98 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

Now this may not make sense. It may seem wrong. It might even seem like a stupid idea. It is most likely something that many will find offensive.

LRMs need to be much deadliers. They are not that effective. Many counters exist. ECM. ECM bubbles. Cover. AMS. Mechs with 4 AMS. Stealth Armor. Minimal effectiveness inside 180m. They spread damage. Solaris City. You must stare at what your aiming at. And I'm sure there are some i'm forgetting

Making them more effective might encourage bringing AMS. Moving in groups under AMS. Moving in groups inside a ECM bubble.

Now some are going to hate this. I expect the viceralness to come.

And if I were king for a day, I'd make locks on mechs jumping automatic. A nice little counter to jump sniping.

[pbiggz]

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

Now this may not make sense. It may seem wrong. It might even seem like a stupid idea. It is most likely something that many will find offensive.

LRMs need to be much deadliers. They are not that effective. Many counters exist. ECM. ECM bubbles. Cover. AMS. Mechs with 4 AMS. Stealth Armor. Minimal effectiveness inside 180m. They spread damage. Solaris City. You must stare at what your aiming at. And I'm sure there are some i'm forgetting

Making them more effective might encourage bringing AMS. Moving in groups under AMS. Moving in groups inside a ECM bubble.

Now some are going to hate this. I expect the viceralness to come.

And if I were king for a day, I'd make locks on mechs jumping automatic. A nice little counter to jump sniping.

What you're asking for would probably require a rework of how LRMs in MWO work. As it stands its very difficult to tweak their performance without either making them trivial, or making them oppressive.

[John Bronco]

LRMs are powerful against less skilled opposition and weaker against better opposition. That is an appropriate balance paradigm for a very easy to use weapon.

[Dogstar]

John Bronco, on 16 February 2022 - 10:52 PM, said:

a very easy to use weapon.

LRMs are not a 'very easy to use' weapon.

Lasers are a very easy to use weapon, LRMS require planning, positioning, and smarts to use effectively.

Stop jumping on the 'LRMs are easy' bandwagon!

[Kirito Kerenksy]

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

Many counters exist. ECM. ECM bubbles. Cover. AMS. Mechs with 4 AMS. Stealth Armor.

Counters to these exist: BAP, PPC hits and NARC disable ECM,
A lot of buildings and cover that conceals a mech (which will not be able to shoot at you because he has no LOS) can have missiles go over it if you have either a UAV or another mech that is actively targeting/TAGing your intended target.
AMS can be overwhelmed, and will eventually run out of ammo (expending more than 10 shots against every 1 missile) while LAMS will overheat a mech very quickly if you're bringing enough LRMs, which you should since LRM launchers are lighter compared to weapons that deal equal damage, and ammo is hundreds per ton.

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

Minimal effectiveness inside 180m. They spread damage. Solaris City. You must stare at what your aiming at. And I'm sure there are some i'm forgetting

You shouldn't be that close for a long range weapons system anyway, the spread is a compensation for not needing to hold your reticle on any one component, or even on the mech for more than 2 seconds (...you did put Target Decay on your mech right? right?? You know its the most important part of building an LRM boat right??)

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

You must stare at what your aiming at.

ooohh, you didn't get Target Decay on the skill tree. Sir, you need that. NEED that. It allows you to keep lock after moving your reticle off of the red box, and even lets you keep your target locked so you can continue to rain on them while they're behind cover, and yes, the missiles will go over a building 1 and a half times as tall as your target.

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

Making them more effective might encourage bringing AMS. Moving in groups under AMS. Moving in groups inside a ECM bubble.

People mostly do this already

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

And if I were king for a day, I'd make locks on mechs jumping automatic. A nice little counter to jump sniping.

People have already managed to get kills and 800 damage with LRMs using their foot to aim, I don't think being able to damage enemies without touching the mouse should be a feature in any FPS.

and yes, MWO is an FPS

[Weeny Machine]

The problem is that when you make LRMs deadlier, you will effectively kill off every other weapon system except ERLLs and Gauss because moving will be suicide - or ECM will be mandatory for everything. This would also mean that you get even more trench warfare...and I think of that we already have enough

Edited by Weeny Machine, 17 February 2022 - 02:45 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Kirito Kerenksy, on 17 February 2022 - 02:09 AM, said:

Counters to these exist: BAP, PPC hits and NARC disable ECM,
A lot of buildings and cover that conceals a mech (which will not be able to shoot at you because he has no LOS) can have missiles go over it if you have either a UAV or another mech that is actively targeting/TAGing your intended target.
AMS can be overwhelmed, and will eventually run out of ammo (expending more than 10 shots against every 1 missile) while LAMS will overheat a mech very quickly if you're bringing enough LRMs, which you should since LRM launchers are lighter compared to weapons that deal equal damage, and ammo is hundreds per ton.



You shouldn't be that close for a long range weapons system anyway, the spread is a compensation for not needing to hold your reticle on any one component, or even on the mech for more than 2 seconds (...you did put Target Decay on your mech right? right?? You know its the most important part of building an LRM boat right??)


ooohh, you didn't get Target Decay on the skill tree. Sir, you need that. NEED that. It allows you to keep lock after moving your reticle off of the red box, and even lets you keep your target locked so you can continue to rain on them while they're behind cover, and yes, the missiles will go over a building 1 and a half times as tall as your target.



People mostly do this already

People have already managed to get kills and 800 damage with LRMs using their foot to aim, I don't think being able to damage enemies without touching the mouse should be a feature in any FPS.

and yes, MWO is an FPS

its a feature in each FPS with Vehicles and Giuded Missles, Mines or placeable Automatic Turrets

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 17 February 2022 - 02:54 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 17 February 2022 - 02:53 AM, said:

its a feature in each FPS with Vehicles and Giuded Missles, Mines or placeable Automatic Turrets

Actually a good point. Please let us have SWARM missles and ARROV IV Systems then. Camping and sniping would stop really quickly mwahahaha

[Captain Caveman DE]

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 17 February 2022 - 03:29 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Think of it this way…

LBX/10 Autocannon… direct fire, 10 damage with tight spread, 11 tons plus ammo
Artemis LRM10… slower velocity than above, similar spread, requires lock, homes in on target, can fire indirect, 6 tons plus ammo

And that’s Inner Sphere. For Clan, the LRM is an even better deal, as the weights are 10 tons versus 3.5 tons. 1/3 the weight (before ammo) for the same damage that can fire indirect. The difference is made up by the factors that make LRMs harder to use.

So no, I’m happy with where they are.

[Natural Predator]

Tlords, on 16 February 2022 - 08:39 PM, said:

Now this may not make sense. It may seem wrong. It might even seem like a stupid idea. It is most likely something that many will find offensive.

LRMs need to be much deadliers. They are not that effective. Many counters exist. ECM. ECM bubbles. Cover. AMS. Mechs with 4 AMS. Stealth Armor. Minimal effectiveness inside 180m. They spread damage. Solaris City. You must stare at what your aiming at. And I'm sure there are some i'm forgetting

Making them more effective might encourage bringing AMS. Moving in groups under AMS. Moving in groups inside a ECM bubble.

Now some are going to hate this. I expect the viceralness to come.

And if I were king for a day, I'd make locks on mechs jumping automatic. A nice little counter to jump sniping.

NO

[katoult]

ScrapIron Prime, on 17 February 2022 - 04:15 AM, said:

1/3 the weight (before ammo) for the same damage that can fire indirect.

If you only get the same damage out of a LBX10 as out of a LRM10 you may want to consider a different weapon.

[John Bronco]

Dogstar, on 17 February 2022 - 12:58 AM, said:

LRMs are not a 'very easy to use' weapon.

Lasers are a very easy to use weapon, LRMS require planning, positioning, and smarts to use effectively.

Stop jumping on the 'LRMs are easy' bandwagon!

These threads always crack me up. A hearty laugh is a great way to start the day!

[LordNothing]

problem is that pugs use lerms when the people who really should be using lerms are coordinated groups.

[ScrapIron Prime]

katoult, on 17 February 2022 - 05:51 AM, said:

If you only get the same damage out of a LBX10 as out of a LRM10 you may want to consider a different weapon.

Its a simplified analysis. yes, I could factor in cooldown and other things, but then it becomes a wall of text. nobody wants a wall of text.

[RickySpanish]

Sure, make them deadlier - but ONLY when in direct line of sight with TAG bonus. Lock on will be disabled when not in LOS, no more indirect fire cheese for you. You want a better weapon? You'll have to get into a position to use it and maintain exposure. Just like everyone else.

[Kotis77]

Back when PGI handled balance LRMS and ATMS were too powerful that drive any skilled player away from the game. Now that cauldron making balance decisions they are catering skilled players and driving less skilled players away.

I dont think this game is ever gonna find good balance, which is so hard in game like this where there is so many moving pieces and playerbase is all over the place. But game like this where average age is like 40 years balance shouldnt go towards FPS shooter games if you ask me.

And for original LRM question. LRMS are too powerful as how easy they are to use. If you ask me they should get nerf, but that would drive more players away so they should just leave them as they are.

[An6ryMan69]

There's no perfect weapon system, or perfect mech. I'm sure it is designed that way on purpose, to keep people using a great variety of weapons systems, since nothing out there is really that good.

You see it all over in MWO - something potentially great, purposely hobbled.

Aspects of LRMs, like inner sphere LRMs being completely useless under 180 meters, or clan LRMs firing in streams so they are laughably easily defeated by AMS, are there purposely to reduce the effectiveness of the weapons, and for no other reason.

But if we want to speak out against LRM's being castrated we'd need to look all across the board - minimum ranges on ANY weapon, stupid heavy AC20 ammo, absurd firing system on Gauss rifles, SRM's that are brutally inaccurate, the heat management system in it's entirety, a complete lack of rear facing or side facing cameras, crap sensors, mechs with weapons systems placed so badly they MUST have been purposely placed there just to force pilots to expose themselves more than any sane person ever would. etc.

A kindergartener who was starting from scratch could design more effective giant fighting robots and weapons systems - IF effectiveness was the point, but it isn't.

So strap in to your kind of favorite war machine with the least annoying features you can find, load it with the a bunch of sort of effective weapons that you are marginally deadly with, and get out there and mix it up with everyone else!

Edited by An6ryMan69, 17 February 2022 - 08:32 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

NO

LRMs good as are they now.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I think the main problem with doing changes to LRMS is the boating potential. LRM 5s are basically worthless. You have to boat at least 20 at a time to make any difference. But there are mechs that can do LRM 80s. One way to mitigate this in a way could be to look at the dynamic models again. Used to be you had to fire large launchers in volleys if the stock loadout art didn't support that size of launcher. But now, dynamic models support most configurations as single volleys. This could be reduced strategically to prevent abuse of certain boat chassis. This applies mostly to IS since Clan launchers stream but other alterations could be made there. Then, reduce the strength of counters or increase the power of LRMS in some way.
I kinda wonder if the path to LRMs would work better, at least indirect fire at long range, as it arcs up and then down but with wide spread. So from a distance and indirectly, it's like artillery. People here probably don't like that idea though because it's passive participation.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 17 February 2022 - 09:28 AM.