130 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 09:16 AM, said:

AT LEAST there could a WARNING: "You are now getting an unbalanced match!"

mwo pubbies already love giving up and not trying if they believe a match to be too hard, let's not give them (you) more excuses

[ScrapIron Prime]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

AT LAST there is no other option to make a little optimizing the algorithms. HECK that's the job of the MMO-Makers!

I think the point here that you're avoiding is that the match maker has ALREADY been optimized. With so few active players its extremely difficult to make a match maker that never pits you against a superior opponent, else those opponents will never have anyone to play.

Is there room for improvement? probably.
Will that make matches "better"? probably not.
Is PGI listening to the cries to do something proactive with the matchmaker? probably not.
Is that because no model comes to mind that would solve this issue? probably.

But if you want one... step one would be to detail a superior model, providing the math and examples. Step two would be selling that idea to the only people PGI takes any kind of feedback from... the Cauldron members. If you can design a better algorithm and sell it to them, it might come to pass. And the less of a complete restructuring of code it would need to be, the more likely PGI would be to implement it in the game's current "maintenance mode only."

[Nightbird]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 January 2022 - 10:21 AM, said:

I think the point here that you're avoiding is that the match maker has ALREADY been optimized. With so few active players its extremely difficult to make a match maker that never pits you against a superior opponent, else those opponents will never have anyone to play.

Is there room for improvement? probably.
Will that make matches "better"? probably not.
Is PGI listening to the cries to do something proactive with the matchmaker? probably not.
Is that because no model comes to mind that would solve this issue? probably.

But if you want one... step one would be to detail a superior model, providing the math and examples. Step two would be selling that idea to the only people PGI takes any kind of feedback from... the Cauldron members. If you can design a better algorithm and sell it to them, it might come to pass. And the less of a complete restructuring of code it would need to be, the more likely PGI would be to implement it in the game's current "maintenance mode only."

Negative, PGI is beyond persuasion. This thread lays out mathematical and business reasons to fix it, but no action. Dead horse is dead.

https://mwomercs.com...th-in-business/

[Seelenlos]

Nightbird, on 25 January 2022 - 10:38 AM, said:

Negative, PGI is beyond persuasion. This thread lays out mathematical and business reasons to fix it, but no action. Dead horse is dead.

https://mwomercs.com...th-in-business/

How do you find such precious threads from a bad forum-search engine!????
That alone puts you to the 10%

[Nightbird]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

How do you find such precious threads from a bad forum-search engine!????
That alone puts you to the 10%

You don't find threads in this forum unless you are the author lol.

[pbiggz]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 09:16 AM, said:

AT LEAST there could a WARNING: "You are now getting an unbalanced match!"

You're not being victimized by the match maker, even when it has to open release valves to make you a match. Stop pretending you're being personally singled out for "unbalanced matches".

[Michael Abt]

katoult, on 25 January 2022 - 12:57 AM, said:

(...)

The below is a recent mathematically properly balanced and distributed Tier 1-3 match. The extremes did not influence it.

On the losing team there is only one player breaking 300 damage, and four players with sub 100 damage.

On the winning team I see Z Paradox in his NARC Raven, outdamaging more than half of the players on the losing team. Since he managed to score a kill I dare to assume that the player with 1 damage was DC and he snacked him.

In reality that match was a 12v11 ending in a 12-0 roflstomp which is not exactly a balanced outcome. I could argue that due to the DC it wasn't balanced, but that is misleading.

Actually I do like the screenshot because it made me understand that two of the current issues are communication and expectation.

The general consense is that we want balanced matches, but in reality people are talking about two different things.

We had several threads about the MM being aweful, with screenshots of bad matches. Their expectation of a balanced match was a balanced outcome, or at least not completely onesided matches. They draw the conclusion that because the outcome was unbalanced the match itself was from the start. They start looking for explanations, and it boils down to the point that the MM isn't working. Just look at the comment in the screenshot.

On the other side you have players who understand a balanced match as a mathematical intake. They look at the players involved and don't see any issues because it all adds up, down to the result.

Simplified, in my opinion the big mistake is the expectation that a balanced match playerwise must result in a balanced outcome. Just because the intake was mathematically good doesn't mean the match will be good, just as it is not correct to assume that because the outcome was bad the MM isn't working.

Since our playerbase is rather small it would be tricky to make the MM more balancing on both sides, and it would be paid in waiting time for matches.

[Seelenlos]

Michael Abt, on 25 January 2022 - 11:31 AM, said:

Since our playerbase is rather small it would be tricky to make the MM more balancing on both sides, and it would be paid in waiting time for matches.

ONe thing you all miss, only in a blanced match, players can learn !

[katoult]

Michael Abt, on 25 January 2022 - 11:31 AM, said:

Since he managed to score a kill I dare to assume that the player with 1 damage was DC and he snacked him.

There were no DCs. Z Paradox tag-teamed through the center with BlackDreamer in order to provide a forward narc-and-call spearhead at the inner forward flank of the hammer on the right formed by the woosh boats which then simply rotated inwards driving the red team onto the (somewhat anemic) dakka boat anvil on the left.

You know, the way MWO used to be when there was still proper teamplay.

Michael Abt, on 25 January 2022 - 11:31 AM, said:

Since our playerbase is rather small it would be tricky to make the MM more balancing on both sides, and it would be paid in waiting time for matches.

I'm one of those guys who sits 40 minutes in faction queue (... in NA primetime) only to then encounter a 2WAR stack that either roflstomps the PUGs or simply throws because they don't like the map/mode.

[Ssamout]

One thing many players miss or cannot comprehend is that even if we had the most perfect matchmaker possible, we would still get stomps and one sided matches. Its just the nature of this game to snowball easily to one side.

[Curccu]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 10:46 AM, said:

How do you find such precious threads from a bad forum-search engine!????

Google

[pattonesque]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 11:53 AM, said:

ONe thing you all miss, only in a blanced match, players can learn !

nah, players can learn in any match. many *choose* not to. This isn't like other FPS games where you get domed by a headshot from someone with incredible reactions that you never saw. this game is slow with high TTK and you can often figure out what went wrong p. easily

[MW Waldorf Statler]

many players will not learn ...if I don't win in my assualt or light, then it's the others' fault and not mine, because I chose a class that I don't know.

[PocketYoda]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 January 2022 - 04:15 AM, said:

Terrible idea. Imagine two T5 players who start playing the game together. One is slightly better than the other and gets to T4 first, so the matchmaker says they can no longer group together. That would be stupid.

The game state is far more important than new player feels at this current time. It sucks as i said but it would fix the exploitation some what.

[Curccu]

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:29 AM, said:

The game state is far more important than new player feels at this current time. It sucks as i said but it would fix the exploitation some what.

How common is this exploitation vs players just wanting to play with friends.

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 26 January 2022 - 04:49 AM, said:

How common is this exploitation vs players just wanting to play with friends.

Its not an exploit, and it never was. The premise of Nomad's accusations is entirely false.

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:29 AM, said:

The game state is far more important than new player feels at this current time. It sucks as i said but it would fix the exploitation some what.

At a time when the game is finally growing again, kneecapping its already problematic new player experience just so you can feel better about yourself is a terrible trade off.

Also do not think that your attempt to equate "the game state" with "what samial wants" has gone unnoticed. Every post you make smacks of double speak. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth and we all know it. You're pretending there's a widespread conspiracy to farm low tier players (there isn't, that's a lie) and pretending that your personal ideas to fix those "exploits" (the ones that would specifically make the game conveniently next to unplayable for anyone you don't personally like) are an absolute necessity.

Lies nested inside of lies, spoken with a straight face to trick people who don't know better.

[Xeroize]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 11:53 AM, said:

ONe thing you all miss, only in a blanced match, players can learn !

It doesn't take a balanced match to learn/improve. Heck, in many cases it doesn't even take playing a match to learn/improve. Most of the basics (heat management, torso twisting, knowing the maps, mouse accuracy, building performant mechs, etc) can be taught either outside the game, or practiced in a simple private lobby with a friend. Even just spectating a good player after death can make quite the difference over time.

Some of my best games (and best learning lessons) were in games where we were wildly outclassed and still put up a good fight (12-9 for example).

[ScrapIron Prime]

Seelenlos, on 25 January 2022 - 11:53 AM, said:

ONe thing you all miss, only in a blanced match, players can learn !

No, doing okay does not teach you much, because you have no reason to change. Failure... failure is a good teacher. Failure tells you that what you are doing is somehow not enough. One can either accept this and learn or shy from it and make forum posts.

Nomad Tech, on 26 January 2022 - 04:29 AM, said:

The game state is far more important than new player feels at this current time. It sucks as i said but it would fix the exploitation some what.

The game state is due to the low population. Driving away potential new players by telling them they cannot play with their friends will not solve that.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 26 January 2022 - 06:28 AM, said:

Its not an exploit, and it never was. The premise of Nomad's accusations is entirely false.

Well yes I know but I wanted answer from him with loads of water tight evidence and facts.

[knight-of-ni]

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 January 2022 - 06:54 AM, said:

No, doing okay does not teach you much, because you have no reason to change. Failure... failure is a good teacher. Failure tells you that what you are doing is somehow not enough. One can either accept this and learn or shy from it and make forum posts.

Exactly. I was about to give the same response. As with many things in life, one can learn a lot from failure.

Personally, I like to think one of my best talents in life is doing something the wrong way. Combine that with persistence, and I fail so often that I eventually learn how to succeed. Sometimes that takes years of patience, even in MWO.