629 replies to this topic

[SharDar]

Here is some data I got on two of my Piranhas. All of this is against non-moving targets and me standing still, firing at point blank range (60M). So, this represents a best-case scenario with these mechs. Using the Training Ground and selecting Canyon Network I got the following results.

Using my Piranha PIR-3 with 4 Heavy SML Laser and 10 ER Micro Laser:

• Centurion: 1 alpha strike in the back to kill
  
• Cataphract: 2 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Awesome: 3 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Cicada: 1 alpha strike
  
• Atlas: 2 alpha strikes
  
• Jenner: 1 alpha strike

Note: my alpha strikes take 3 seconds for complete cooldown.

In my Piranha PIR-1 with 12 MG and 3 ER SML Laser, I get the following:

• Centurion: 2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strikes in the back plus continuous MG
  
• Cataphract: 3 seconds to kill: 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG
  
• Awesome: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes and continuous MG fire
  
• Cicada: 1-2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire
  
• Atlas: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG fire
  
• Jenner: 1 second to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire

[DaZur]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 08:50 AM, said:

Here is some data I got on two of my Piranhas. All of this is against non-moving targets and me standing still, firing at point blank range (60M). So, this represents a best-case scenario with these mechs. Using the Training Ground and selecting Canyon Network I got the following results.

Using my Piranha PIR-3 with 4 Heavy SML Laser and 10 ER Micro Laser:

• Centurion: 1 alpha strike in the back to kill
  
• Cataphract: 2 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Awesome: 3 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Cicada: 1 alpha strike
  
• Atlas: 2 alpha strikes
  
• Jenner: 1 alpha strike

Note: my alpha strikes take 3 seconds for complete cooldown.


In my Piranha PIR-1 with 12 MG and 3 ER SML Laser, I get the following:

• Centurion: 2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strikes in the back plus continuous MG
  
• Cataphract: 3 seconds to kill: 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG
  
• Awesome: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes and continuous MG fire
  
• Cicada: 1-2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire
  
• Atlas: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG fire
  
• Jenner: 1 second to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire

Note that the targets in the training grounds is "default armor"... That aside, unless your target is an absolute Muppet, they are going to be moving, twisting shooting back... etc.

Real-world application I'd probably double if not triple the summary of your findings.

Still... As worse-case scenarios go... This data is staggering.

[Der Geisterbaer]

While there you are not presenting numbers that would appear to be "way off", there are some remarks and questions plus a request.

Questions first:

• How exactly did you meassure your kill times?
  
• How many skill nodes were used regarding laser duration?
  
• How many skill nodes were used regarding cooldown reduction?

Remarks:

SharDar said:

Here is some data I got on two of my Piranhas. All of this is against non-moving targets and me standing still, firing at point blank range (60M).

Also with zero latency and under local client authority (as opposed to non-zero latency and server authority during actual gameplay)

SharDar said:

So, this represents a best-case scenario with these mechs.

Actually it's not just "a best-case" scenario but rather "the ideal case" scenario within a special case environment.


Request:

For comparison purposes now please use a medium, then a heavy and then an assault mech - each with an as high as possible alpha if not the highest possible alpha - and do the same test. Then repeat the test once more with the chosen chassis now utilizing the loadout that represents the highest sustainable DPS instead of highest possible alpha.

[edit]
*******************

DaZur said:

Still... As worse-case scenarios go... This data is staggering.

Apart from some differences due to how the test was conducted I don't see anything in those numbers that would "stagger" me.
[/edit]

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 14 January 2022 - 09:50 AM.

[SharDar]

DaZur, on 14 January 2022 - 09:29 AM, said:

Note that the targets in the training grounds is "default armor"... That aside, unless your target is an absolute Muppet, they are going to be moving, twisting shooting back... etc.

Real-world application I'd probably double if not triple the summary of your findings.

Still... As worse-case scenarios go... This data is staggering.

Yes, this is default armor; but I think it's still higher armor values than most people are running in the back. The default Atlas AS7-D has 130 front and 28 rear on the center torso. In the videos I've been watching, it seems that people turn down the rear armor to increase the front armor. Sure, they almost certainly use skill points to increase the armor; so I don't know what a realistic value is to test against. Also, I don't know how I would increase the armor to do further testing.

[SharDar]

Der Geisterbaer, on 14 January 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

While there you are not presenting numbers that would appear to be "way off", there are some remarks and questions plus a request.

Questions first:

• How exactly did you meassure your kill times?
  
• How many skill nodes were used regarding laser duration?
  
• How many skill nodes were used regarding cooldown reduction?

Remarks:




Also with zero latency and under local client authority (as opposed to non-zero latency and server authority during actual gameplay)



Actually it's not just "a best-case" scenario but rather "the ideal case" scenario within a special case environment.


Request:

For comparison purposes now please use a medium, then a heavy and then an assault mech - each with an as high as possible alpha if not the highest possible alpha - and do the same test. Then repeat the test once more with the chosen chassis now utilizing the loadout that represents the highest sustainable DPS instead of highest possible alpha.

[edit]
*******************



Apart from some differences due to how the test was conducted I don't see anything in those numbers that would "stagger" me.
[/edit]

Nah, I think I've done plenty to add to this discussion and don't feel the need to do further testing. Anyone else can add whatever numbers they wish. I counted using "1 thousand, 2 thousand". No, not very precise. But sufficient. I'm not making a point one way or the other about lights being OP. I'm just trying to provide some data instead of the continued assertions.

I've got full skill points allocated for these mechs, and I'm guessing they are representative of what others have done. I have all of the laser duration nodes selected. I base my builds off of GrimMechs and the skills from watching Baradul. The numbers I posted are using the builds I run on those mechs. My play with these is very much about getting a shot and moving to cover. Standing and shooting until an enemy is dead is suicide, unless they are engaged with another mech. For my MG light mechs, I often play as a "battle buddy" or sidecar. I stick with an assault mech and use my firepower to amplify theirs.

[Curccu]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nah, I think I've done plenty to add to this discussion and don't feel the need to do further testing. Anyone else can add whatever numbers they wish. I counted using "1 thousand, 2 thousand". No, not very precise. But sufficient. I'm not making a point one way or the other about lights being OP. I'm just trying to provide some data instead of the continued assertions.

What is the merit of this testing? I mean it tells nothing new, everyone knows that piranha kills stationary target very quickly?
Same way someone could test how many alphas Pir-1 (default build without skilltree bonus hp as your test) back ct can take from any mech in the game or leg... 18hp back CT and 26 in a leg, there isn't many mechs in the game that doesn't alpha that amount if damage.
probably few stock IS lights cannot do that much dmg. Spider-5V is probably only mech in whole game that is unable to 1-shot that if build properly.

Pir is very definition of glass cannon... dies super easily, but has nasty punch.

[Der Geisterbaer]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nah, I think I've done plenty to add to this discussion and don't feel the need to do further testing.

And I think that you threw around some numbers without providing proper context ... luckily also without trying to actually draw conclusions.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

I counted using "1 thousand, 2 thousand". No, not very precise.

Indeed, not very precise.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

But sufficient.

Let's just agree to disagree there ... not so much because of the imprecise methodology for timekeeping but because of the also involved selection bias that makes it "insufficient" overall.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

I'm not making a point one way or the other about lights being OP. I'm just trying to provide some data instead of the continued assertions.

And I merely point out that this data is - for various reasons - flawed and as such must consider your attempt as "failed".

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

I've got full skill points allocated for these mechs, and I'm guessing they are representative of what others have done.

Immaterial to my questions.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

I have all of the laser duration nodes selected.

Which provides an answer to the second question and thus would partially allow to mathematically check your test results because knowlege about the amount of laser duration nodes involved also tells how long the timeperiod for "two alphas" ultimately is.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

I base my builds off of GrimMechs and the skills from watching Baradul. The numbers I posted are using the builds I run on those mechs.

Which also is almost immaterial to my questions again with the exception of now having the knowledge where I might or might not find the answer to the question about the number of cooldown nodes (=> Baradul videos) in order to get the other variable(s) that would be required to mathematically check time intervals for "two alphas".

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 11:33 AM, said:

My play with these is very much about getting a shot and moving to cover. Standing and shooting until an enemy is dead is suicide, unless they are engaged with another mech. For my MG light mechs, I often play as a "battle buddy" or sidecar. I stick with an assault mech and use my firepower to amplify theirs.

So not only was your testing incomplete (and thus your numbers serving little purpose) but you also acknowledge that your chosen scenario by itself cannot be considered representative by any means.

So now I do have to ask: What purpose did your numbers really serve in terms of "providing data instead of assertions"?

Sidenote: I have done what you did with a PIR-1 myself for prior incarncations of discussions like this and repeated the experiment several times. I even went through the trouble of recording the endeavour in order to be able to meassure kill times via editing software down to a 0.25 second precision but that didn't help with those other discussions either just like you haven't truly helped it now ... ultimately for the exact same reasons that I pointed out to you.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 14 January 2022 - 12:07 PM.

[SharDar]

I should note that my PIR-1 has an alpha strike of 15 with the 3 ER SML Lasers plus 12/second with the MGs.
My PIR-3 has an alpha strike of 50: 26 from the Heavy SML Lasers plus 24 from the ER Micro Lasers. So, one shotting some mechs in the back is a reality.

[pattonesque]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 12:09 PM, said:

I should note that my PIR-1 has an alpha strike of 15 with the 3 ER SML Lasers plus 12/second with the MGs.
My PIR-3 has an alpha strike of 50: 26 from the Heavy SML Lasers plus 24 from the ER Micro Lasers. So, one shotting some mechs in the back is a reality.

if you let a fragile, non-ECM, not particularly agile mech which is effective only at knife-fighting range into that range in your rear arc and let it get a full alpha or more off, that's a you problem

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 14 January 2022 - 12:22 PM, said:

if you let a fragile, non-ECM, not particularly agile mech which is effective only at knife-fighting range into that range in your rear arc and let it get a full alpha or more off, that's a you problem

Another reason I love seismic sensors. With 2 nodes, you get a blip from farther away than the optimal range of heavy small, ER micro, or micro pulse lasers.

[Der Geisterbaer]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 12:09 PM, said:

I should note that my PIR-1 has an alpha strike of 15 with the 3 ER SML Lasers plus 12/second with the MGs.

Now consider what your PIR-1 would do in your chosen scenario had you chosen 3 heavy small lasers instead.

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 12:09 PM, said:

My PIR-3 has an alpha strike of 50: 26 from the Heavy SML Lasers plus 24 from the ER Micro Lasers.

Now dare to think about a 53.1 PIR-2 with 3 heavy small lasers plus 12 micro pulse lasers with an alpha heat generation of below 50% even before any cooling skill nodes that will deliver this alpha twice in an overall shorter time than yours

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 12:09 PM, said:

So, one shotting some mechs in the back is a reality.

I would say that the theoretical possibility or "ideal case scenario" of that occuring was never doubted.

[SharDar]

pattonesque, on 14 January 2022 - 12:22 PM, said:

if you let a fragile, non-ECM, not particularly agile mech which is effective only at knife-fighting range into that range in your rear arc and let it get a full alpha or more off, that's a you problem

I think someone needs to switch to decaf. I have never said that this is how I play these mechs. I'm just showing what is possible in the best case scenario.I have not complained about these mechs or said they are OP. I don't have a problem. I play these mechs for fun and am comfortable with the risks they carry. If you have a problem with that, then that's a YOU problem. Oh, I guess I need to switch to decaf too!

[pattonesque]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think someone needs to switch to decaf. I have never said that this is how I play these mechs. I'm just showing what is possible in the best case scenario.I have not complained about these mechs or said they are OP. I don't have a problem. I play these mechs for fun and am comfortable with the risks they carry. If you have a problem with that, then that's a YOU problem. Oh, I guess I need to switch to decaf too!

it's more the royal "you"

[SharDar]

pattonesque, on 14 January 2022 - 01:40 PM, said:

it's more the royal "you"

Sorry! I misunderstood. I just don't like how contentious these discussions get. I'm a peaceful soul, me.

[pattonesque]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 03:49 PM, said:

Sorry! I misunderstood. I just don't like how contentious these discussions get. I'm a peaceful soul, me.

nah it's all good. I'm prickly on here so I get it

[Meep Meep]

In the current meta I gave up on knife fighter fishy and went for a ranged backstabber. Not as quick to kill but waaaay more survivable because you can backstab at ~300m.

Cipher for the cbill bonus or SuperFishy for the nice armor and weapon quirks.

You can drop a ton of ammo for another hvy med but its very rare for a mech to have more than 30 back armor and most have far less.

Edited by Meep Meep, 15 January 2022 - 12:14 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

it is as astonishing as it is kinda sad that this topic never seems to die..

[ThreeStooges]

Captain Caveman DE, on 15 January 2022 - 06:43 AM, said:

it is as astonishing as it is kinda sad that this topic never seems to die..

I find it funny the last two pages have been about the two most meta clan lights with their 50-53 alpha in 4 seconds etc. Now if any IS light could do that all these "op" threads might be worth taking a tad more serious. It's been years since any one made an op light thread about any is light mech.

If fle/lcts/rvns didn't have the stealth option they'd never be mentioned in any recent light mech thread. Anyway pirs op must nerff ALL lights mechs mentality continues. Instead of nerfing the specific light mech variants as pgi is one of the most incompetent developers I've ever seen since the c64. Even atari knew they ****** up with e.t.

[pattonesque]

The non-stealth SPL/SL MASC Flea is one of the best light mechs in the game

[Darian DelFord]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 08:50 AM, said:

Here is some data I got on two of my Piranhas. All of this is against non-moving targets and me standing still, firing at point blank range (60M). So, this represents a best-case scenario with these mechs. Using the Training Ground and selecting Canyon Network I got the following results.

Using my Piranha PIR-3 with 4 Heavy SML Laser and 10 ER Micro Laser:

• Centurion: 1 alpha strike in the back to kill
  
• Cataphract: 2 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Awesome: 3 alpha strikes in the back to kill
  
• Cicada: 1 alpha strike
  
• Atlas: 2 alpha strikes
  
• Jenner: 1 alpha strike

Note: my alpha strikes take 3 seconds for complete cooldown.


In my Piranha PIR-1 with 12 MG and 3 ER SML Laser, I get the following:

• Centurion: 2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strikes in the back plus continuous MG
  
• Cataphract: 3 seconds to kill: 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG
  
• Awesome: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes and continuous MG fire
  
• Cicada: 1-2 seconds to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire
  
• Atlas: 4 seconds to kill, 2 alpha strikes plus continuous MG fire
  
• Jenner: 1 second to kill, 1 alpha strike plus continuous MG fire

This just in.......

Darian was just taken out in his flea with one shot with an estimated 70ish PPFLD shot.......

I think assaults are a problem.