165 replies to this topic

[Maddermax]

After playing a few more times, I have to say I still like the map generally, but it needs at least another couple of ramps in it.

There’s nearly a full quarter turn in the south west corner where there is no ramp to the centre, meaning at least one to two minutes walk if you end up down there to get back to a fighting location.

There’s also the area near the waterfall - if you end up down there, you either need to go to the tunnel to the west, up the opposite ramp, along the outer ring and across the bridge (which is under the enemy position and a looong route) or to the ramp on the east, where you have to expose your rear to the overwatch spot that the enemy usually controls most of the game. Or you fight behind the valley, which is a really bad idea, unless your team is winning anyway and you join the victory mosh pit when enemies drop down to escape. It either needs another tunnel out, or more cover for the western pathway. A more direct ramp from the end of the tunnel would also be appreciated, as it takes a long time to get up that way.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

It's also so called "Light heaven". Lots of cover is good for brawling, yeah. But when map is maze - it's great way for Lights to attack and retreat. You should understand, that in most cases range attacks - is the best way to deal with Lights. I.e. when they try run away and you shoot their back via your Gauss.

If you know how to protect yourself in the maze of all those streets, alleys, ledges, rooftops and overpasses of the Solaris City, then you can protect yourself on the new Hellebore Outpost map too.

Protip: UAVs do work on the Hellebore Outpost map, as does the Seismic sensor.

And if everything fails, there is always the old and reliable Eyeball Mk. I sensor.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

When they can hide and change position almost immediately - they become literally invulnerable. Emmmm. Even more invulnerable, than invulnerable. Super-invulnerable. And this ability can't be countered by anything else. Except may be another Light.

I might be wrong, but the "hit-and-run" tactic has been a part of this game since the very beginning. In comparison with heavier 'Mechs, light 'Mechs lack both firepower and armor.

MrMadguy, on 19 December 2021 - 10:32 PM, said:

And this map is big. There are many places to run away to. In most cases Lights can be cornered at some point. But not on this map.

And the reworked Polar Highlands map is small? Or the reworked Forest Colony? Or the reworked Terra Therma? Or the reworked Frozen City?

The Hellebore Outpost map is no different - all those aforementioned maps are quite large.

[PocketYoda]

It seems super popular in game it even out votes the popular maps.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Meep Meep, on 20 December 2021 - 08:48 PM, said:

Because its neatly divided by deep valleys which preclude running in circles. You have to advance or retreat along paths and ridgelines there isn't really any option for wide flanking. Even the center is broken up enough so that nascar is pretty much impossible unless you want to end up with your back to a cliff or wall.

The best matches I’ve had on Hellebore were in a Phoenix Hawk 7S with max jump jets. Cliffs are no obstacle to that fellow! So many back shots.

[Ekson Valdez]

Removed offtopic discussion about Mech Mobility. Please stay on topic.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 21 December 2021 - 02:56 PM, said:

It seems super popular in game it even out votes the popular maps.

Because Hellebore Outpost is a new map. I expect that the interest in this map will fall off after some time.

[Ken Harkin]

I have come to hate this trainwreck of a map with the burning intensity of a thousand suns. This is absolutely NOT Solaris. Solaris may be tight with some elevated positions but this **** is tight and ENTIRELY COMPOSED OF ELEVATED POSITIONS. Any misstep on this visually confused mess will send you plummeting 50+ meters to the depth of a chasm from which you MAY be able to eventually slog out of after multiple dead ends and becoming tied up on minuscule terrain features assuming you are not devoured by the lights poking you from the ridges.

To add insult to injury this hot mess has been dumped on us right when those who have paid actual $$$ for the new mech pack are trying to complete a challenge with the pair of non-jump jet equipped heavies.

[martian]

Ken Harkin, on 22 December 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

I have come to hate this trainwreck of a map with the burning intensity of a thousand suns.

You are expressing some strong feelings towards this new map ...

Ken Harkin, on 22 December 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

This is absolutely NOT Solaris. Solaris may be tight with some elevated positions but this **** is tight and ENTIRELY COMPOSED OF ELEVATED POSITIONS.

Stay with your 'Mech on the top of those cliffs, so there will be no elevated position above you.

Ken Harkin, on 22 December 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

Any misstep on this visually confused mess will send you plummeting 50+ meters to the depth of a chasm from which you MAY be able to eventually slog out of after multiple dead ends and becoming tied up on minuscule terrain features assuming you are not devoured by the lights poking you from the ridges.

1. Learn the map. I know that it probably sounds unhelpful, but the more often you play this map, the better you will remember what ramp goes where.
Eventually you will learn from what direction the enemy team usually comes too.

2. Typical light 'Mechs often carry short-range weapons, so if you are in their range, they are in the range of your weapons.

Ken Harkin, on 22 December 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

To add insult to injury this hot mess has been dumped on us right when those who have paid actual $$$ for the new mech pack are trying to complete a challenge with the pair of non-jump jet equipped heavies.

I have had a good time on this map in my brand new "Ambush". That mini-'Mech is neat and the medaillon adds some additional C-Bills to the Hero 'Mech bonus (not that I need more C-Bills anyway).

[ScrapIron Prime]

True, mechs with lots of jump jets have an easier time on this map, yes. But the map is great. Spend some time on it in Testing Grounds as martian suggested.

[martian]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 December 2021 - 09:51 AM, said:

True, mechs with lots of jump jets have an easier time on this map, yes.

Many Clan OmniMechs with hard-wired Jump Jets finally have a map that rewards them for this locked equipment.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Ken Harkin, on 22 December 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

I have come to hate this trainwreck of a map with the burning intensity of a thousand suns. This is absolutely NOT Solaris. Solaris may be tight with some elevated positions but this **** is tight and ENTIRELY COMPOSED OF ELEVATED POSITIONS. Any misstep on this visually confused mess will send you plummeting 50+ meters to the depth of a chasm from which you MAY be able to eventually slog out of after multiple dead ends and becoming tied up on minuscule terrain features assuming you are not devoured by the lights poking you from the ridges.

To add insult to injury this hot mess has been dumped on us right when those who have paid actual $$$ for the new mech pack are trying to complete a challenge with the pair of non-jump jet equipped heavies.

here's 2 cents:

I've run NOTHING BUT mechs without JJs since the map was injected, and while I see that JJs are useful there, I've managed to do fine without, each and every match - as did others.
to say that you can't play that map without JJs is utter nonsense, along with a lot of other, totally unfounded critisism. cool down, play the map a while, learn the map in training grounds (it helps a lot), and THEN in a few weeks do some constructive critisism, instead of .. doing what you did above.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 22 December 2021 - 10:13 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

Its a beautiful, huge map, but actual combat combat almost always comes down to in-your-face hugging in a very small area of the pee stain (regardless of what game mode your playing), more mobile mechs are heavily favored overall, and the map is just punishment for mechs without maximized jump jets. If you have a long standing love affair with your extra jumpy Phoenix Hawk, or Viper, then this baby is for you, otherwise this map can be a real grind.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 22 December 2021 - 10:23 AM.

[martian]

An6ryMan69, on 22 December 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

Its a beautiful, huge map, but actual combat combat almost always comes down to in-your-face hugging in a very small area of the pee stain (regardless of what game mode your playing)

This problem has existed since the very beginning of MWO. It is caused by static deployment zones and static objectives (domination circle, bases, etc.)

An6ryMan69, on 22 December 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

more mobile mechs are heavily favored overall, and the map is just punishment for mechs without maximized jump jets.

I would not call it "punishment". 'Mechs with jump jets have advantage here, that is true, but I have no unsurmountable problems in my JJ-less "Ambush".

An6ryMan69, on 22 December 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

If you have a long standing love affair with your extra jumpy Phoenix Hawk, or Viper, then this baby is for you, otherwise this map can be a real grind.

Many MWO players were rewarded with the Loyalty Viper a month ago.

[pbiggz]

Sounds like people just need practice on it.

[Bamboozle Gold]

I've had plenty of good matches here in jump jet-less mechs. Falling down is a last resort for a slow assault though but it can sometimes be just what you need.

[DaZur]

Bamboozle Gold, on 23 December 2021 - 06:40 AM, said:

I've had plenty of good matches here in jump jet-less mechs. Falling down is a last resort for a slow assault though but it can sometimes be just what you need.

Same.

While the landscape and structures can provide copious amount of cover and concealment... They can equally create some nasty kill-boxes. I've had more than one match where mechs get caught in an area where they just can't quickly retreat and they get unceremoniously focused down. (I've also been on the receiving end but lets focus on the positive side)

[chaosshade2638]

Found another thing that's a problem for this map, there's no Alpha/Beta for Domination!

[martian]

chaosshade2638, on 23 December 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

Found another thing that's a problem for this map, there's no Alpha/Beta for Domination!

There are two possibilities:

1. Perhaps some PGI employee has finally noticed that Alpha and Beta are absolutely ignored in 99.9% of games.

2. PGI's oversight.

Anyway, do you miss them? I do not.

[ScrapIron Prime]

chaosshade2638, on 23 December 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

Found another thing that's a problem for this map, there's no Alpha/Beta for Domination!

You should post THAT here: https://mwomercs.com...2-map-feedback/

[Blood Rose]

All I am getting from this thread is that there is a large subset of heavy/assault weight gunboat players that are finding themselves faced with, for perhaps the first time in MWO's history, a map that does not reward being the biggest thing with guns but instead the smaller and more nimble mech, and they do NOT like it.
Well kiddos, welcome to how it feels to be a Light or lower end mobile Medium in literally every other map. I only hope we get more like it.