62 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

weird how everyone in this community is in constant denial, personally i hate stealth armor as it has no draw backs. What? its suppose to stop heat dissipation? yea it doesnt just slows it down. And people wonder why the game isnt so successful. If someone said the sky was blue a lot of you guys would scream it was red because tier rank elo nonsense lol

So would you similarly split hairs over "infinity" and "tending toward infinity" when the question is not about the formula but its approximate application? Nobody ever said stealth armour stops heat dissipation, but it certainly hinders it significantly enough to make stealth armour hilariously useless in most situations. You are the one in denial, you and people like the OP. When time and time again, posts like this pop up, and time and time again more experienced players in higher tiers try SO HARD to help you out. We explain that situational awareness counters ECM, it counters stealth, you do not need target lock to shoot, you can use command wheel to mark someone on the map regardless of whether they are on radar, stealth armour takes up critical slots, it destroys heat dissipation, ECM takes up weight, requires skill tree investment, etc etc etc. But no. It is us who are wrong, all our advice is useless, it is not you, it's all of us. Why, we are conspiring to keep you out of T1 with our ER Medium Stealth Fleas and Meme Thanatii.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Weeny Machine, on 11 January 2022 - 07:42 AM, said:

20 headshots will win against 324 hits spread well over all mechs

not that THAT's ever gonna happen, so I'm not sure what your point here was



on the whole ecm-distribution thing:
yeah, nah.
I could see a difference in an otherwise close match that ends in a 12:10, 12:11 or so, but nope - ain't gonna change any outcome besides that.
yes, ecm is good. and also YES, it gets balanced by other factors. compare the buffs of any non-ecm-variant of mechs to those with, and you'll see where this is going. ecm is not the boogeyman people claim it is.
the only point I could see is the denial in 'information warfare', where it effectively makes it harder to get useful infos on a mech, that you then would share with your team to use them.
otoh, and to kill that argument also: we're talking QP here. teamwork&comms are next-to-nonexistent, because people actually want that to be so; so what good is an info that nobody uses anyway..?

final thing, and kind of related: the ONE urbie I don't enjoy piloting too much is the ecm-variant. so go figure^^

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 11 January 2022 - 08:31 AM.

[DaZur]

1453 R, on 10 January 2022 - 06:12 PM, said:

"Waffle around being a chickendicking ambulatory sauerkraut who waits nine minutes before engaging your weapons systems and screaming like a hamstrung hyena any time enemy weapons fire comes within five hundred meters of you, win less."

I'm going to get this engraved on a participation trophy... Best description of a quick-play doormat I've ever read.

Kudos!

[Apteko]

"I cAn ShOoT tHeM aNyWaY!"

Sure, it is that you are unable to report their position to your team so they are not aware and can't choose positions or focus fire. But you certainly can shoot at any ecm mech.
Though ECMs are not the problem - er large lasers are. At least in faction play.
And every second player believing themselves to be an amazing sniper outside of it. The more "let me fit two er ppcs on my assault and for the most of the fight deal damage of a medium mech" pilots you get - the more you feel that your team is somehow weaker and match is imbalanced.

Edited by Apteko, 11 January 2022 - 08:43 AM.

[caravann]

since when did tag help. in most cases it has the opposite effect. You attention about targets who are not primary for the mechwarrior who is engaged with enemies. Some even cry why nobody help when you ask for help. Because they do not understand the command.

The help means = I need assistance with an attack. target spotted = That's the target.

what happens in the game - > 'help = I have a whole lance killing me and anyone going near is going to be killed.

target spotted = I give you ability to fire indirect weapons but they're 3000m on the other side of the map

[Apteko]

> since when did tag help.

Since always. Do you have any real arguments and not just speculations based on assumption that every pug player is terrible and can't properly react to tags?

[Xmith]

Ecm is good to have on the team. But using cover and a decent amount of situational awareness is more effective.

[1453 R]

Put it this way.

TELEFORCE isn't entirely wrong - ECM disparity can suck. But it's not "The Problem".

There is no one "The Problem".

MWO is an incredibly volatile game with such huge, variable swing factors in it that no matchmaking system on the planet can reliably produce the 12/8+ "Close Games" everybody keeps carping after. "The Problem", if any such thing exists, is the playerbase-in-general's fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of the game. I've seen 12/8 games that were absolute murderstomps the whole way throguh - the result of the match was never really in doubt even despite the losing team scoring so many kills, the winning team had everything under control from the start. And I've seen 12/3 games which were absolute nail-biters, where nobody on the winning team is quite sure how they managed to pull it off and every single one of them knows it could've quickly and easily gone the other way.

The 'MechLab is such a big portion of the game, and the matchmaking systems cannot and will never be able to account for it. Between the outrageous-for-a-comp-game level of customization the 'MechLab offers, One Life To Live actually punishing people for their mistakes, piss-poor game modes fostoring absolutely terrible tactics, and all the other X-factors involved in a MWO match? Nothing will ever make it 'better'. Nothing needs to make it 'better'. The system is just fine, it's the users that are the issue. It'd be great to be able to fix certain things, but most of what idiots that don't know better squeal about Needing Fixed are no such thing.

[Meep Meep]

Apteko, on 11 January 2022 - 08:42 AM, said:

"I cAn ShOoT tHeM aNyWaY!"

Sure, it is that you are unable to report their position to your team so they are not aware and can't choose positions or focus fire. But you certainly can shoot at any ecm mech.

You do know you can tag any mech you can see to show up on the minimap by putting your crosshair over it and using the radial menu to spot it right?

[pattonesque]

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

weird how everyone in this community is in constant denial, personally i hate stealth armor as it has no draw backs. What? its suppose to stop heat dissipation? yea it doesnt just slows it down. And people wonder why the game isnt so successful. If someone said the sky was blue a lot of you guys would scream it was red because tier rank elo nonsense lol

"just" slowing down heat dissipation is a huge DPS nerf. you will rarely see stealth mechs in higher tier matches because they just cannot put out enough damage

[Meep Meep]

pattonesque, on 11 January 2022 - 01:14 PM, said:

"just" slowing down heat dissipation is a huge DPS nerf. you will rarely see stealth mechs in higher tier matches because they just cannot put out enough damage

I think its less due to heat issues and more due to people at that tier being wise to stealth mechs in general and know how to counter them so you don't see them much in quick play. The heat penalty only applies when its active so I use it to get into position then fill the heat bar to near cap then retreat and turn it off to cool. Or if the situation allows turn it off and keep firing since ecm still works normally as long as you put the points into the ecm nodes.

[pattonesque]

Meep Meep, on 11 January 2022 - 01:37 PM, said:

I think its less due to heat issues and more due to people at that tier being wise to stealth mechs in general and know how to counter them so you don't see them much in quick play. The heat penalty only applies when its active so I use it to get into position then fill the heat bar to near cap then retreat and turn it off to cool. Or if the situation allows turn it off and keep firing since ecm still works normally as long as you put the points into the ecm nodes.

it's that too. but ultimately even when it's off stealth uses up tonnage/slots that could go to other things

[LordNothing]

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

weird how everyone in this community is in constant denial, personally i hate stealth armor as it has no draw backs. What? its suppose to stop heat dissipation? yea it doesnt just slows it down. And people wonder why the game isnt so successful. If someone said the sky was blue a lot of you guys would scream it was red because tier rank elo nonsense lol

denial no. we just don't make ourselves dependent on a weapon system with the most hard counters.

[LordNothing]

Apteko, on 11 January 2022 - 08:42 AM, said:

"I cAn ShOoT tHeM aNyWaY!"

Sure, it is that you are unable to report their position to your team so they are not aware and can't choose positions or focus fire. But you certainly can shoot at any ecm mech.
Though ECMs are not the problem - er large lasers are. At least in faction play.
And every second player believing themselves to be an amazing sniper outside of it. The more "let me fit two er ppcs on my assault and for the most of the fight deal damage of a medium mech" pilots you get - the more you feel that your team is somehow weaker and match is imbalanced.

if one of those weapons is a ppc, its one shot and a target spotted from attracting every projectile the team has at its disposal.

i have more problems with erll combined with low visability. but distant erlls are easy to dodge. just fund a covered approach and get close enough to take away their advantage. a real sniper would laugh at them, because real snipers reposition after every shot.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 January 2022 - 02:32 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

pattonesque, on 11 January 2022 - 01:44 PM, said:

it's that too. but ultimately even when it's off stealth uses up tonnage/slots that could go to other things

~hmm~ I'd say tonnage is rather irrelevant there because stealth armor has the same weight as standard armor and it would appear that the general consensus for IS mechs is that the weight reductions of light ferro (5 slots less than stealth armor) aren't worth their slot costs; particularly when talking about the "big boys" that usually don't like having their crit space eaten up either. Weight reductions of ferro-fibrous comes with an even higher slot toll (2 more slots) that also tends to only be viable on mechs from the heavier weight classes under the stipulation that their build can afford both endosteel and ferro slot requirements.

=> I'd say it's neither really a matter of tonnage nor (raw) crit slot requirements but rather the fixed crit slot location requirements that make stealth less worthwhile in the longer run (and the higher tiers where people are less reliant on target locks and/or red diamond/rhombus indicators above mechs [regardless of lock-on weapons usage]).

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 11 January 2022 - 03:08 PM.

[Michael Abt]

From my observation "the" problem is UAVs. One could say it is an UAV disparity, but not in the way which team has more. It is more about which side is ignoring enemy UAVs. If you want to get an idea how the match will develop, don't look down onto the minimap, look up into the sky.

[pattonesque]

Der Geisterbaer, on 11 January 2022 - 02:54 PM, said:

~hmm~ I'd say tonnage is rather irrelevant there because stealth armor has the same weight as standard armor and it would appear that the general consensus for IS mechs is that the weight reductions of light ferro (5 slots less than stealth armor) aren't worth their slot costs; particularly when talking about the "big boys" that usually don't like having their crit space eaten up either. Weight reductions of ferro-fibrous comes with an even higher slot toll (2 more slots) that also tends to only be viable on mechs from the heavier weight classes under the stipulation that their build can afford both endosteel and ferro slot requirements.

=> I'd say it's neither really a matter of tonnage nor (raw) crit slot requirements but rather the fixed crit slot location requirements that make stealth less worthwhile in the longer run (and the higher tiers where people are less reliant on target locks and/or red diamond/rhombus indicators above mechs [regardless of lock-on weapons usage]).

I'd say stealth tends to be most useful on smaller mechs, which can afford to take both endo and ferro and need to give up ferro to take stealth

[Curccu]

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

weird how everyone in this community is in constant denial, personally i hate stealth armor as it has no draw backs. What? its suppose to stop heat dissipation? yea it doesnt just slows it down.

Stealth is pretty good on some heat neutral builds (dual gauss thanatos in some situations or narc light IMO), other builds... waste of tonnage / slots.

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

And people wonder why the game isnt so successful.

Yes game isn't successful because some people doesn't agree with you that stealth armor is OP clearly.

Eider, on 11 January 2022 - 03:09 AM, said:

If someone said the sky was blue a lot of you guys would scream it was red because tier rank elo nonsense lol

No actually opposite... delusional people say the sky is red and we would scream no it's not, it's blue. Because some of us doesn't believe in false claims and other **** that people cannot give any evidence of.

[Meep Meep]

pattonesque, on 11 January 2022 - 06:51 PM, said:

I'd say stealth tends to be most useful on smaller mechs, which can afford to take both endo and ferro and need to give up ferro to take stealth

I run a fair few ecm mechs but the only ones I run stealth on are the flea-20 and locust pirates bane. I have a stealth build for the cicada that is fun but I prefer it with normal ecm and triple lppc since the quirks go well with them and it caters more to my interest in sniping and flanking.

[Horseman]

Der Geisterbaer, on 11 January 2022 - 02:54 PM, said:

Weight reductions of ferro-fibrous comes with an even higher slot toll (2 more slots) that also tends to only be viable on mechs from the heavier weight classes under the stipulation that their build can afford both endosteel and ferro slot requirements.

Heavier mechs will usually take extra heat sinks instead of ferro.