63 replies to this topic

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Hi, I wanted to suggest improvements that aI think will make the game more interesting and fair:

1) Get the armor +15% Weapons pass have improved weapons making them deal substantial more damage and armor has not improved, and in general they only get +10% at best, so making it +25% would give better and compared with how much damage weapons, won't be much more of an effort to kill anyone, but would give pilots a chance to retreat and not die on the spot. Also, can we make all 'mech structures to also increase +25% total? And can we have The Structure to be 60% of the armor, instead of 50%?

2) Can we get +15 Skills? I think skill builds could give much better User Experience with a few more skills, getting the skills that I want to make my 'mech perform better in every way

I think all these will be in balance and improving the gameplay by a lot, with small changes

Edited by Ghost of Kyiv2, 26 February 2022 - 06:22 PM.

[Vxheous]

No.

1. Weapons pass was meant to bring the bad weapons on par with the good ones, now pretty much every single playstyle is viable as long as you play that style well. Increasing survival will make it so everyone and their grandmother can just close distance at will (again), and turn every match into the 200m engagement range (MPL spam fest) that existed prior to cauldron changes.

2. The skill tree is balanced to 91 points, adding another 15 pts would almost make it possible to take every single point that's useful, with no drawbacks.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Vxheous, on 26 February 2022 - 07:47 PM, said:

1. Weapons pass was meant to bring the bad weapons on par with the good ones, now pretty much every single playstyle is viable as long as you play that style well. Increasing survival will make it so everyone and their grandmother can just close distance at will (again), and turn every match into the 200m engagement range (MPL spam fest) that existed prior to cauldron changes.

I don't think so, Wep pass was to improve them, make them more practical, and way more lethal, along the 'mech movement pass, whic was really good. There was an Armor Pass but it was minimal, since there was a previous Wep Pass that was moderated, compared to the last 1, so we need to compensate a little with more armor, +15% is a modest increase and really only +15% time shooting a 'mech, if you engage a 'mech in a 1 vs 1, same class, close tonage situation, and kill it in 10s, you only need to shoot for +1.5s, which is really nothing really. What you describe I have never found in game, MPL are rare, always; at least in Quick Play, which is what I play 100% of the time.

Vxheous said:

2. The skill tree is balanced to 91 points, adding another 15 pts would almost make it possible to take every single point that's useful, with no drawbacks.

So what? that's precisely the point, have 'mechs use more skill points and distribute them better, still will be some drawbacks; personally I'll want more cooling and range, most points will be there, and maybe exchange some of those for other skills as different Classes have different requirements. So this is not a massive improvement, just something that will make my game better, hence by extension better for everyone else, compensating even more for the +15% Armor, and having more resources to make the battles even more strategic and interesting.

My conclusion: I only see win-win situation for gameplay and UX

Edited by Ghost of Kyiv2, 26 February 2022 - 08:57 PM.

[Vxheous]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 26 February 2022 - 08:54 PM, said:

I don't think so, Wep pass was to improve them, make them more practical, and way more lethal, along the 'mech movement pass, whic was really good. There was an Armor Pass but it was minimal, since there was a previous Wep Pass that was moderated, compared to the last 1, so we need to compensate a little with more armor, +15% is a modest increase and really only +15% time shooting a 'mech, if you engage a 'mech in a 1 vs 1, same class, close tonage situation, and kill it in 10s, you only need to shoot for +1.5s, which is really nothing really. What you describe I have never found in game, MPL are rare, always; at least in Quick Play, which is what I play 100% of the time.



So what? that's precisely the point, have 'mechs use more skill points and distribute them better, still will be some drawbacks; personally I'll want more cooling and range, most points will be there, and maybe exchange some of those for other skills as different Classes have different requirements. So this is not a massive improvement, just something that will make my game better, hence by extension better for everyone else, compensating even more for the +15% Armor, and having more resources to make the battles even more strategic and interesting.

My conclusion: I only see win-win situation for gameplay and UX

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Meep Meep]

I think the skill tree could use a few more points overall. I always seem to be 2 to 5 short of a reasonable build that provides the basics without maxing anything out. An additional 15 would be way too many.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Vxheous, on 26 February 2022 - 10:17 PM, said:

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Ditto

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Meep Meep, on 26 February 2022 - 10:50 PM, said:

I think the skill tree could use a few more points overall. I always seem to be 2 to 5 short of a reasonable build that provides the basics without maxing anything out. An additional 15 would be way too many.

I say at least +11, I need all those for max cooling, and it's really not that much extra cooling, I'd have 2 coolshoots and few extra cooldowns and ranges, nothing dramatic but desirable: 2-5% more, so considering everyone else will have the same, I don't see a problem

[Vxheous]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 26 February 2022 - 11:48 PM, said:

Ditto

Nah, because I actually understand the balance of this game, and have played through literally every single meta that has existed since the game was in closed beta. Armour values have been changed, heat values have been changed, mobility values have been changed, list goes on. We've seen what these changes have done to the meta, and what you're suggesting will take us back to 2019 type play, which was extremely stale.

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 26 February 2022 - 11:52 PM, said:

I say at least +11, I need all those for max cooling, and it's really not that much extra cooling, I'd have 2 coolshoots and few extra cooldowns and ranges, nothing dramatic but desirable: 2-5% more, so considering everyone else will have the same, I don't see a problem

You're literally asking for something that would contradict what you want in #1 of your original post. Adding more points gives you more cooling, which means......that you get to shoot more often, thus further reducing TTK. Meanwhile, you're also asking for an increase to Armor so you can increase TTK. Unfortunately, you're simply asking for something because in your mind it would be cool, without actually understanding how these changes would actually impact the game.

Edited by Vxheous, 27 February 2022 - 01:53 AM.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Vxheous, on 27 February 2022 - 01:46 AM, said:

Nah, because I actually understand the balance of this game, and have played through literally every single meta that has existed since the game was in closed beta. Armour values have been changed, heat values have been changed, mobility values have been changed, list goes on. We've seen what these changes have done to the meta, and what you're suggesting will take us back to 2019 type play, which was extremely stale.



You're literally asking for something that would contradict what you want in #1 of your original post. Adding more points gives you more cooling, which means......that you get to shoot more often, thus further reducing TTK. Meanwhile, you're also asking for an increase to Armor so you can increase TTK. Unfortunately, you're simply asking for something because in your mind it would be cool, without actually understanding how these changes would actually impact the game.

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[caravann]

Skillpoints being changed do not change the meta once it has settled. The community is sensitive to changes.

Will I Quit MWO Because of the Skill Tree System? - YouTube

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

caravann, on 27 February 2022 - 06:05 AM, said:

Skillpoints being changed do not change the meta once it has settled. The community is sensitive to changes.

Will I Quit MWO Because of the Skill Tree System? - YouTube

Exactly, what's important is to discuss it reasonably, exept with the ones that just repeat like a broken record why everything is perfect and should never change, and realize that the skill tree is just a little difference, and even less, when I only ask for a few more skills, to have the skill tree that I dream of having; I'd last from fractions of a second to a couple of seconds more, shoot a bit more and that would be OK with me

Edited by Ghost of Kyiv2, 27 February 2022 - 07:18 AM.

[Vxheous]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 27 February 2022 - 07:00 AM, said:

Exactly, what's important is to discuss it reasonably, exept with the ones that just repeat like a broken record why everything is perfect and should never change, and realize that the skill tree is just s little difference, and even more when I only ask for a few more skills, to have the skill tree that I dream of having; I'd last from fractions of a second to a couple of seconds more, and that would be OK with me, that's what I want

Except you've shown you don't understand what you're asking for. Do I wish that I can fill out the firepower tree and the survival tree, and the operations tree, and the sensors tree and and aux tree? Sure, except that would be absolutely broken. 91 points as it stands makes you make sacrifices somewhere, what you're asking for would literally create a cookie cutter min/max tree that you could throw on 99% of all mechs.

Edited by Vxheous, 27 February 2022 - 07:18 AM.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Vxheous, on 27 February 2022 - 07:10 AM, said:

Except you've shown you don't understand what you're asking for. Do I wish that I can fill out the firepower tree and the survival tree, and the operations tree, and the sensors tree and and aux tree? Sure, except that would be absolutely broken. 91 points as it stands makes you make sacrifices somewhere, what you're asking for would literally create a cookie cutter min/max tree that you could throw on 99% of all mechs.

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Vxheous]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 27 February 2022 - 07:19 AM, said:

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Good try, but my success in this game says otherwise, unlike yourself.

[Hobbles v]

More nodes is not a good idea. It is very easy to max range and cooling already. Usually this still leaves enough points to do a deep committment in one other tree. Or a moderate dip into 2. This choice is good. You arent supposed to be able to get everything.

More nodes will not make you last longer in combat Ghost. Everyone else will gain more offense in line with your extra survival nodes.

An even committment between firepower, survival, mobility, ops and sensors would give you 18 points in each tree with one spare point for the extra consumable. With the exception of firepower 18 points will get you most of the real benefits of each tree. 11 More points would be silly as a mech would litterally be able to get almost every good node.

With no variety or choice to speak of in skills taken a ton of builds that can skip certain trees to maximize others areas will fall to the wayside as they wont gain as much from the skilltree as other mechs. And a ton of top tier mechs will emerge as even more top tier as they have use for all trees.

Example: My dual heavy gauss cyclops. Has zero use for heat gen nodes, jumpjet tree and the operations tree in general. So it has a ton of points that I can commit to extra survival/sensors/mobility.

Stack it up against Dakka Blood asp with ECM and minimal jump jets. The Blood asp is already likely the superior mech, and with even more skill points that gap will increase, since almost every skill node is useful to that mechs loadout.

[caravann]

Clan and inner sphere share the same skill tree.

The weapon list on a clan mech is the intro of starwars.

[Curccu]

caravann, on 27 February 2022 - 08:11 AM, said:

Clan and inner sphere share the same skill tree.

But not all values are same for IS and Clan or even different weight classes.

[John Bronco]

I don't know what game you've been playing but every patch for the last 6 months has been adding a lot of armor to a lot of mechs.

If you are dying too fast you've committed a grave positioning mistake.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Hobbles v, on 27 February 2022 - 07:58 AM, said:

More nodes is not a good idea. It is very easy to max range and cooling already. Usually this still leaves enough points to do a deep committment in one other tree. Or a moderate dip into 2. This choice is good. You arent supposed to be able to get everything. More nodes will not make you last longer in combat Ghost. Everyone else will gain more offense in line with your extra survival nodes. An even committment between firepower, survival, mobility, ops and sensors would give you 18 points in each tree with one spare point for the extra consumable. With the exception of firepower 18 points will get you most of the real benefits of each tree. 11 More points would be silly as a mech would litterally be able to get almost every good node. With no variety or choice to speak of in skills taken a ton of builds that can skip certain trees to maximize others areas will fall to the wayside as they wont gain as much from the skilltree as other mechs. And a ton of top tier mechs will emerge as even more top tier as they have use for all trees. Example: My dual heavy gauss cyclops. Has zero use for heat gen nodes, jumpjet tree and the operations tree in general. So it has a ton of points that I can commit to extra survival/sensors/mobility. Stack it up against Dakka Blood asp with ECM and minimal jump jets. The Blood asp is already likely the superior mech, and with even more skill points that gap will increase, since almost every skill node is useful to that mechs loadout.

What you describe I have never found, this account is new, but I had 1 before that had pretty much every Class and Chassis and I had most of my Skill Points on Firepower, Survival and Operations; 18 on them would be way too low, for my game style, and the other groups I never use really, but yeah some consumables and sensor are desirable, that doesn't overpower anything, just more aware gameplay, more interesting, than just going shooting stuff. I have played a Trial Blood, Is not different than a Kodiak or Atlas, depends on heat management and weapon loadout balance really more than the skills; like I wrote before, skills have no really big value, just small improvements, that this game could use, as denying those skill points cripple great gameplay possibilities that simply not there but could with +15 SPs making this game more versatile and complete for everyone's enjoyment.

Or if you can't add more then the removal of some useless SPs, like Quick Ignitiion. Or change the way the Skill Tree works, picking without restriction the Skill we want and Settling The Nomber of them at 101 SPs.

Better game and UX means more players, more returning players, more popular of a game. I have played this game for many years and this is something I found every single time I analyze this game gameplay; it's just not complete enough, too restricted, not enough versatile and limits the possibilities a lot, making it boring, and people just getting tired of it in their quit posts; that now are forbidden in the Forums for that reason.

Conclusion: This Skill Pass, is an easy fix for the devs, unless PGI has no plans to make substantial changes on the game; this game needs a boost and this is something that I think has great potential yet is easy to implement and have immediate great benefits

John Bronco, on 27 February 2022 - 12:24 PM, said:

I don't know what game you've been playing but every patch for the last 6 months has been adding a lot of armor to a lot of mechs. If you are dying too fast you've committed a grave positioning mistake.

I think +15% Armor more wouldn't hurt, and would balance more and better firepower from my Skill Pass suggestion; win-win

Edited by Ghost of Kyiv2, 27 February 2022 - 02:18 PM.

[YueFei]

John Bronco, on 27 February 2022 - 12:24 PM, said:

I don't know what game you've been playing but every patch for the last 6 months has been adding a lot of armor to a lot of mechs.

If you are dying too fast you've committed a grave positioning mistake.

I touched on this a bit in another thread, but I think what might be happening is people having very different experiences depending on what chassis they're in. Assuming that they're arguing in good faith, this colors their perceptions and creates a disconnect between what they're experiencing and what the good players (or players that are at least "in-the-know") are experiencing.

I generally enjoy brawling as a playstyle over any other, and find that it's quite viable. I've often argued against people who said brawling is dead, and I've been among those who say brawling is effective. But I'm generally driving mechs that are suited for this, like Shadowhawks, Wolverines, Centurions. This month I dusted off my long-forgotten Hunchback-4SP (1st mech I ever played). Holy crap is it a chore trying to get anything done in the HBK-4SP. Despite that it has, on-paper, very very generous armor and structure quirks, this thing is much more fragile in practice. The lack of shield arms makes all the difference. Even though it has a total of an extra 26 hitpoints in each shoulder, compare that with the total shield arm health on a Centurion of 88 hitpoints.

In practical terms, this means that if you can effectively utilize the shield arm on a Centurion, that's an extra 88 hitpoints (and that's before the skill tree). You can tank a couple salvos as you close in.

Compare that with the Hunchback-4SP. It has a terrible profile for blocking shots with the arms. The weapon mounting locations require a lot of exposure, both profile-wise and in terms of duration of exposure. Take a couple hits on the way in and a shoulder is already ripped open, and if you're unlucky one of the ASRM6s has been crit out already.

By the time you've lost those 88 hitpoints in a Centurion's left arm (possibly more, if you took points in Survival Tree), the Hunchback has already lost those 52 extra hitpoints in both shoulders and an extra 36 points on top of that, meaning a shoulder is about to be opened up.

So now put yourself in the shoes of a casual player who just picks his mech based on the fact that he thinks they look cool. He doesn't read the patch notes. He tries to brawl in a mech that looks like that's what it is supposed to be doing, and you can imagine the kind of frustration he is having at getting smacked down left and right. You can imagine how this can lead to people having very different experiences and end up "talking past" each other.

Now like I said in the other thread, the Cauldron is trying to make every mech viable, so this problem will slowly go away, but it's still very much a work in progress.