96 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

justcallme A S H, on 26 January 2022 - 07:38 PM, said:

If the US has given guns out to people that can't understand something as simple that lights are not OP...Well them...

Well, the 2nd Amendment doesn't work that way, as the government is not obligated to provide you with armaments, merely to not infringe on you obtaining arms (technically only arms which a person can bear, which rules out things like the GAU-8!). As a contrasting example, the right to a Trial by Jury is indeed a case where the government is required to provide you with jurors... meaning that the government can compel others to serve as jurors.

It does seem that most Americans seem to view their rights only in terms of "freedom" from government interference / infringement, while ignoring the rights which place obligations and responsibilities upon every citizen. Hence so many Americans refusing to wear masks in the middle of a pandemic.

I've used the above example of Trial by Jury (an example of a "positive right"), combined with the phrase in the Constitution about how we are supposed to "provide for the common defense" to argue that the government is well within its power to compel mask-wearing. If we can be compelled to serve on a jury to ensure a fellow citizen's right to a Trial by Jury, then it makes sense that we can be compelled to wear masks to provide for the common defense against a pandemic.

Anyways, I didn't see the thread creator complain about Lights? I know that oftentimes complaints about MGs are related to complaints about Lights being OP, but I didn't see the thread creator complain about Lights...

[Der Geisterbaer]

YueFei, on 26 January 2022 - 11:08 PM, said:

Anyways, I didn't see the thread creator complain about Lights? I know that oftentimes complaints about MGs are related to complaints about Lights being OP, but I didn't see the thread creator complain about Lights...

Not outright and - at least for now - not within this particular thread but the creator of this thread has raised those concerns about the 'logic' concerning the lack of heat / jamming on BT machine guns in at least one other thread that indeed deals / dealt with the alleged OP-ness of Lights. So I guess that's where one could have gotten the impression.

[MPhoenix]

justcallme A S H, on 26 January 2022 - 07:38 PM, said:

If the US has given guns out to people that can't understand something as simple that lights are not OP...Well them...

Fascinating response to a thread involving some interesting discussion, theorizing and even light humor.

Intriguing that your first thought is 'What kind of snide comment can I post here?'

BTW, we aren't given guns here, we do this neat thing called 'work', earn money and then buy them.

You know what else we don't do? Surrender them to the government so we can be dragged from our home and placed in 'covid camps'.

But hey, you do you.

[Dogstar]

@OP You're making the classic mistake of trying to equate Battletech physics to real world physics.

There is no comparison because Battletech started as a hex-based boardgame game with stats designed to balance for playing giant robots in a tabletop. So nothing makes sense other than compared to other in-game mechanics, and it gets worse as soon as you start reading the lore surrounding those game mechanics.

The best thing to do is 'let it go', relax, and enjoy the stompy robots.

[Captain Caveman DE]

MPhoenix, on 27 January 2022 - 12:26 AM, said:

You know what else we don't do? Surrender them to the government so we can be dragged from our home and placed in 'covid camps'.

oh here we go..

[pattonesque]

Captain Caveman DE, on 27 January 2022 - 06:25 AM, said:

oh here we go..

legit incredible

[ScrapIron Prime]

YueFei, on 26 January 2022 - 01:46 PM, said:

That should be a slam-dunk win in court against San Jose. It's the equivalent of a Voting Poll Tax, and there's plenty of precedent on that being a BIG no-no on an enumerated Right.

I think the defense of it will hinge on the fact that property rights are covered under the 5th and 14th amendments, and no one has ever found that mandating taxes or insurance on property has ever been considered "infringing" upon those rights. Owning real estate or motor vehicles is a protected right, and taxing and insuring them has never been struck down. This is going to be one long and fascinating court fight.

Which... should really move into the Off-Topic forum.

[MPhoenix]

Dogstar, on 27 January 2022 - 01:03 AM, said:

@OP You're making the classic mistake of trying to equate Battletech physics to real world physics.

There is no comparison because Battletech started as a hex-based boardgame game with stats designed to balance for playing giant robots in a tabletop. So nothing makes sense other than compared to other in-game mechanics, and it gets worse as soon as you start reading the lore surrounding those game mechanics.

The best thing to do is 'let it go', relax, and enjoy the stompy robots.

Yeah, I know, in the end there's really no way to reconcile real world engineering and physics to games. But part of the fun is brainstorming possibilities, how could we make that work or achieve that same results by a different means.

Captain Caveman DE, on 27 January 2022 - 06:25 AM, said:

oh here we go..

pattonesque, on 27 January 2022 - 06:43 AM, said:

legit incredible

I'm just having a fun and interesting discussion, if someone wants to try to sidetrack things with unrelated snide remarks and sarcastic comments well I can play that game too.

I'd rather just go back to discussing the feasibility real world versions of in game weapons but that wasn't my call to make.

[pattonesque]

MPhoenix, on 27 January 2022 - 09:53 AM, said:

Yeah, I know, in the end there's really no way to reconcile real world engineering and physics to games. But part of the fun is brainstorming possibilities, how could we make that work or achieve that same results by a different means.

I'm just having a fun and interesting discussion, if someone wants to try to sidetrack things with unrelated snide remarks and sarcastic comments well I can play that game too.

I'd rather just go back to discussing the feasibility real world versions of in game weapons but that wasn't my call to make.

"guys ignore the volcanically weird thing I just casually tossed into the discussion"

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yes, let's get back to topic... discussing space magic tech weapons!

as for the volcanically weird stuff... here's a topic I just started in the Off Topic board. let's take that there so this doesn't get locked or redacted to death!

[Der Geisterbaer]

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:28 PM, said:

Are you going to grasp the concept behind casual thought games, extrapolation and just plain curiosity?

No, of course I won't grasp those concepts ... most likely because in your OP you made certain inferrences about the "true" nature of BT machine guns and then treated those inferrences as fact in order to pose the main question within your "thought game" ... presented in a "tone" that - at least for me and by the looks of it for others as well - didn't quite transport the intent that you are now laying claim to.

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:28 PM, said:

Actually it was your post that got me thinking and going down the rabbit trail of 'what if/howdoes?'.

Well, in that case I now have the confirmation that you indeed somewhat failed with the concepts I mentioned by asking for a "scientific" explaination for something that ...

• ... I already told you was subject to a massive degree of abstraction
  
• ... occurs within a "science-fiction" setting where the emphasis is largely on fiction
  
• ... is even stronger shaped by the necessities of playability as a table top war game (= gameplay) than by its fiction or the abstracted combat model

Although this might verge on me comitting a black and white fallacy I'm inclined to say that had you properly understood the things I wrote in those original postings you would not have gone onto that what you're now calling a "rabbit trail" but instead would simply have accepted the established fact that for gameplay purposes of Battletech and Mechwarrior games of the past 38 years "machine guns" on mechs (and vehicles) normally do not produce noteworthy levels of heat and are not subject to any jamming mechanisms and would simply have gone with "suspension of disbelief".


Side note: Within the accompanying fiction / narrative of Battletech / Mechwarrior those weapons do in fact still overheat / jam.

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:28 PM, said:

I've been gaming since the old artillery game on a TRS-80, I'd love to find that simple little game redone as it was for Windows.

You could of course get yourself an emulator for the TRS-80 or a Commodore C-64 and search for either "Artillery" (TSR-80) or "Artillery Duel" (C-64) on one of the many abandonware sites.

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:28 PM, said:

I've had fun with thought exercises about space ships, starfighters, transcontinental travelers, why does a monkey have it's own island and numerous other aspects of gaming.

And while I have obsessed over such topics myself - mostly with regards to Pen & Paper roleplaying games that have tech-related settings - I usually didn't go above and beyond in attempting to find explainations for stuff that - at least to me - clearly wasn't shaped by attempts of making those games work with high levels of realism.

MPhoenix, on 26 January 2022 - 02:28 PM, said:

We're not solving the world's problems or fixing the universe we're just having fun stretching our brains on theoretical topics.

Actually by the looks of it you are trying to solve / explain perceived "world problems" and "fix the universe" .. it's just not the world / universe that you as a human being are living in but rather the world(s) / universe that is called "Battletech" / "Mechwarrior". You certainly can do that but I'd say that you're somewhat wasting your time there and your chosen presentation of the topic itself didn't help with getting people on board with "just having fun strechting our brains" but instead made most throw their virtual hands up in the air and mentally go "not this again".

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 27 January 2022 - 12:04 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

MPhoenix, on 27 January 2022 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm just having a fun and interesting discussion, if someone wants to try to sidetrack things with unrelated snide remarks and sarcastic comments well I can play that game too.

I'd rather just go back to discussing the feasibility real world versions of in game weapons but that wasn't my call to make.

I wouldn't know where to start a "fun and interesting discussion" after guns, covid camps and tinfoil hats, but pls go on ..

[MPhoenix]

Quote

in your OP you made certain inferrences...
at least for me...
the concepts I mentioned...
I already told you...
I'm inclined to say...
accepted the established fact...
I usually didn't go above and beyond...
made most throw their virtual hands up in the air...

I think I've found where your issue is with.. well we'll stick to this thread/topic.

'I', 'I told you', 'established facts', etc.

The problem seems to be your insistence that your input is inherently unquestionable, incontrovertible and the final say on a topic.

Sorry, your opinion means the world to you and precisely **** to the rest of the world, just like mine and everyone else's.

Believe me, just because you've posted something doesn't mean I won't continue to contemplate, theorize and just simply enjoy the act of extrapolating the real life possibilities of sci-fi/fantasy tools, weapons and such.

If you can't handle the fact that someone doesn't hold your opinion and gospel fact there's a great tool that is easy to use. It's called the 'BACK' button on your browser. Click it and go on about your day, you'll find yourself a much happier person.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Verilligo, on 27 January 2022 - 02:54 PM, said:

[redacted]

True, he's advocating for MGs to have jam chances because real life. He wants a nerf. If you disagree... reasons!

Speaking of which, i disagree. we have jam chances in the game because Battletech has jam chances for UAC and RAC weapons. And no other weapons, so no other weapons have them.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 28 January 2022 - 12:35 AM.
quote clean-up

[MPhoenix]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 January 2022 - 02:59 PM, said:

True, he's advocating for MGs to have jam chances because real life. He wants a nerf. If you disagree... reasons!

Speaking of which, i disagree. we have jam chances in the game because Battletech has jam chances for UAC and RAC weapons. And no other weapons, so no other weapons have them.

Actually I'm not advocating for a jam chance in the game, my original post was to try to use this as a way of thinking 'How would they do it (non-jamming MGs) and how would we do it?'
Kind of a 'Well, in theory they do 'X' but 'X' isn't real but what if we could achieve the same results by doing 'Y' and 'Z' in this order?'
May not amount to anything but it's fun to contemplate.

[Scout Derek]

Boring Topic riddled with Off-topic rhetoric by OP. Not new or surprising.

[YueFei]

MPhoenix, on 27 January 2022 - 12:26 AM, said:

You know what else we don't do? Surrender them to the government so we can be dragged from our home and placed in 'covid camps'.

Uh, you're supposed to put the foil on trays to bake/broil/braise food, not wear it on your head!

[Noodlejr]

I think think the biggest gripe with mgs is the face hugging. Many experienced players can utilize their nerves to stop mg rushes like that. What if instead of jams or heat for mgs cuz I could see “space magic” having some cooling or advanced feeds, make them like small lasers? Give them a burn duration as if they are fired in bursts not just one continuous feed? Damage might have to be upped to compensate but it would make the ankle biters have to strafe more instead of hug?

TLDR Make mgs a ballistic laserno heat and a CD up dmg

Edited by Noodlejr, 27 January 2022 - 09:39 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

if the MGs use caseless ammunition, there is less chance of jamming, even mechanically, theoretical.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 27 January 2022 - 10:24 PM.

[Curccu]

Noodlejr, on 27 January 2022 - 08:24 PM, said:

I think think the biggest gripe with mgs is the face hugging. Many experienced players can utilize their nerves to stop mg rushes like that. What if instead of jams or heat for mgs cuz I could see “space magic” having some cooling or advanced feeds, make them like small lasers? Give them a burn duration as if they are fired in bursts not just one continuous feed? Damage might have to be upped to compensate but it would make the ankle biters have to strafe more instead of hug?

TLDR Make mgs a ballistic laserno heat and a CD up dmg

I could agree them being burst weapons but not generating heat, and this would be buff to MGs.
How would you like piranha to shoot you with 12 small lasers (without heat) and 3 micro pulses.. 54 damage heat neutral alpha