the guns would have ripped me open and made me reconsider engaging, a hit from both together would have ended me. This is why Lights seem so OP to Assault/Heavy pilots, they dont engage or expect a casual half hearted burst to end the Light. Next time try pushing aggressively at the Light and actually making moves to engage him, it will scare him off. Also he should have had some medium lasers.

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Now should he have had support, yea....would it have made you dead,

It would have sent me running, or made me rethink ever engaging in the first place.

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not likely, if you flea is armored like mine, I could take hits from everything up to and including a heavy gauss rifle

Ahahaha what?! You might take A hit, but only if its A single hit from that one gun, and it will leave you ripped open. If it hits your rear your dead.

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and still run away.....and this is the problem.

I dont even... So a Light should just die?

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Sure it is fun if you are in the LT, but for everyone else it flat sucks.

Its terrifying as the Light because you know full well you just got hit by something big and the next time ti happens your in the ****.

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What I suggested would not take much away from the LT, it would make people be less brazen with them.

Less brazen? The hell are you smoking?!

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As is they are not piloting them in a way that goes with the books, table top or anything else.....

Because this is an arena game with limited scope for recon work AND you clearly dont play TT much as yoou would know about Jenners and Panthers if your did.

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they are to be light scouting mechs,

So they what... Run up, find the enemy then do nothing and get nothing? Because this game does not reward recon.

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not able to stand toe to toe with even a med and walk away

They quite literally cannot, unless the Medium pilot is straight up on the special needs list.

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.....if they see anything past another LT they should run....

Read the F. U. N. T. I. N, G. lore holy ****. There are a ton of chassis intended to engage heavier units, you are describing a small subset of Light units. And even then if those recon lights did they would do nothing but run and hide most of the game because Light units are rare.

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as is they will make a charge dance around strip armor and if someone comes to help your target you might or might not disengage.....you know it for fact.

I dont even....
Okay kid, im going to take pity on you
Light hits you and you cant out turn it
Back to the wall
Call for help
Shoot it
Mount some anti-light weapons (laser, pulse and LBX) just to be sure. SRM's sort of work too.
If the terrain is on your side or he tries to run, pursue him. Chase him down. Even if he gets away he is unlikely to come back for you any time soon. Nothing is scarier for a Light than a 60+ ton Mech gunning for them, especially if its an Assault.
Learn to aim
Shoot the gopnik with some big guns, twin AC20+ in the rear will kill any Light bar an Urbie, twin anything at any range will rip armour open and make Lights easier to kill later and more cautious.
Use your eyes and dont just rely on sensors.