629 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

From my understanding of it (and I could be misunderstanding), the Cauldron is only talking about buffing equipment health on a select set of big guns. It's not an across-the-board buff for equipment health. Most other equipment and weapons will retain their current health values.

The goal is to increase the health of certain big guns (e.g., AC20) so as to raise it above the threshold of being one-shot by stuff like a single PPC rolling a triple-crit. This will have the knock-on effect of slightly increasing the average amount of time it would take MGs to crit out a big gun, but that's more of a knock-on side-effect, not the goal, and if need be, MG crit damage and probability can be revisited.

[Gagis]

For mechs like MG lights, component health also isn't much of an issue. They seek to destroy their targets fast enough the pilot usually doesn't know if some weapons were crit before the component was lost.

Where component health matters is in long range trading where relatively little damage may be hitting structure and a big weapon being crit may dramatically reduce the amount of returning fire.

Edited by Gagis, 26 January 2022 - 12:31 AM.

[Meep Meep]

YueFei, on 25 January 2022 - 11:41 PM, said:

From my understanding of it (and I could be misunderstanding), the Cauldron is only talking about buffing equipment health on a select set of big guns. It's not an across-the-board buff for equipment health. Most other equipment and weapons will retain their current health values.

The goal is to increase the health of certain big guns (e.g., AC20) so as to raise it above the threshold of being one-shot by stuff like a single PPC rolling a triple-crit. This will have the knock-on effect of slightly increasing the average amount of time it would take MGs to crit out a big gun, but that's more of a knock-on side-effect, not the goal, and if need be, MG crit damage and probability can be revisited.

Ah well that makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

From a light players perspective I wouldn't mind a further refining of the different mg class so they are more role dependent.

Lmg: Very high crit chance/structure damage but pathetic damage to armor even when boating.

Mg: Balance of both.

Hmg: Very low crit chance/structure damage but great damage to armor especially when boating.

Possibly add in a heat penalty to hmg to balance so you don't get buzzsaw pir and myst lynx.

Edited by Meep Meep, 26 January 2022 - 12:45 AM.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2022 - 12:34 AM, said:

Ah well that makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

From a light players perspective I wouldn't mind a further refining of the different mg class so they are more role dependent.

Lmg: Very high crit chance/structure damage but pathetic damage to armor even when boating.

Mg: Balance of both.

Hmg: Very low crit chance/structure damage but great damage to armor especially when boating.

Possibly add in a heat penalty to hmg to balance so you don't get buzzsaw pir and myst lynx.

LMG were like that at some point but crit was nerfed heaaavily at some point, you literally just threw short burst with MLX open component and all items were gone from that section. Assault pilots didn't like it and enough QQ --> PGI nerfed as was standard action back in the age of Chris.

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 26 January 2022 - 12:59 AM, said:

LMG were like that at some point but crit was nerfed heaaavily at some point, you literally just threw short burst with MLX open component and all items were gone from that section. Assault pilots didn't like it and enough QQ --> PGI nerfed as was standard action back in the age of Chris.

Well maybe a narrower difference in crits/structure but at least something more than range and damage.

[Der Geisterbaer]

YueFei, on 25 January 2022 - 11:41 PM, said:

From my understanding of it (and I could be misunderstanding), the Cauldron is only talking about buffing equipment health on a select set of big guns. It's not an across-the-board buff for equipment health. Most other equipment and weapons will retain their current health values.

The goal is to increase the health of certain big guns (e.g., AC20) so as to raise it above the threshold of being one-shot by stuff like a single PPC rolling a triple-crit. This will have the knock-on effect of slightly increasing the average amount of time it would take MGs to crit out a big gun, but that's more of a knock-on side-effect, not the goal, and if need be, MG crit damage and probability can be revisited.

So you're saying that it's not so much a change of crit chance against (main) weapons from machine guns but rather a general boost to weapon health on (select) larger weapon systems. That's a very different beast but I'm not too sure about the ramifications in terms of what actually constitutes a "main weapon" and how such a change is bound to once more favour the already strongest weight classes that are able to carry more than one of those larger weapons. ~shrug~

[MW Waldorf Statler]

we trying to balance a Willy Jeep , a Armored Humvee against Abrams and Maus tanks

[YueFei]

Meep Meep, on 26 January 2022 - 12:34 AM, said:

Ah well that makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

From a light players perspective I wouldn't mind a further refining of the different mg class so they are more role dependent.

Lmg: Very high crit chance/structure damage but pathetic damage to armor even when boating.

Mg: Balance of both.

Hmg: Very low crit chance/structure damage but great damage to armor especially when boating.

Possibly add in a heat penalty to hmg to balance so you don't get buzzsaw pir and myst lynx.

Just to be clear, I am not in the Cauldron. It's just my memory of what I read on the MWO Discord Server, in the Cauldron Feedback channel.

Your suggestion on refining the different MG classes can be posted in the MWO Discord as well. I think it's more likely to get feedback there. I don't really have an well-informed opinion on your ideas because I never use MGs of any kind, but at first glance your concept might be worth exploring.

But one thing I want to bring up: I believe (but I could be wrong) that at the moment the crit damage of MGs is not affected by range fall-off? Which means as long as you aren't outside of the maximum range of an MG (e.g., a HMG), even if you're so far out that it does like 0.000001 damage, if it hits structure it has the potential to do full maximum crit damage.

I think this is hard-wired into the game mechanics, and cannot be changed by simple XML change, and at the moment the Cauldron is limited to only XML changes. So keep that in mind when making suggestions, as the scope of changes they can make is limited.

Der Geisterbaer, on 26 January 2022 - 01:50 AM, said:

So you're saying that it's not so much a change of crit chance against (main) weapons from machine guns but rather a general boost to weapon health on (select) larger weapon systems. That's a very different beast but I'm not too sure about the ramifications in terms of what actually constitutes a "main weapon" and how such a change is bound to once more favour the already strongest weight classes that are able to carry more than one of those larger weapons. ~shrug~

Yeah, balance is an entire ecosystem, change one thing and it can have unintended knock-on side effects elsewhere, making it a challenge to balance things. In this case, the Cauldron is at least aware of the knock-on side effects and keeping an eye on things, and they are taking feedback from the playerbase, so further tweaking can be done.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

when we have a perfect Matchmaker ,so this algorithm is perfect for each War or Sportevent to handle a Victory.

a Matchmaker thats can handle the Inbalance of the Mankinbd and her creative Ideas and unlogical actions

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 27 January 2022 - 09:24 PM.

[Meep Meep]

YueFei, on 26 January 2022 - 10:37 AM, said:

But one thing I want to bring up: I believe (but I could be wrong) that at the moment the crit damage of MGs is not affected by range fall-off? Which means as long as you aren't outside of the maximum range of an MG (e.g., a HMG), even if you're so far out that it does like 0.000001 damage, if it hits structure it has the potential to do full maximum crit damage.

I think this is hard-wired into the game mechanics, and cannot be changed by simple XML change, and at the moment the Cauldron is limited to only XML changes. So keep that in mind when making suggestions, as the scope of changes they can make is limited.

This is why I prefer to use lmg since you can with skills float out the max range to over 500m and it makes for great crit sniping mid to late game on open components. As to the changes themselves it would be xml edits of the crit chances and not an actual change to the mechanic. As it stands crit chances are identical for all three mg class.

[Thorqemada]

Weightclass parity was once a thing - it helped somewhat but it still favoured damage dealers.
Nowadays its gone bcs it would be impossible to mm groups and solos and get weightclass parity on top.

And there is no fix for a Light that can only field one Laser...or 2 or 3...even 4 does not keep up...

Edited by Thorqemada, 28 January 2022 - 11:41 AM.

[pattonesque]

Thorqemada, on 28 January 2022 - 11:41 AM, said:

Weightclass parity was once a thing - it helped somewhat but it still favoured damage dealers.
Nowadays its gone bcs it would be impossible to mm groups and solos and get weightclass parity on top.

And there is no fix for a Light that can only field one Laser...or 2 or 3...even 4 does not keep up...

oh, I dunno, the LPL Locust only has 1E and it's v. playable

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 28 January 2022 - 12:06 PM, said:

oh, I dunno, the LPL Locust only has 1E and it's v. playable

AND hilarious to play. before skill tree it has a cooldown of 1.5 seconds for that LPL, a laser duration of only half a second, and an optimal range of 450m. keep its 145kph buttocks in motion and have fun!

[Meep Meep]

Lpl locust is fun but so is the lpl spider.

HippityHoppityMyPulseGoPoppity

Or a bit less heat management with more HippityHoppity.

HippityHoppityMyPulseGoPoppity

Edited by Meep Meep, 28 January 2022 - 01:54 PM.

[Andrewlik]

24 pages

What the hell happened here?

[caravann]

Light mechs are bad at dps but machineguns don't produce any heat. Their speed is to be able to recover from heat. The light mechs were given smaller engines with less amount of heatsinks. The extra heatsinks went into the side torsos since a mech is not allowed to carry less heatsinks. This is what causing light mechs to be better since they have smaller engines without any penalties. The game see it as; you simply can not walk with less heatsinks. having less heatsinks should be considered having the "ghost heat" state on all guns. A light mech who try to exploit machineguns won't be able to use lasers. Would this work in practice?

[pbiggz]

Andrewlik, on 30 January 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

24 pages

What the hell happened here?

Lies. Lies happened.

caravann, on 30 January 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

Light mechs are bad at dps but machineguns don't produce any heat. Their speed is to be able to recover from heat. The light mechs were given smaller engines with less amount of heatsinks. The extra heatsinks went into the side torsos since a mech is not allowed to carry less heatsinks. This is what causing light mechs to be better since they have smaller engines without any penalties. The game see it as; you simply can not walk with less heatsinks. having less heatsinks should be considered having the "ghost heat" state on all guns. A light mech who try to exploit machineguns won't be able to use lasers. Would this work in practice?

If you're asking for a nerf, then no, it will not work because lights dont need a nerf.

[caravann]

pbiggz, on 30 January 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Lies. Lies happened.



If you're asking for a nerf, then no, it will not work because lights dont need a nerf.

If you just took a moment to read what I just said = light mechs can have less heatsinks than needed and still use machineguns.

What I proposed was a buff. Imagine if you could run with zero extra heatsinks but you can not use lasers. You can still use machineguns. Because machineguns deals no heat.

How hard is it to read.

[Weeny Machine]

caravann, on 30 January 2022 - 11:12 AM, said:

If you just took a moment to read what I just said = light mechs can have less heatsinks than needed and still use machineguns.

What I proposed was a buff. Imagine if you could run with zero extra heatsinks but you can not use lasers. You can still use machineguns. Because machineguns deals no heat.

How hard is it to read.

The rule is weird anyway. I haven't played the tabletop for ages but as far as I can remember every engine - regardles of size - came with 10 heatsinks. Correct me, though, if I am wrong

[ScrapIron Prime]

Weeny Machine, on 30 January 2022 - 11:28 AM, said:

The rule is weird anyway. I haven't played the tabletop for ages but as far as I can remember every engine - regardles of size - came with 10 heatsinks. Correct me, though, if I am wrong

Correct, every engine comes with 10 as part of its tonnage. But engines smaller than 250 can’t fit all 10 inside, so those free-tonnage heat sinks are placed external to the engine. I guess PGI thought this would be confusing, so they instead reduce the tonnage of the engine from the lore amount and force you to buy heat sinks at 1 ton each. Math works out the same, but the explanation of it is a total fumble.