12 replies to this topic

[SharDar]

These two videos are probably the most insightful I have ever seen!
https://youtu.be/uGDpZoBeFNw
https://youtu.be/8RwGbfUR0ww

He goes into extreme depth about how to use the Skill Tree and which items have the most effect on your mechs. Prior to seeing these, I have relied on Baradul's videos on YouTube, which are also great...but they disagree on some points. Baradul consistently says that you don't need armor skills for lights because speed is your armor. DATA says that all lights need armor skills because they benefit the most from them.

Basically, DATA says to use skills where they make the most difference. For example, agility skills are wasted on Heavy and Assault mechs because they are adding a percentage to the base agility, which is very low. Those same skills on an agile mech, like a Light or a Medium will make a MUCH bigger difference! So, I've been wasting Kinetic Burst on mechs like my Scorch because it starts with such a small amount of agility that the percentage difference doesn't improve it much. I was thinking that this thing is a slug and it needs all the agility it can get...which is bad thinking.

I have to rewatch these several times and take some notes. I hope you find these to be as useful as I did!

[RickySpanish]

Man every time I hear his voice I think of Nandor from What We Do In The Shadows

[w0qj]

Wow, many thanks for your (also DATA's) sharing!!

DATA's Skill Tree Tutorial (Part 1 +Part 2)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDpZoBeFNw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RwGbfUR0ww

Edited by w0qj, 14 January 2022 - 07:52 PM.

[Davegt27]

I like his "teach a man to fish" method

[Verilligo]

SharDar, on 14 January 2022 - 03:15 PM, said:

This is a cross-post for one I put in the New Player Help / Strategy Guides. I don't know how often people check that one, so I thought I'd put it here too. I also put one in there for DATA's suggestions for your video settings.

These two videos are probably the most insightful I have ever seen!
https://youtu.be/uGDpZoBeFNw
https://youtu.be/8RwGbfUR0ww

He goes into extreme depth about how to use the Skill Tree and which items have the most effect on your mechs. Prior to seeing these, I have relied on Baradul's videos on YouTube, which are also great...but they disagree on some points. Baradul consistently says that you don't need armor skills for lights because speed is your armor. DATA says that all lights need armor skills because they benefit the most from them.

Basically, DATA says to use skills where they make the most difference. For example, agility skills are wasted on Heavy and Assault mechs because they are adding a percentage to the base agility, which is very low. Those same skills on an agile mech, like a Light or a Medium will make a MUCH bigger difference! So, I've been wasting Kinetic Burst on mechs like my Scorch because it starts with such a small amount of agility that the percentage difference doesn't improve it much. I was thinking that this thing is a slug and it needs all the agility it can get...which is bad thinking.

I have to rewatch these several times and take some notes. I hope you find these to be as useful as I did!

His advice is generally on-point, but some details are not entirely correct and there are some elements one can disagree with fairly. His comment that lights get more out of armor and structure nodes is not exactly right, for instance. An Urbanmech K-9 gets exactly the same benefit as a Direwolf C does out of having full armor nodes: 13 points. The percentage numbers are considerably lower, but the actual benefit you gain is not necessarily any different. It depends on a per-mech basis as to whether a certain breakpoint exists for the investment you toss in. Lights do also have the advantage OF speed, though, so the combination of factors compounds.

I also question advising heat containment, but that was because heat containment was broken back when they adjusted how double heatsinks worked. I have not kept up with the times to know if they fixed the nodes back to rights or not.

Edited by Verilligo, 16 January 2022 - 09:31 AM.

[SharDar]

Verilligo, on 16 January 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

His advice is generally on-point, but some details are not entirely correct and there are some elements one can disagree with fairly. His comment that lights get more out of armor and structure nodes is not exactly right, for instance. An Urbanmech K-9 gets exactly the same benefit as a Direwolf C does out of having full armor nodes: 13 points. The percentage numbers are considerably lower, but the actual benefit you gain is not necessarily any different. It depends on a per-mech basis as to whether a certain breakpoint exists for the investment you toss in. Lights do also have the advantage OF speed, though, so the combination of factors compounds.

The Armor Hardening nodes are expressed as a percentage, and the light mechs have a higher percentage value. For example, my Piranha PIR-3 gets "+2.6%" per node, while my Marauder IIC "Scorch" MAD-IIC-SC only gets "+1.3%" With 10 Armor Hardening node, I can boost my armor 26% on my Piranha but only 13% on my Scorch. The base armor on my Piranha is 128, which I can then boost 33.28 to 161.28. The base armor on my Scorch is 460, which I can boost 59.8 to 519.8.

So, my assault mech gets a lower boost, both by percentage and by absolute amount. Please let me know if I've gotten any of this wrong. I hadn't been analyzing things this closely until I saw DATA's videos.

[Der Geisterbaer]

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

The Armor Hardening nodes are expressed as a percentage, and the light mechs have a higher percentage value.

Percentages without proper context end up to be deceptive.

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

For example, my Piranha PIR-3 gets "+2.6%" per node, while my Marauder IIC "Scorch" MAD-IIC-SC only gets "+1.3%".With 10 Armor Hardening node, I can boost my armor 26% on my Piranha but only 13% on my Scorch.

So fundamentally - potential deception included - the armor bonus of your PIR is 100% of the armor bonus that your Scorch receives per node or in reverse the Scorch only gets 50% of the armor bonus that a PIR gets.

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

The base armor on my Piranha is 128, which I can then boost 33.28 to 161.28. The base armor on my Scorch is 460, which I can boost 59.8 to 519.8.

But despite that 100% better armor bonus your PIR according to your own stats only gets an absolute armor increase of 33 (rounded down) armor points whereas the Scorch gets 59 (rounded down) points which is almost double of additional armor points that your PIR received.

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

So, my assault mech gets a lower boost, both by percentage and by absolute amount.

So no, your assault does get 50% of the PIR's armor boost in terms of raw percentage by skill nodes but in reality almost 180% in absolute bonus armor points. See how deceptive those percentages can be?

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

Please let me know if I've gotten any of this wrong.

You've certainly got things wrong there - particularly with regards to "absolute" numbers.

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

I hadn't been analyzing things this closely until I saw DATA's videos.

And you haven't quite understood what he showed you or where his comments are at least misleading if not proof that he himself is also falling into the pit traps of deceiving percentages to a certain degree.

[Verilligo]

SharDar, on 16 January 2022 - 10:13 AM, said:

The Armor Hardening nodes are expressed as a percentage, and the light mechs have a higher percentage value. For example, my Piranha PIR-3 gets "+2.6%" per node, while my Marauder IIC "Scorch" MAD-IIC-SC only gets "+1.3%" With 10 Armor Hardening node, I can boost my armor 26% on my Piranha but only 13% on my Scorch. The base armor on my Piranha is 128, which I can then boost 33.28 to 161.28. The base armor on my Scorch is 460, which I can boost 59.8 to 519.8.

So, my assault mech gets a lower boost, both by percentage and by absolute amount. Please let me know if I've gotten any of this wrong. I hadn't been analyzing things this closely until I saw DATA's videos.

The percentage is better on the Piranha, but I'm not sure where you're getting the "absolute amount" being the same. The PIR gets 33 points, the Scorch gets 59 points. That's more for the Scorch. I should have also been more specific with my example, I was speaking specifically with regards to the CT on both the K-9 and the DWF-C. It also seems like I was using an outdated skill sim and the armor nodes for assaults has actually improved, swaying things more in their favor. The Scorch also can get more than 59 points as its max armor is 554, not 460, I think you're not accounting for armor you've stripped from both mechs.

Regardless, it's incorrect to simply say that lights get more benefit because their percentage boost is higher. That percentage boost is working off a much smaller armor amount and generally smaller quirk boosts as well. The real value here is that any armor bonus for lights can amount to considerable improvements in survival as long as the light can duck and weave to spread and dodge damage. This is why the Atlas can be so tanky, it's not just that they have all the armor and quirks, they also have an incredible amount of agility to turn that damage wherever they want it to go. I'm pretty sure this is what D A T A is intending to get across, but mentally skimmed over.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Verilligo, on 16 January 2022 - 10:57 AM, said:

The Scorch also can get more than 59 points as its max armor is 554, not 460, I think you're not accounting for armor you've stripped from both mechs.

The differences are most likely not just the armor points he stripped (which will affect how much bonus armor is actually added since that is calculated from actual base armor with rounding occuring here and there) but the flat armor bonuses that either mech has on its hit locations. Example:

According to the GUI a PIR-1 has 138 points max base armor. However, if you fully max out its armor without any survival nodes you'll find that you end up with 180 armor points in total (7 x 6 bonus armor). In the same vein the Scorch has 524 max base armor and adds a combined total 28 points of bonus armor to its side torsos.

Verilligo, on 16 January 2022 - 10:57 AM, said:

The real value here is that any armor bonus for lights can amount to considerable improvements in survival as long as the light can duck and weave to spread and dodge damage.

Indeed the key takeaway is that any additional absolute armor point (as low as a singular point on a location) will make it easier / more probable for a Light mech to survive a tad longer once it cannot dodge the damage and thus has to soak / spread the damage accross zones.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 January 2022 - 10:36 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

bear in mind that there's many aspects of the skilltree, and that maxing armor on a light caters to a certain playstyle, while others benefit from a different tree.


easy example: in a target rich environment (read: you still have a (semi)active and (semi)alive team around), it is easier to get into the reds backs to kill off some mech(s). here some burntime nodes, range, speed etc all come into play.

otoh getting in their backs is a completely moot point once you're the lone survivor on your side, because you just sat it out in some corner; at some point you'll have to go in and kill a lot of damaged guys up-front.. that's an environment more armor is generally a good thing.

not my style.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 16 January 2022 - 12:40 PM.

[SharDar]

Yup, I screwed up the comparison on the absolute amount. The Scorch got a higher absolute boost of 59 instead of 33. But I think that makes a bigger difference on my Piranha, which is terribly fragile without this. I guess this is the beauty of the skill tree, which allows us all to pick what makes the most sense for our mechs and style of play.

[Ekson Valdez]

The Discussion this thread has been merged into the original topic in Guides & Strategies.

Please don't open different threads about the same topic. Thank you!

[w0qj]

At long last, DATA has finally posted an in depth review of the New Skill Tree 2022, as below:

A) Secrets of the New Skill Tree

B ) Optimal Skill Tree Part 1/2

Edited by w0qj, 21 July 2022 - 04:24 AM.