71 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

So now that we have had plenty of time to mess about with them what are your conclusions so far?

As for me they have improved a fair bit but still lack in general usability because they need to be boated much like ac2 to have any real impact on a build. A quad fit seems at the moment to be the minimum and there are not many mechs that can pull that off vs using other more efficient weapon systems.

I've been screwing around with different quad fits on various mechs from lights to heavies and it always comes down to running out of slots and/or tons so you can fit in the rest of the needed items and any secondary weapons.

Damage is fine especially when compared to the tons and slots needed for an ac5 plus ammo and rof is good too in comparison. Heat is workable even with a quad as the extra ghost heat is minimal so you can even run 5 and not get into too much trouble as long as you have the required heat capacity skills unlocked and have compatible quirks.

So for me that boils it down to fittings and it seems that reducing its slots to 1 and reducing weight to 2.5 would open up many more fits on light and medium mechs whilst not making it op on heavier mechs with lots of energy hardpoints and tons to spare. Maybe jinker around a bit on the heat or rof to balance it out?

So thats my take what about you gents?

Edited by Meep Meep, 13 December 2021 - 08:41 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

Pretty much meh. The only real use is auto-disabling ecm/stealth but then why are you not using c/bap and/or a uav to save those extra weight for more better stuff? You do have to boat 3-4 of them and even them you'll be chain firing for heat management.

On the pnt with speed buff it can be ok but on lights I'd rather do mpls for the weight. The only other buff is they do damage under 91m without the massive heat spike the snub or er-ppc has. With the increase of ecm on 50% of the new mechs lppc i've seen them on every weight class simply as a counter to ecm that works far better than a tag and weighs less than the 5-6t narc plus ammo problem.

[Heavy Money]

Its extremely efficient. Very good damage per heat and tonnage. Some of the best for its range. Its great on Lights and Mediums. It can't be a main weapon on Heavies and Assaults due to the ghost heat (which is intentional as it would outclass regular PPCs if it could be) but is still an excellent backup weapon on both.

ThreeStooges, on 13 December 2021 - 06:33 PM, said:

you'll be chain firing for heat management.

Oh god noooooooooooooooooooo

Edited by Heavy Money, 13 December 2021 - 06:36 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

It’s pinpoint damage and double the range of a medium laser with a better cool down. I’m okay with a 2 ton tax for that. Not sure that less heat would be reasonable.

[w0qj]

Can we have this Ultra-Light PPC (1 slot, 2.5ton) for my own proposed MWO Timeline Expansion v2.0 ?
(Should this happen, this would be the first timeline expansion since the MWO Civil War timeline!)

Meep Meep, on 13 December 2021 - 06:14 PM, said:

So now that we have had plenty of time to mess about with them [Light PPC] what are your conclusions so far?
...
Damage is fine especially when compared to the tons and slots needed for an ac5 plus ammo and rof is good too in comparison. Heat is workable even with a quad as the extra ghost heat is minimal so you can even run 5 and not get into too much trouble as long as you have the required heat capacity skills unlocked and have compatible quirks.

So for me that boils it down to fittings and it seems that reducing its slots to 1 and reducing weight to 2.5 would open up many more fits on light and medium mechs whilst not making it op on heavier mechs with lots of energy hardpoints and tons to spare. Maybe jinker around a bit on the heat or rof to balance it out?

So thats my take what about you gents?

[pbiggz]

I much preferred the pre-cauldron post-lowrey iteration, longer cooldown but significantly higher damage. Mounting 3 was like an energy AC 20, only far lighter and more compact, so a viable sniping option for lighter mechs.

Its pretty much the only lowreybalance choice i actually preferred, and the only place i really disagree with the cauldron's choices. As they are right now, LPPCs are just shy of good, firmly in "meh" territory.

[Sjorpha]

I think light PPCs are quite strong now. On lighter mechs as main weapon and on heavier mechs to complement ballistics.

[Meep Meep]

Heavy Money, on 13 December 2021 - 06:35 PM, said:

Its extremely efficient. Very good damage per heat and tonnage. Some of the best for its range. Its great on Lights and Mediums. It can't be a main weapon on Heavies and Assaults due to the ghost heat (which is intentional as it would outclass regular PPCs if it could be) but is still an excellent backup weapon on both.

ScrapIron Prime, on 13 December 2021 - 06:40 PM, said:

It’s pinpoint damage and double the range of a medium laser with a better cool down. I’m okay with a 2 ton tax for that. Not sure that less heat would be reasonable.

Given than it seems more a weapons system for lights and mediums the reduction to a 1.5 ton tax seems reasonable to make them more usable on more mechs. The reduction to one slot isn't strictly needed but certainly helps with wedging in an extra double sink or fitting two in a ct. As to heat you could probably up the ghost heat penalty a bit so that boating more than four isn't viable even with skill nodes and quirks.

pbiggz, on 13 December 2021 - 07:30 PM, said:

I much preferred the pre-cauldron post-lowrey iteration, longer cooldown but significantly higher damage. Mounting 3 was like an energy AC 20, only far lighter and more compact, so a viable sniping option for lighter mechs.

Its pretty much the only lowreybalance choice i actually preferred, and the only place i really disagree with the cauldron's choices. As they are right now, LPPCs are just shy of good, firmly in "meh" territory.

Which is why I made the topic. It's kinda in a middle place of not really any good on heavy and assaults but hard to fit and run on lights and mediums unless they have very specific quirks and hardpoints.

Sjorpha, on 13 December 2021 - 07:33 PM, said:

I think light PPCs are quite strong now. On lighter mechs as main weapon and on heavier mechs to complement ballistics.

Show us your light and medium lppc fits then. Maybe you have a few others haven't figured out yet.

[LordNothing]

i think they are in a good place now. its still a low tonnage ppfld option, even if you need four of them to do useful damage like pretty much every other energy weapon. it also allows ppc boats at the lower end of the tonnage spectrum. on bigger mechs you can boat a lot of them or use them as a backup weapon. i also like to use them singularly as an anti-ecm/stealth weapon, good supplement for lrm/ssrm boats.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2021 - 07:59 PM.

[Meep Meep]

LordNothing, on 13 December 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

i think they are in a good place now. its still a low tonnage ppfld option, even if you need four of them to do useful damage like pretty much every other energy weapon. it also allows ppc boats at the lower end of the tonnage spectrum.

The issue though is that unlike the other low damage energy weapons which conform to a one slot .5~2 ton range the lppc is two slots and 3 tons which makes boating three or four difficult except for a handful of mechs with the right hardpoints and quirks. So its not nearly as useful in a general sense for lights and mediums than the other lower range energy options.

[Meep Meep]

w0qj, on 13 December 2021 - 06:43 PM, said:

Can we have this Ultra-Light PPC (1 slot, 2.5ton) for my own proposed MWO Timeline Expansion v2.0 ?
(Should this happen, this would be the first timeline expansion since the MWO Civil War timeline!)

Hrmm this would probably be making up a weapon that doesn't exist in lore but a micro ppc that does 4.5 damage but takes up one slot and 2 tons seems reasonable provided the lppc is tweaked a bit too so that two or three are useful in fits. Say keep overall stats the same but change damage to 5 points direct and 1.5 point in splash.

[pbiggz]

LordNothing, on 13 December 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

i think they are in a good place now. its still a low tonnage ppfld option, even if you need four of them to do useful damage like pretty much every other energy weapon. it also allows ppc boats at the lower end of the tonnage spectrum. on bigger mechs you can boat a lot of them or use them as a backup weapon. i also like to use them singularly as an anti-ecm/stealth weapon, good supplement for lrm/ssrm boats.

The problem is anything with the tonnage to boat enough LPPCs to have a significant punch, is better served running. They dont really fit a niche that other PPCs don't currently fill better, and running 2 or 3 of them on a light mech is otherwise just kind of lackluster, except on the loyalty urbie.

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 13 December 2021 - 07:54 PM, said:

The issue though is that unlike the other low damage energy weapons which conform to a one slot .5~2 ton range the lppc is two slots and 3 tons which makes boating three or four difficult except for a handful of mechs with the right hardpoints and quirks. So its not nearly as useful in a general sense for lights and mediums than the other lower range energy options.

when you consider the extra range over the light-medium is laser weapons, it makes the extra slot and tonnage requirements more acceptable.

[LordNothing]

pbiggz, on 13 December 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

The problem is anything with the tonnage to boat enough LPPCs to have a significant punch, is better served running. They dont really fit a niche that other PPCs don't currently fill better, and running 2 or 3 of them on a light mech is otherwise just kind of lackluster, except on the loyalty urbie.

if you got the tonnage to run other ppcs then yea. but a ppc boat is usually only a ppc boat and seldom mounts other weaponry without making their ppc boat role much worse. the lppc lets you run ppcs with other complementary weapons, like ac5s or as part of a mixed build. boats with more than four lppcs can be fun to play and they provide suppressive fire and can keep the enemy's ecm units offline en masse or lighting up stealthed wolfpacks. lppc has lots of uses making it the most versatile is ppc.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2021 - 08:14 PM.

[Meep Meep]

LordNothing, on 13 December 2021 - 08:05 PM, said:

when you consider the extra range over the light-medium is laser weapons, it makes the extra slot and tonnage requirements more acceptable.

I agree but currently the extra slot and tonnage requirements leave the other energy weapons as the more viable choice except on specific mechs. I mean right now about the only light mech that can really benefit from lppc over er meds or some other combination of weapons is the loyalty urbie because it has the tonnage to fit a quad along with the quirks and jj ability to use them efficiently and a sweet sweet ecm bonus on top of it all making it more or less the perfect platform. More lights can fit and use three lppc but then you are using 9 tons for 16.5 points of damage when meds and pulse will do that much more efficiently for less slots and tons to boot.

[KaptinOrk]

Is it just me or do 3x LPPCs simply outclass 1x HPPC if you have the energy slots?

Edited by KaptinOrk, 13 December 2021 - 08:24 PM.

[Meep Meep]

KaptinOrk, on 13 December 2021 - 08:24 PM, said:

Is it just me or do 3x LPPCs simply outclass 1x HPPC if you have the energy slots?

Yes. But how many mechs have those slots in the right component? Not many IS mechs have more than two energy in a single component. You can spread them across arms and torso but then you run into convergence issues when leading a target.

[LordNothing]

KaptinOrk, on 13 December 2021 - 08:24 PM, said:

Is it just me or do 3x LPPCs simply outclass 1x HPPC if you have the energy slots?

yea. before the loyalty urbie, i used my street cleaner as an hppc boat, eventually i swapped it for 3 lppcs because they are just better, first you save a ton for an extra heat sink. you also get 16.5 damage instead of 15, dps wise you get 5.49 instead of 3. the range is the same and the trio of lppcs is only 0.5 more heat (easily countered with the extra heat sink).

maybe we should be debating the role of the hppc instead.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 December 2021 - 08:38 PM.

[Meep Meep]

I think there is plenty of room for a general ppc re-refresh now that cauldron has been out long enough.

[KaptinOrk]

Meep Meep, on 13 December 2021 - 08:32 PM, said:

Yes. But how many mechs have those slots in the right component? Not many IS mechs have more than two energy in a single component. You can spread them across arms and torso but then you run into convergence issues when leading a target.

There are actually more IS 'mechs with 3E in any one component than I thought there would be, check MechDB and see for yourself.

LordNothing, on 13 December 2021 - 08:37 PM, said:

yea. before the loyalty urbie, i used my street cleaner as an hppc boat, eventually i swapped it for 3 lppcs because they are just better, first you save a ton for an extra heat sink. you also get 16.5 damage instead of 15, dps wise you get 5.49 instead of 3. the range is the same and the trio of lppcs is only 0.5 more heat (easily countered with the extra heat sink).

maybe we should be debating the role of the hppc instead.

I agree with that. First, it needs it's minimum range either removed or replaced with a damage ramp up similar to that of the standard PPC. Second, I think it could stand to generate a little less heat.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 13 December 2021 - 09:43 PM.