75 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 03 February 2022 - 02:56 AM, said:

Could you explain what does this favorite meme thing of your "shouting down" in your language means? That someone is quoting yours or someone elses post and doesn't agree? Am I shouting you down now? if not....

Cannot see any exclamation marks from Ash in that #3 post... or shouting emojis.

Am I shouting you down now?

Just curious.

Alex Afrasiabi, the (thankfully ) former creative lead on world of warcraft, was famously quoted saying "no negativity in the dojo", which people took to mean he wanted positive discussion.

Hindsight has shown that he conflated negativity and criticism. He made some very weird choices while in his position, and he wasn't interested in counterarguments.

Dave is conflating criticism with attacks. Its a surefire way to shut down any and all honest debate and he knows it. He had a dumb take, he got called on it, and now he's saying the people who called him on it are shouting him down.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2022 - 06:34 AM, said:

Dave is conflating criticism with attacks. Its a surefire way to shut down any and all honest debate and he knows it. He had a dumb take, he got called on it, and now he's saying the people who called him on it are shouting him down.

Luckily almost everyone knows he is not looking for honest debate or any kind of debate.

It's just funny that almost all of his 1st post in each individual thread include this "shout him/someone down", I think he should add it to his signature.

[Davegt27]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2022 - 06:34 AM, said:

Alex Afrasiabi, the (thankfully ) former creative lead on world of warcraft, was famously quoted saying "no negativity in the dojo", which people took to mean he wanted positive discussion.

Hindsight has shown that he conflated negativity and criticism. He made some very weird choices while in his position, and he wasn't interested in counterarguments.

Dave is conflating criticism with attacks. Its a surefire way to shut down any and all honest debate and he knows it. He had a dumb take, he got called on it, and now he's saying the people who called him on it are shouting him down.

its a reoccurring theme with Ash and his kids the lead designer who has access to all data
says these are my finding

Ash appears and says something different (oh no Paul your wrong)

so just like these last few posts we are now in a counter productive direction

I had already said that I could be wrong in my post

but here is more info again from the lead Dev of MWO Paul

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/

Quote

So, the 4 weeks are up. I want to start by sharing some findings.

The last time I communicated I set the Match Maker configs (release valves) in this manner and left it for a while...




What I didn't tell you was that two Fridays ago after reading all the comments and watching some vids the community made, I made this adjustment to see what would happen over a longer period of time:



Basically I decreased the weight class valve to no longer allow it to open up completely. I also reduced the allowable Tier spread and increased how long the MM would wait until it added another Tier to the viable team composition.

As you can see, the Average Team PSR values narrowed drastically between any two opposing teams. The Weight Class balance would open up to maximum first, then eventually Tier separation would open up. This is why at times in the above graphic will still have tight Tier separation but the Weight Class balance would be a little lop sided.

These settings seem to be working well in terms of finding a relatively happy medium.

* Matches are still kicking off much faster than before.
* Tier/PSR separation is drastically tighter than before.
* Weight class balancing is also much tighter than before.

On another note, when we just combined the queues, stomp rates went up by 5%. With the current settings in the match maker, that went back down to 1%.

It is because of these results, [color=orange]we have decided to keep the current combined queue.[/color]

Paul even puts up a graphic and in that graphic we see match making speed is one of the factors

we all been on team speak or whatever and wait times is often talked about

a ton of players say that they don't like long wait times

with Ash and his kids everything is reduced into a side argument

one player calls it a echo chamber and refuses to go anywhere near the MWO forums


its very clear wait times is a major consideration that PGI is/was using
even the blow-off uses a time factor
all this is to reduce match wait times

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

its a reoccurring theme with Ash and his kids the lead designer who has access to all data
says these are my finding

Ash appears and says something different (oh no Paul your wrong)

so just like these last few posts we are now in a counter productive direction

I had already said that I could be wrong in my post

but here is more info again from the lead Dev of MWO Paul

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/



Paul even puts up a graphic and in that graphic we see match making speed is one of the factors

we all been on team speak or whatever and wait times is often talked about

a ton of players say that they don't like long wait times

with Ash and his kids everything is reduced into a side argument

one player calls it a echo chamber and refuses to go anywhere near the MWO forums


its very clear wait times is a major consideration that PGI is/was using
even the blow-off uses a time factor
all this is to reduce match wait times

Every matchmaker in every game ever has to balance time taken to form matches with how strict its following its own parameters. For example, while our match maker keeps Tier 5s and Tier 1s pretty separated (and this is justifiable, and should continue to happen) it often throws out weight balancing to keep those players separate. That's why you often see matches with a mismatch in the number of assaults. A match with unbalanced weight and balanced tiers is far better than a match with perfectly balanced weight tonnage, and unbalanced PSR.

Im not even sure what your point is now except to be here and be smarmy about something?? Being contrarian doesn't make you look thoughtful.

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 02 February 2022 - 03:48 PM, said:

that PGI had/has a game maker and not a match maker
the primary goal of this game maker was/is to kick off matches as fast as possible
sure they tweaked there game maker but it was never a good match maker --ever!

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

Paul even puts up a graphic and in that graphic we see match making speed is one of the factors

its very clear wait times is a major consideration that PGI is/was using
even the blow-off uses a time factor
all this is to reduce match wait times

"
* Matches are still kicking off much faster than before.
* Tier/PSR separation is drastically tighter than before.
* Weight class balancing is also much tighter than before.

On another note, when we just combined the queues, stomp rates went up by 5%. With the current settings in the match maker, that went back down to 1%.


"

By Paul in the Pauls post you quoted

Read carefully your 1st post I quoted....specially this next part.

Davegt27, on 02 February 2022 - 03:48 PM, said:

that PGI had/has a game maker and not a match maker
the primary goal of this game maker was/is to kick off matches as fast as possible

Read carefully your 2nd post I quoted....
See the picture and check where the balance cross is on matchmaker.

Read carefully your 1st post I quoted again.

Stop shouting ASH down.

[justcallme A S H]

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

its a reoccurring theme with Ash and his kids the lead designer who has access to all data
says these are my finding

Ash appears and says something different (oh no Paul your wrong)

so just like these last few posts we are now in a counter productive direction

I had already said that I could be wrong in my post

PGI have a long history of misinterpreting their own data. Anyone that has been around a while knows this. That isn't an attack or a sleight either by the way.

Consequentially Paul, the ex-lead Dev, also said that groups would take the highest Tier of the player in a group. We, the players, have proven that to be incorrect and that it takes the average.

To assume Paul correctly understood what he was looking at then when we, the players, had regularly proven otherwise is not smart at all. It shows a pretty gross lack of basic understanding. Again my post in that thread is very simple to understand.

Another example? What was the very reason Cauldron was brought onboard? Because we understand the game better than the people with the data.

And yes you are very wrong by saying there is only a Game Maker and not a Match Maker. I showed you this with links, you've even quoted the links... Do you not see you're contradicting your own argument here?

You're the only one making this counter productive by literally being a stick in the mud. Give it a rest already.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 03 February 2022 - 11:09 AM.

[R Valentine]

I'd be all for this if it didn't totally and utterly butcher the new player experience, which it would. And we need every last new player we can get.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Consequentially Paul, the ex-lead Dev, also said that groups would take the highest Tier of the player in a group. We, the players, have proven that to be incorrect and that it takes the average.

did you ever consider that PGI could change that parameter to work either way
and that Paul was not interested in wrestling with you on the forums

Quote

And yes you are very wrong by saying there is only a Game Maker and not a Match Maker. I showed you this with links, you've even quoted the links... Do you not see you're contradicting your own argument here?

for some reason you think I am here to argue

I still think its a game maker, so what
what does it do --it makes games
some call Polar high lands Polar Lurm land --so what

only thing you showed is that you think your the god of MWO and what you say is gospel

I just happen to disagree

so here we are again off subject on small details
the whole idea that you think you know more then PGI's devs is crazy

(they are just not interested in arguing with you)

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

did you ever consider that PGI could change that parameter to work either way
and that Paul was not interested in wrestling with you on the forums




for some reason you think I am here to argue

I still think its a game maker, so what
what does it do --it makes games
some call Polar high lands Polar Lurm land --so what

only thing you showed is that you think your the god of MWO and what you say is gospel

I just happen to disagree

so here we are again off subject on small details
the whole idea that you think you know more then PGI's devs is crazy

(they are just not interested in arguing with you)

All you've proven is you aren't interested in debates, because you "happen to disagree" even when presented with information that refutes your claims, not that I can figure out what your claims even are...

[justcallme A S H]

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

did you ever consider that PGI could change that parameter to work either way
and that Paul was not interested in wrestling with you on the forums

Did you even wonder why he would start threads on the forum and leave them open to discussion if he did not want, discussion?

When the Devs do not want discussion they lock the threads.

I mean because of 1-2 of the PSR threads I linked you - Paul put the patch on HOLD because of the feedback received within the threads.

Stop being a stick in the mud Dave. It's looking a bit ridiculous.

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

Spoiler

for some reason you think I am here to argue

I still think its a game maker, so what
what does it do --it makes games
some call Polar high lands Polar Lurm land --so what

only thing you showed is that you think your the god of MWO and what you say is gospel

I just happen to disagree

so here we are again off subject on small details
the whole idea that you think you know more then PGI's devs is crazy

(they are just not interested in arguing with you)

Honestly I don't think any of us understand what you are replying for at this point? Especially when you keep undermining your own standpoint/arguments each time. It's a bit odd.


I mean you can incorrectly call it a Game Maker all you like. Just remember no amount of repeating it is going to make it true.

Good to see that hatred still ooozing out. Let it gooooo.

[Davegt27]

Honestly I don't think any of us understand what you are replying for at this point? Especially when you keep undermining your own standpoint/arguments each time. It's a bit odd.

what stand point is that ?

I don't think you know
your just arguing to argue

I did get a few good laughs out of it

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

for some reason you think I am here to argue

For some reason you are still here arguing?

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

I still think its a game maker, so what
what does it do --it makes games
some call Polar high lands Polar Lurm land --so what

You can call it donkey balls but its still matchmaker, most people are able to understand difference between nickname lets say "Cute Fox" but they still understand it is "Kit fox". But instead of you for some reason have need to try to proof.. (Well not proof because you don't proof anything just claim and shout down.) that this game doesn't have matchmaker instead just game maker as you tried to describe it.

Davegt27, on 04 February 2022 - 12:08 AM, said:

what stand point is that ?

I don't think you know
your just arguing to argue

Arguing against your false claims of matchmaker/gamemaker.
Saying something in the post and in that same post providing evidence against what you wrote earlier in same post...

Davegt27, on 03 February 2022 - 08:13 AM, said:

its a reoccurring theme with Ash and his kids Dave the lead designer who has access to all data
says these are my finding

Ash Dave appears and says something different (oh no Paul your wrong)

so just like these last few posts we are now in a counter productive direction

I had already said that I could be wrong in my post

but here is more info again from the lead Dev of MWO Paul

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/

Paul even puts up a graphic and in that graphic we see match making speed is one of the factors

Touché

PGI has said its matchmaker and provided info how it is supposed to work, why are you shouting down PGI and saying it's not matchmaker

Davegt27, on 04 February 2022 - 12:08 AM, said:

I did get a few good laughs out of it

If you wanna laugh at your own silliness that is perfectly ok. Some even say it's healthy.

[Davegt27]

sorry I did not respond to the other post

its hard to respond to multiple shout downs

so what in my posts is bothering you this time ?

I am willing to pay you to leave me alone

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 04 February 2022 - 07:55 AM, said:

sorry I did not respond to the other post

its hard to respond to multiple shout downs

Now that this shout down term has been explained to me I think you are the only one here trying to shout down people.

Davegt27, on 04 February 2022 - 07:55 AM, said:

so what in my posts is bothering you this time ?

I am willing to pay you to leave me alone

It should be pretty clear if you read the post, if my English is so bad that it's not understandable please tell.

[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 06 February 2022 - 11:35 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

At least we seem to have worked out what "shouted down" means.

Shouted Down: is when someone makes a post that is untrue/inaccurate (or completely made up nonsense) and is then proven/discounted with some evidence, factual discussion or logic.

[pbiggz]

justcallme A S H, on 04 February 2022 - 01:15 PM, said:

At least we seem to have worked out what "shouted down" means.

Shouted Down: is when someone makes a post that is untrue/inaccurate (or completely made up nonsense) and is then proven/discounted with some evidence, factual discussion or logic.

Shouted down is when ash mean

[East Indy]

To the original post, re: wanting to see players in other tiers: if there were secondary lobby balancing for a pure solo queue, you could perhaps set teams up representing broad skill levels. E.g., 1-1-2-2-2-3-3-3-3-4-4-5. Something like that, and you'd restrict this matchmaking to a semi-regular or weekly event; an "open bowling" kind of experience to allow more varied groups without obligating the entire game to it.

[justcallme A S H]

At a raw concept level, sure it would work.

Once you factor in though how fast a solid T1 player is going to nuke a T4-T5 player in terms of skill, awareness, game knowledge, build quality etc.

No one is going to enjoy that even with matches that are balanced at a lobby level. The overall quality of matches would be absolutely woeful. The +/- 2 Tier level certainly has its place.

There is no amount of match making smarts that could sort out unleashing two ends of the playerbase upon each other in a "one bowl" scenario. It would be a train wreck and lead to player exodus. I'd go so far as to say something like that would actually kill the game off or at least nuke enough of the remaining population that it would never recover

[Sawk]

Well it would be nice, if they had done the second part of post PSR RESET, like making KILLS and ASSIST ECT, to account for more toward PSR, maybe some LIGHT MECH love ECT ECT.
BUT sadly it is what it is, i can tell you playing a SOLO pilot, its hard wall to bust thru tier 2, so get a team, and learn all 4 weights, light to assault.
SAWK PS GOOD LUCK

[Brauer]

Sawk, on 05 February 2022 - 05:14 PM, said:

Well it would be nice, if they had done the second part of post PSR RESET, like making KILLS and ASSIST ECT, to account for more toward PSR, maybe some LIGHT MECH love ECT ECT.
BUT sadly it is what it is, i can tell you playing a SOLO pilot, its hard wall to bust thru tier 2, so get a team, and learn all 4 weights, light to assault.
SAWK PS GOOD LUCK

Light mechs already stack match score, and by extension PSR, if played well. They don't put up quite as much as the other classes, but they do receive boosts to match score that others do not.