147 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 11 December 2021 - 06:47 PM, said:

oO finaly new FP maps... after 5 years. When FP almost empty =(

Except it's not a faction play map. It's a QP map using assets from the FP map (creating a new map with copy/paste).

[Monkey Lover]

martian, on 11 December 2021 - 12:07 AM, said:

The JagerMech will lose its CT/RT/LT armor buffs, but it will keep its CT/LT/RT/LL/RL structure quirks.

The JagerMech will lose its LA/RA +10 structure buffs that will tun into the LA/RA +14 armor buffs.

Dont understand your point here? Looks like Jager got nerfed to me. I never had issues with my la/ra. Now the Rifleman2c the la/ra fall right off lol

InnerSphereNews, on 10 December 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

January is right around the corner, and with that will come another patch, and more news about the future of MechWarrior Online in 2022!

Soooo did the miss the part about the future of mwo?

[martian]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 11 December 2021 - 06:47 PM, said:

oO finaly new FP maps... after 5 years. When FP almost empty =(

The new Hellebore Outpost map is earmarked for the Quick Play, not for the Faction Play.

[martian]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2021 - 10:28 PM, said:

Dont understand your point here? Looks like Jager got nerfed to me.

I stressed that it will not be a complete nerf and that those structure quirks will remain.

Plus, those JagerMech's arms are going to be actually boosted, because +10 Structure (old) < +14 armor (new). So it is not a pure nerf.

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2021 - 10:28 PM, said:

I never had issues with my la/ra.

Good for you. Obviously, PGI thinks that some other players have such problems, thus the change of quirks.

[Monkey Lover]

martian, on 11 December 2021 - 11:23 PM, said:

Good for you. Obviously, PGI thinks that some other players have such problems, thus the change of quirks.

pgi? lol pgi doesn't update this game anymore. You can thank a handful of people on a discord for these changes.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 December 2021 - 11:48 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Battlemaster56, on 11 December 2021 - 07:16 PM, said:

Was the SNV-1 outperforming that much?

It absolutely was, yes.

[martian]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2021 - 11:45 PM, said:

pgi? lol pgi doesn't update this game anymore. You can thank a handful of people on a discord for these changes.

I have thought that new 'Mechs such those from the Stryker, Warden, Hunter and Predator 'Mech Packs were PGI's work. I thought that people who modeled those add-ons, prepared those variants, painted those 'Mech skins, etc. are PGI's employees.

I have thought that Francois Tremblay (the new map designer) is PGI's employee. Personally I would count six updated maps as game updates ...

And what about Mark Nicholson? Or Matt Newman? Or Daeron Katz? They had nothing to do with MWO updates and game patches, such as the upcoming one?

[sinba1ew]

I sadly dubut that Jegers wil survive long enough for arm buffs to matter
They are horribly easy to pick apart and with the tonage starved tendency provoking players to do double AC20 might not be best...

My prediction is as follows:
1-players are interested by +1HSL
2-players try the mech
3-players use XL or LE to scrape some tonage for dual AC20
4-players die before they get to fire their first ton of ammo


I concider this mech to be rough
the long range support version might work despite being fragile and prone to losing torso; but the AC20 variant might have rather rough time

I'd suggest to relegate this abomination of a mech to being backline support, that can bring more equipment thanks to it's build
if You want to make it work maybe give it something like:
-heat quirk (so it can boost burst with tonage efficient energy weapons)
-fire rate quirk / cooldown quirk
-tonage quirk (yes, i mean something like +5 tons to carry despite being in same tonage bracket.... we already have anti-grav urbie engine, so it's nothing that breaks physics further


...just....something that doesn't strip the armor off that pancake and puts it on front line...



or....just let the AC20 variant keep armor on the torsos... it'd need it

[martian]

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 01:43 AM, said:

I sadly dubut that Jegers wil survive long enough for arm buffs to matter
They are horribly easy to pick apart and with the tonage starved tendency provoking players to do double AC20 might not be best...

"They are horribly easy to pick apart" if you keep them in the full view of the enemy team.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 01:43 AM, said:

My prediction is as follows:
1-players are interested by +1HSL
2-players try the mech
3-players use XL or LE to scrape some tonage for dual AC20
4-players die before they get to fire their first ton of ammo

There are one or two points that I would like to make, if I may:

QUIRKS
The fact that a 'Mech comes with just one quirk suitable for some loadout does not neccessarily mean that you "must" use such loadout because of that one quirk - especially, if such loadout does not work for you.

TACTICS
Do not try to brawl in your BoomJager in the first minute of the game, when the enemy team is still together and all enemy 'Mechs are anxious to unload their alpha strikes into the first 'Mech they can see.

BoomJager works best as the ambusher of lone enemy 'Mechs of the same weight class or lower.

LOADOUT
Check other quirks to find some alternative loadout.
In this case, the JagerMech is going to get the 20% ballistic cooldown. That is not bad. Try other ballistic weapons such AC-10s, LBX-10s, UAC-10s or RAC-5s.

If you still think that the JagerMech is too soft for short- and mid-range battles, use a pair of Gauss Rifles.
You will have following quirks:

• -20% Ballistic cooldown - cooldown of your Gauss Rifles 3.8 sec
  
• +20% Range - the optimal range of your Gauss Rifles is going to be 972 m
  
• +10% Velocity - your Gauss Rifle slugs will have the velocity 2420 m/s

Or just try some missiles to keep the range open. LRMs? MRMs?

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 01:43 AM, said:

I concider this mech to be rough
the long range support version might work despite being fragile and prone to losing torso; but the AC20 variant might have rather rough time

Actually, JagerMech was designed with long-range fire support in mind.

Its high-mounted weapons are really useful and its survivability can be improved by staying in the partial cover, like this:

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'd suggest to relegate this abomination of a mech to being backline support, that can bring more equipment thanks to it's build
if You want to make it work maybe give it something like:
-heat quirk (so it can boost burst with tonage efficient energy weapons)
-fire rate quirk / cooldown quirk
-tonage quirk (yes, i mean something like +5 tons to carry despite being in same tonage bracket.... we already have anti-grav urbie engine, so it's nothing that breaks physics further
...just....something that doesn't strip the armor off that pancake and puts it on front line...
or....just let the AC20 variant keep armor on the torsos... it'd need it

1. Check the quirks that JagerMech currently has and the quirks that it going to get. It already has ballistic and missile cooldown quirks and it is going to keep them - actually that ballistic cooldown quirk is going to be enhanced.

2. That Urbie engine is a very very specific case. Could you name any MWO 'Mech that has "+5 tons for weapons" quirk? If you wish to have more tons for weapons, use Warhammer.

[sinba1ew]

Quote

"They are horribly easy to pick apart" if you keep them in the full view of the enemy team.

I'd say that survivability is better for anyone so long as he is not targeted o not in view
thing is, that since this argument doesn't do anything different to jeger I'd say it's irrelevant as it can be used for any mech equaly.
it would be hard sell to say Jeger has even decent geometry... he is pretty bad as far as torso goes; it's geometry though is more forgiving in longer range trades, where focusing fire is harder, hence I favour longer range variants of this mech

Quote

QUIRKS
The fact that a 'Mech comes with just one quirk suitable for some loadout does not neccessarily mean that you "must" use such loadout because of that one quirk - especially, if such loadout does not work for you.

As for the criticism of my mention of quirks I am not oposed long range variant changes
I just am of opinion, that the short range and decreased survival do not pair well, I know You don't have to use the quirk, but use of the quirk forces such risky playstyle that is very punishing and can be performed better on other mechs I just don't see much of a point to the quirk in first pleace.

Other quirks are not bad in themselves I agree, and I don't criticize that really... but the AC20 I do
even AC10 puts You at much safer range and doesn't force Your hand to go for XL (and it's really risky in mech with such big easy to aim at sides.

Quote

Its high-mounted weapons are really useful and its survivability can be improved by staying in the partial cover, like this:
<image of peaking jeger>

I agree, peaking is good tactic, but it's not exclusive to jeger; thing is, peaking is something Jeger is not even close in exceling at since You need line of sight from Your cabin, and You need to expose (as You showned on image) significant portion of the mech

if You were to even go as far as compare it to how much You expose in riffleman, HunchbackIIC or Stalker You know what I have in mind.
the fact, that weapons are high mounted actually is suboptimal in that case since using low cover leaves Your weapons exposed sometimes while denying You vision already (due to low cockpit).
I'd argue the value of either high cockpit or high weapons is not nearly as significant without the other of the two.




also.... as far as My prediction goes
I belive I should clarify what I had in mind.
I don't think other variants of Jeger wil be bad...the range actually is best Jeger can get, ammo efficiency is also pretty much equivalent of giving tonage for the mech if it was using ammo in the first pleace
I would say though that as much as other variants of Jeger get reasonable buffs in other departments the JM6-A seems worse after buff... best thing I see going for him now is going for MRM10's actually, but again... I just see the AC20 quirk as a missed oppurtunity.

I feel like this variant (JM6-A) just loses more than it's gaining really

Quote

2. That Urbie engine is a very very specific case. Could you name any MWO 'Mech that has "+5 tons for weapons" quirk? If you wish to have more tons for weapons, use Warhammer.

There is none...however up to not long ago there was no +1 consumable, nor was there +seismic... I don't think that fact, that this does not exist should block us from concidering the idea.

Also, by the logic of "get bigger mech" we could argue, Comando didn't need any buffs it recived cause You could always go with Asasin.... it is not really a great way to look at things in My opinion.

I'd say that biggest problem of Jeger is that it is relict of era when You could have been aiming with third-person-view fron the point of view of the drone... it was great time for the Jeger, it was actually making the low cockpit not that big of a deal, but since removal of that targeting method You are stuck with a mech that wants to be far far away as it's built as fire support
Giving that mech anything that provokes players to get clsoe without giving some survival too might lead to feast-or-famin effect.


PS. thank You for analysys; it's nice to see someone try to find way around problem; though we don't see eye-to-eye what the solution would be.

[sinba1ew]

actually.... silly as it sounds best way to play the new JM6-A might be to double down on missile ammo efficiency

You could cram 2 MRM 40 and 2 MRM 10 (i'd combo these to go for high tonage efficiency) or 4 MRM 10

This way You could just focus on spaming missiles and since You could stay at 400+ meters You could maybe get away with the despicable geometry of this mech....
it would actually be something that this mech could maybe do somewhat allright....

...though doing it on mech with better geometry would be safer
and that brings me to last idea:

New jegger 6A is LRM boat
You get high missile pods that wil not clip onto terrain during launch, You get decent speed, pleny of amuniition efficiency
and best of all, You don't have to do direct fire
(streak could maybe work too as anti-light and anti-medium but it'd be significantly less efficient due to short range & pretty much nesesery line of sigt)

[Cyrilis]

Just to double check:
Any news on the missing AMS Hardpoint UM-R80, right shoulder? Announcement post https://mwomercs.com...rewards-program
states there will be one, but it's missing ingame.

[PocketYoda]

Monkey Lover, on 11 December 2021 - 10:28 PM, said:

Dont understand your point here? Looks like Jager got nerfed to me. I never had issues with my la/ra. Now the Rifleman2c the la/ra fall right off lol





Soooo did the miss the part about the future of mwo?

I was seeing Jager as a nerf myself.. Who shoots its shoulders when its cored in seconds..

[martian]

Cyrilis, on 12 December 2021 - 04:48 AM, said:

Just to double check:
Any news on the missing AMS Hardpoint UM-R80, right shoulder? Announcement post https://mwomercs.com...rewards-program
states there will be one, but it's missing ingame.

Use this e-mail to inform PGI:

technical@mwomercs.com

[martian]

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

I'd say that survivability is better for anyone so long as he is not targeted o not in view
thing is, that since this argument doesn't do anything different to jeger I'd say it's irrelevant as it can be used for any mech equaly.
it would be hard sell to say Jeger has even decent geometry... he is pretty bad as far as torso goes; it's geometry though is more forgiving in longer range trades, where focusing fire is harder, hence I favour longer range variants of this mech

You are right.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

As for the criticism of my mention of quirks I am not oposed long range variant changes
I just am of opinion, that the short range and decreased survival do not pair well, I know You don't have to use the quirk, but use of the quirk forces such risky playstyle that is very punishing and can be performed better on other mechs I just don't see much of a point to the quirk in first pleace.

I guess that the quirk is going to be added, so that some older players, who have some sentimental feelings towards the old BoomJager, can run it.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

Other quirks are not bad in themselves I agree, and I don't criticize that really... but the AC20 I do
even AC10 puts You at much safer range and doesn't force Your hand to go for XL (and it's really risky in mech with such big easy to aim at sides.

Light Fusion Engine is the reasonable compromise between the compactness of the Standard Fusion Engine and the fragility of the Extralight Fusion Engine.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

I agree, peaking is good tactic, but it's not exclusive to jeger; thing is, peaking is something Jeger is not even close in exceling at since You need line of sight from Your cabin, and You need to expose (as You showned on image) significant portion of the mech

if You were to even go as far as compare it to how much You expose in riffleman, HunchbackIIC or Stalker You know what I have in mind.
the fact, that weapons are high mounted actually is suboptimal in that case since using low cover leaves Your weapons exposed sometimes while denying You vision already (due to low cockpit).
I'd argue the value of either high cockpit or high weapons is not nearly as significant without the other of the two.

Sure, but generally speaking, it is better to have high-mounted weapons than low-mounted weapons.

I would say that peeking with JagerMech is easier than peeking with Cataphract or Black Knight.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

also.... as far as My prediction goes
I belive I should clarify what I had in mind.
I don't think other variants of Jeger wil be bad...the range actually is best Jeger can get, ammo efficiency is also pretty much equivalent of giving tonage for the mech if it was using ammo in the first pleace
I would say though that as much as other variants of Jeger get reasonable buffs in other departments the JM6-A seems worse after buff... best thing I see going for him now is going for MRM10's actually, but again... I just see the AC20 quirk as a missed oppurtunity.

I feel like this variant (JM6-A) just loses more than it's gaining really

Players disliking ballistic weapons could try missiles:

• SRMs are not entirely suitable, since they force this JagerMech to move too close to the enemy 'Mech. That +20% SRM range will not help much.
  
• Streak SRMs ditto.
  
• LRMs are possible, although not entirely useful in higher Tiers. Another problem is that LRMs work well with TAG, but JagerMech has its energy hardpoints quite low.
  
• If I had to, I would probably go with MRM spam, maybe in combination with LFE. Just staying in the medium range, spamming MRMs (-10% missile cooldown, -5% missile heat, +10% range) and knowing that I do not have to worry about ammunition (thanks to that +75% missile ammo per ton quirk).

I know that this MRM-Jager would be not meta, but it could be fun for a while.

sinba1ew, on 12 December 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

There is none...however up to not long ago there was no +1 consumable, nor was there +seismic... I don't think that fact, that this does not exist should block us from concidering the idea.

Also, by the logic of "get bigger mech" we could argue, Comando didn't need any buffs it recived cause You could always go with Asasin.... it is not really a great way to look at things in My opinion.

I'd say that biggest problem of Jeger is that it is relict of era when You could have been aiming with third-person-view fron the point of view of the drone... it was great time for the Jeger, it was actually making the low cockpit not that big of a deal, but since removal of that targeting method You are stuck with a mech that wants to be far far away as it's built as fire support
Giving that mech anything that provokes players to get clsoe without giving some survival too might lead to feast-or-famin effect.

The BoomJager is just the reminder of the bygone era when there was only a small number of 'Mech types in MechWarrior Online. The players were trying all kinds of strange loadouts to get the most bang of the chassis they had.

Edited by martian, 12 December 2021 - 06:27 AM.

[Natural Predator]

Bud Crue, on 11 December 2021 - 06:15 PM, said:

I do wonder how the Quickdraws, particularly the 4G and 4H (but I'd also include the 5K and even the IV-4 for this) can even remotely compete with "the strongest mechs in a weight class" or what "unique role or capability" these mechs will now have given these fairly middling quirks.

Lets pretend that the IV-4 is the "strongest" heavy in the game (obviously it isn't), in such a hypothetical reality, the 4G and 4H remain inferior to it on stats and load out potential alone. Now compare their abilities to actual comparable mechs in terms of hard points (again, not even necessarily the strongest heavies, just comparable ones) and the 4G and 4H are even more distinctly inferior. The Warhammer 7S with 3M, 6E and 40% velocity quirk and no CT handicap preventing it from taking a big 3rd M launcher, is in every way, other than jump capability, superior to the 4H. Compare the 4H or 4G to what you can do with a Timberwolf and the comparisons get even more silly.

I'm sorry, but while you Cauldron folks certainly know the game and how it works far better that the likes of me, but I can read, and I can see what gets played. The changes made to the Quickies are not going to make them competitive to the strongest heavies in the game and they certainly don't provide them with anything unique in terms of role or capability...unless of course you consider a hard point starved mixed build heavy that is more on par with a Jenner X-5 or maybe a Shadow Cat, in terms of weapons loadouts, to be a unique role or capability.

You can easily run a HPPC build on either mech, you could run the MRM build on either mech. thats just off the top of my head.

[Bud Crue]

Trashtier, on 12 December 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

You can easily run a HPPC build on either mech, you could run the MRM build on either mech. thats just off the top of my head.

And? MRM 60 (or 80) is already done better on the IV-4 among many other mechs including several mediums with as good or better quirks. Same with HPPCs. If the goals are to make them "compete with the strongest mechs" in their weight class or to provide them with "a unique role or capability" how does putting a build on them that is already done better on other mechs within the class, as well as many that are in the medium class, meet either of those stated goals? Making the 4H a poor mans IV-4, or an overweight Black Jack is not putting it on par with "the strongest" heavies, and it certainly doesn't give it a unique role. Same with the 4G and any build you care to name.

Edited by Bud Crue, 12 December 2021 - 09:16 AM.

[Natural Predator]

Bud Crue, on 12 December 2021 - 09:13 AM, said:

And? MRM 60 (or 80) is already done better on the IV-4 among many other mechs including several mediums with as good or better quirks. Same with HPPCs. If the goals are to make them "compete with the strongest mechs" in their weight class or to provide them with "a unique role or capability" how does putting a build on them that is already done better on other mechs within the class, as well as many that are in the medium class, meet either of those stated goals? Making the 4H a poor mans IV-4, or an overweight Black Jack is not putting it on par with "the strongest" heavies, and it certainly doesn't give it a unique role. Same with the 4G and any build you care to name.

Not every mech has to be peak meta to be effective. Loads of mechs that have better options that are still useful. Unless your playing comp, just enjoy the game. I 100 percent guarantee i could get something out of the 4h or 4g.

Edited by Trashtier, 12 December 2021 - 10:59 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Trashtier, on 12 December 2021 - 10:58 AM, said:

Not every mech has to be peak meta to be effective. Loads of mechs that have better options that are still useful. Unless your playing comp, just enjoy the game. I 100 percent guarantee i could get something out of the 4h or 4g.

Trust me, I get plenty of decent results out of my quickies, but that isn't the point. These quirk changes are certainly a step in the right direction, but if the Cauldron's standards for applying quirks are as Navid has stated above, then the Quickdraws -all of them- but especially the 4H and 4G are going to need something more substantial or interesting.

[Natural Predator]

Bud Crue, on 12 December 2021 - 11:13 AM, said:

Trust me, I get plenty of decent results out of my quickies, but that isn't the point. These quirk changes are certainly a step in the right direction, but if the Cauldron's standards for applying quirks are as Navid has stated above, then the Quickdraws -all of them- but especially the 4H and 4G are going to need something more substantial or interesting.

I think your asking too much of Navid and more specifically the Cauldron team and PGI to make all mechs as close to equal as possible from a meta stand point or effectiveness stand point. There is always going to be clear winners and losers in this because PGI is trying to keep mechs as close to lore as possible and pilot skill is going to make those differences appear wider. Mechwarrior itself is not a balanced game so it only naturally follows that some designs will be better and more effective in a PVP enviroment.