43 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

It works both ways.

No, it wouldn't.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

It still takes 3 slots to equip because it's 3 machineguns.

It would actually take number of machine guns +1 crit slots and number of machine guns x machine gun weight + 0.5t of weight.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

It would make no difference to the mechs who can already boat them.

Actually both the additional crit slots as well as the 0.5 of weight would seriously impact all those (light) mechs you originally listed. Those already need ammo and rate of fire quirks to even work decently. What would happen if they'd lose an additional 0.5 to 1t in weapon tonnage. To get an answer just look at the FLE-19 and the MLX-G and ask yourself how well they'd do if they actually lose 1t of either their energy weaponry or 1ton of their mg ammo.

=> Lights with low ballistic slot counts would not really benefit and those with an already larger count would be stupid to waste the tonnage for arrays that directly cut into their already limited ammo counts.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

It would change nothing.

It would actually change a lot ... just not on the (light) mechs that already have high counts of ballistic slots and certainly not on those mechs you originally listed as your main benefactors. However, it would massively change ...

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

Take the Thunderbolt 5sp with the 2 random ballistic hardpoints on the left arm.

... things for larger mechs and get "insane" on some heavies and assaults

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

What would only be 2 machineguns has now become 6. But in return you now took up 6 slots not including ammo.

It would take 8 slots but the actual question is: Does that Thunderbolt really need a machine gun inflation?

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 20 March 2022 - 01:53 PM.

[FupDup]

Making MG Arrays allow multiple MGs in one hardpoint would probably cause a lot of unintended consequences.

Variants with few ballistic hardpoints could very quickly approach or surpass Piranha-level MG boating without Piranha drawbacks. Certain variants that currently have high ballistic HP counts as a selling point, like the Arrow, would lose a lot of that identity when the other BJ's could now carry 8 MGs via the use of one quadruple MG array per arm (of course the Arrow could use arrays too to easily mount the equivalent of 16 MGs via 2x quad arrays per arm).

The existing hardcap of 16 weapons wouldn't be able to apply here since the arrays would count as one weapon, which could get pretty crazy on certain mechs (like the 24-MG Annihilator mentioned earlier).

I could only see MG arrays maybe working if they were not 1:1 as powerful as individual MGs. So for example an array of 2 MGs might only be 1.7x as strong as a standalone MG, or whatever value would be balanced. The ratio would get worse as the arrays get bigger, so a quad array might only be equal to like 3 individual MGs in DPS. This would preserve the benefit of having a high base quantity of ballistic hardpoints.

But even then I still think it's more trouble than it's worth. There are so many other weapons that should have higher priority because they fill entirely new niches.

[Mahpsy]

Der Geisterbaer, on 20 March 2022 - 01:38 PM, said:

No, it wouldn't.



It would actually take number of machine guns +1 crit slots and 0.5t of weight.



Actually both the additional crit slots as well as the 0.5 of weight would seriously impact all those (light) mechs you originally listed. Those already need ammo and rate of fire quirks to even work decently. What would happen if they'd lose an additional 0.5 to 1t in weapon tonnage. To get an answer just look at the FLE-19 and the MLX-G and ask yourself how well they'd do if they actually lose 1t of either their energy weaponry or 1ton of their mg ammo.

=> Lights with low ballistic slot counts would not really benefit and those with an already larger count would be stupid to waste the tonnage for arrays that directly cut into their already limited ammo counts.



It would actually change a lot ... just not on the (light) mechs that already have high counts of ballistic slots and certainly not on those mechs you originally listed as your main benefactors. However, it would massively change ...



... things for larger mechs and get "insane" on some heavies and assaults



It would take 8 slots but the actual question is: Does that Thunderbolt really need a machine gun inflation?

When it comes to those mechs you listed it's up to the user. Not everyone plays to play the best meta build. This is why people deliberately stay in T4 and T5. It's up to the user to find what's fun for them. More energy? More ballistics? Experimentation isn't bad for the game in this context.

When it comes to the ammo quirks I've been advocating it for ALL lights and even some medium mechs. If a mech can only use specific weapon systems that it cant even run efficiently or well at all most players, you guessed it, wont be played at all. Like the LCT-3S(yes i know it's not a ballistic mech just making a point about ammo efficiency.)

When you say they can be insane on heavy's and assaults. Think about it. How often do you see assaults now a days get within 120m unless they are making a push around a corner. If you're dumb enough to fall to a machine gun assault then you deserve to die when you had ampule opportunities to run(assuming UAV is up).

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 20 March 2022 - 01:49 PM, said:

Making MG Arrays allow multiple MGs in one hardpoint would probably cause a lot of unintended consequences.

Variants with few ballistic hardpoints could very quickly approach or surpass Piranha-level MG boating without Piranha drawbacks. Certain variants that currently have high ballistic HP counts as a selling point, like the Arrow, would lose a lot of that identity when the other BJ's could now carry 8 MGs via the use of one quadruple MG array per arm (of course the Arrow could use arrays too to easily mount the equivalent of 16 MGs via 2x quad arrays per arm).

The existing hardcap of 16 weapons wouldn't be able to apply here since the arrays would count as one weapon, which could get pretty crazy on certain mechs (like the 24-MG Annihilator mentioned earlier).

I could only see MG arrays maybe working if they were not 1:1 as powerful as individual MGs. So for example an array of 2 MGs might only be 1.7x as strong as a standalone MG, or whatever value would be balanced. The ratio would get worse as the arrays get bigger, so a quad array might only be equal to like 3 individual MGs in DPS. This would preserve the benefit of having a high base quantity of ballistic hardpoints.

But even then I still think it's more trouble than it's worth. There are so many other weapons that should have higher priority because they fill entirely new niches.

And for the most part I would agree especially when other weapons have priority on larger mechs. But they would fulfill a similar roll to rocket launchers. Extra tonnage? Have the hard point or 2 just open with no synergy? Slap on a array for the little extra.

[Mahpsy]

Now this screen shot is from Battletech Roguetech mod But this is what an arctic Cheetah could look like with arrays.

https://imgur.com/a/c1MwV81

[LordNothing]

Der Geisterbaer, on 20 March 2022 - 01:29 PM, said:

Well, that's obviously a very different goal than Mahpsy had in mind. You're now directly advocating for machine gun inflation on the "big boys" .. as if they truly needed that. An ANH-2A with the equivalent of 24 light (or how about heavy) machine guns would certainly "spice up" things there, wouldn't it?

well if it dies to vomit on its way to shoot you, then its not a very effective build now is it?

i think id also advocate for lac/pac, because its effectively the same problem in reverse. few lights can mount viable autocannon options, especially on the is side. you need something to make them less viable on heavy boaty mechs, but that is just a matter of balance.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 March 2022 - 02:41 PM.

[caravann]

Executioner already do the pepper box, same for Nova.

Array digs the hole bigger by adding machineguns who have no heat limit.

I'd see a change on chain shot to make all heat calculated for all guns before making the shot.

There's only use for missiles and sometimes ballistics. Lasers? waste your time ruin you dps.

Array would work for lasers because it creates heat and pulses of lasers becomes a pulse laser.

Mines would be a new thing. drop them on the ground but be aware that any step on them explode the mines. They're able to be visual with thermal.

Napalm missile launchers, they're intercepted by ams.and gives a chance for autocannon to jam when overheating.

UAV- AMS turret , In a tactical position and last for a minute.

traditional mech weapons, the bolt spike. close range conventional melee spike gun.
It spikes the armor but deals no damage to structure. instead rocket launchers are used to destroy the structure.

spydrone, drops a beagle turret on the ground who act as a spy. can be mounted on remote locations, last until destroyed.

one hit shields , a.k.a ERA first hit in the battle deals no damage.
.

[Alex Morgaine]

caravann, on 20 March 2022 - 11:59 AM, said:

The game has piranha , which shouldn't be in the game.

Since there are no boundaries, I want nukes on urbies, Heavy aerospace fighters shooting down the enemy team dropship before it land and helldiving dropships crushing mechs on the ground (sumire) and orbital laser cannon killing everything in its path. It rounds up with small arms like the core destroyer of planets. Then we go to big guns. The moon cruncher, drags the whole moon on the planet. The planet slingshot, shoots away a planet like a bullet and hits another planet. The supernova merging two stars into another causing an explosion killing all lives in the solar system. The Titan class, mech with size of a small planet. Spacespears, spaceships who are launched away by the Titan and causes a lighting strike that split the planet like an apple. The xena chakram.

was thinking lol until xena chakram. i want a mech scale chakram.

[Mahpsy]

caravann, on 20 March 2022 - 03:20 PM, said:

Executioner already do the pepper box, same for Nova.

Array digs the hole bigger by adding machineguns who have no heat limit.

I'd see a change on chain shot to make all heat calculated for all guns before making the shot.

There's only use for missiles and sometimes ballistics. Lasers? waste your time ruin you dps.

Array would work for lasers because it creates heat and pulses of lasers becomes a pulse laser.

Mines would be a new thing. drop them on the ground but be aware that any step on them explode the mines. They're able to be visual with thermal.

Napalm missile launchers, they're intercepted by ams.and gives a chance for autocannon to jam when overheating.

UAV- AMS turret , In a tactical position and last for a minute.

traditional mech weapons, the bolt spike. close range conventional melee spike gun.
It spikes the armor but deals no damage to structure. instead rocket launchers are used to destroy the structure.

spydrone, drops a beagle turret on the ground who act as a spy. can be mounted on remote locations, last until destroyed.

one hit shields , a.k.a ERA first hit in the battle deals no damage.
.

Mines and mortars are what I really want right now. Mines that get launched like missiles to a set arc like a grenade launcher(no minimum range) that are hard to see(but still possible if you pay attention) that can be destroyed with PPC's in an area like in Roguetech.

And Mortars that do aoe ground damage w/ bonus damage to direct hits to be able to flush out those pesky Gauss ERLL ECM snipers that will not move an inch with their butt against a wall with 1 or 0 back armor.

Now I know a bunch of the top tier players will smack down this mortar weapon, but there has to be something better than being forced to run into a death alpha and losing half of your mech on the way at 900M.

[FupDup]

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 03:42 PM, said:

Now I know a bunch of the top tier players will smack down this mortar weapon...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If Mech Mortars worked like MW4's Long Tom, they'd be the highest skill weapon in the game by a mile and thus very unlikely for people to paint as a "noob weapon." No one ever called the MW4 Long Tom a noob weapon.

[Mahpsy]

FupDup, on 20 March 2022 - 04:09 PM, said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If Mech Mortars worked like MW4's Long Tom, they'd be the highest skill weapon in the game by a mile and thus very unlikely for people to paint as a "noob weapon." No one ever called the MW4 Long Tom a noob weapon.

I say they wouldn't like it because almost every one I know of prefers to sit and snipe and if anything messes with the play style of gauss, ERLL, and any other sort of long range sniping build they just go "No, my play style is threatened by lights too much as it is.". I'm paraphrasing but you get what I mean.

[LordNothing]

i think the vgl would also be good. vgls would be ballistic, mortars missile, and the only real difference would be the range with the vgl being short and the mortar being midrange. they would both be dumbfire arcing aoe weapons. would be awesome if it supported indirect fire, for that you would need a hud readout for the impact range, which you would need to match up with the target range. and it could be simpler, like turn the crosshair blue when the target is inside the predicted aoe. or you could go nuts and do like the longtom reticle from mwll. that was pretty nifty. of course someone would need to have it locked. "hold locks i got mortars!"

Edited by LordNothing, 20 March 2022 - 04:43 PM.

[Mahpsy]

LordNothing, on 20 March 2022 - 04:31 PM, said:

i think the vgl would also be good. vgls would be ballistic, mortars missile, and the only real difference would be the range with the vgl being short and the mortar being midrange. they would both be dumbfire arcing aoe weapons. would be awesome if it supported indirect fire, for that you would need a hud readout for the impact range, which you would need to match up with the target range. and it could be simpler, like turn the crosshair blue when the target is inside the predicted aoe. or you could go nuts and do like the longtom reticle from mwll. that was pretty nifty. of course someone would need to have it locked. "hold locks i got mortars!"

Well in roguetech there is normal mortars, then there are guided ones. If we ever get ammo swaps the guided will need a lock on.

[Novakaine]

[MrTBSC]

i don´t realy get what the point about machinegunarrays is ..

just give mechs the ability to carry singular machineguns, it has been that way in MW3, it is that way in MWO and 5 and it works well enough

MW4 some dudes decided to implement MG arrays through a mod and take singular machine guns out and it was just bad for lights considering they had no noteworthy hardpoints for those arrays..
well medium and small weapons were horribly ballanced in MW 4 anyway so .. eh .. whatever

Edited by MrTBSC, 21 March 2022 - 02:23 AM.

[Mahpsy]

MrTBSC, on 21 March 2022 - 02:21 AM, said:

i don´t realy get what the point about machinegunarrays is ..

just give mechs the ability to carry singular machineguns, it has been that way in MW3, it is that way in MWO and 5 and it works well enough

MW4 some dudes decided to implement MG arrays through a mod and take singular machine guns out and it was just bad for lights considering they had no noteworthy hardpoints for those arrays..
well medium and small weapons were horribly ballanced in MW 4 anyway so .. eh .. whatever

Well if the thing is in mechwarrior 4 everyone more or less agreed that everything was busted. But then again when Mechwarrior 4 came out I was 8 and still on dial-up soooo.

[Curccu]

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:22 PM, said:

It works both ways. It still takes 3 slots to equip because it's 3 machineguns. It would make no difference to the mechs who can already boat them. It would change nothing(Edit: very little). Take the Thunderbolt 5sp with the 2 random ballistic hardpoints on the left arm. What would only be 2 machineguns has now become 6. But in return you now took up 6 slots not including ammo.

Yeah but how broken would some stuff be stuffed full of HMG like all the empty slots minus some 5 tons of ammo to rip something to total smithereens in literally few seconds, something that has armor unlike piranha that could face tank that incoming damage eez for short period.


edit: something like this Anni Yeah not sure if it could really take all those weapons but in concept...).

Edited by Curccu, 21 March 2022 - 09:21 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

When it comes to those mechs you listed it's up to the user.

No, your original stated intent was to "help" those mechs you listed ... which supposedly were lights with lower ballistic slot counts than the more extreme examples of PIR-1, FLE-19, ACH-E and MLX-G with 8 to 12 ballistic slots that most of the time can only reasonably well be used as machine gun slots.
But other lights you mentioned most of the time wouldn't actually benefit that much from such arrays. Instead you'd get to see PIR-1 level (and above) machine gun loadouts on heavier mediums, heavies and assaults (anything that has at least 3 ballistic slots) along with what the PIR-1 doesn't have:

a ) greater quantities of armor that actually allows the mech in question to face time others
b ) "side weaponry" that is way more dangerous than those three heavy-smalls that the PIR-1 commonly has next to those machine guns.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not everyone plays to play the best meta build.

And now you're entering strawman territory. This wasn't about "meta builds" or ...

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is why people deliberately stay in T4 and T5.

... (supposedly) deliberately tanking one's personal rating to stay in lower tiers. This was about your idea not actually benefitting those mechs that you orinigally mentioned as the intended targets for the benefits of your suggestion and from there it became about the actual ramifications for "the meta" if PGI truly decided to allow machine gun inflation via machine gun arrays in the manner that you proposed.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

It's up to the user to find what's fun for them.

Considering the whining from certain people about the alleged OP-ness of the heat-less 12 dps that a PIR-1 can deliver how do you expect people to feel about heavies and assaults exceeding PIR-1 machine gun numbers along with way more armor and better additional weaponry?

Side note: It's kind of ironic that Nomad Tech just gave you a like on your comment there ...

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

More energy? More ballistics? Experimentation isn't bad for the game in this context.

Since nobody said that experimentation was bad: Yet another strawman.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

When it comes to the ammo quirks I've been advocating it for ALL lights and even some medium mechs. If a mech can only use specific weapon systems that it cant even run efficiently or well at all most players, you guessed it, wont be played at all. Like the LCT-3S(yes i know it's not a ballistic mech just making a point about ammo efficiency.)

You'll have to decide here. Are you trying to talk "efficiency" or "fun". Just some sentences prior you tried to tell me that it wasn't about efficency / meta.

But for the sake of the argument let's instead of the LCT-3S take a look at this loadout for a LCT-1V.

That one already has ammo and RoF quirks. Giving machine gun arrays to this mech would require down-grading the light PPC to a medium laser along with single heat sinks instead of double ones ... that would indeed allow using 4 crit slot machine guns array with 3 machine guns in either arm but the available ammo would still be only 1.5 tons ...

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

When you say they can be insane on heavy's and assaults. Think about it.

I'd strongly suggest that you do the thinking there instead of me.

One key argument about the PIR-1's ability to boat 12 machine guns (of either size, although a 12 hmg PIR-1 tends to be "ineffective") is it's lack of larger amounts of armor and its relatively weak secondary weaponry (upon which it actually depends to breach remaining armor in targeted zones). Now think about the prospect of any larger mech that has a minimum of 3 ballistic hardpoints in a minimum of 2 different zones and recognize that now any of those mechs has PIR-1 level of machine gun access with usually way stronger "secondary" weaponry and way more armor.

Mahpsy, on 20 March 2022 - 01:55 PM, said:

How often do you see assaults now a days get within 120m unless they are making a push around a corner.

I guess your imagination didn't quite get behind what I was trying to tell you when mentioning the ANH-2A. For reference take a look at this custom build 24 LMG Array Anni
Note that

• the CASE was used to simulate the crit slots taken by actual machine gun arrays in accordance to "Lore"
  
• the "missing" 3 tons of tonnage are the canon weight of 6 machine gun arrays outside the guns mounted on these arrays.
  
• the TAC comp is there just for the fun of increasing the crit rates for those light machine guns.

This mech wouldn't have to get within 120m to start its armor shredding carnage. Also try to understand that this 24 machine gun ANH-2A wasn't mentioned with the intent of delivering the "be all end all" of dangers but merely an obvious entry point to where things certainly would get out of hand very fast: So far I only made examples where I referenced one of the slowest IS assault mechs that happens to have 6 ballistic slots ... now try to think about Clan mechs and omnis



********************************************************

LordNothing, on 20 March 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

well if it dies to vomit on its way to shoot you, then its not a very effective build now is it?

You're creating a false dilemma

LordNothing, on 20 March 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

i think id also advocate for lac/pac,

While I agree that LACs / PACs would indeed be a good addition when trying to (also) expand the weapon portfolio of Light mechs I strongly disagree that ...

LordNothing, on 20 March 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

because its effectively the same problem in reverse. few lights can mount viable autocannon options, especially on the is side.

... this situation is "the same problem in reverse". The inclusion of machine gun arrays in the manner that you are advocating for is a direct inflation of existing ballistic hard points that mainly benefit heavier mechs (that can afford both the crit slots and the weight) while doing little to nothing for the smaller ones that aren't already "machine gun boats". And the weight discrepancy between IS machine guns and Clan machine guns would only be further emphasized.

LACs and PACs on the other hand would cause zero hard point inflation and wouldn't directly favour particular weight classes either.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 21 March 2022 - 11:36 AM.

[LordNothing]

im not against people running what is effectively this build. this was a great mech for solaris, but not so good in qp given how easy king crabs fall apart when being shot at from more than one angle. this thing gives up 10 tons and 10 slots for those six hmgs and their ammo, plus some extra slots if you want to case that ammo. if you were going to use 3x arrays you would need 11 tons and 12 slots for the same loadout. you will probibly want to use a pair of 4x arrays, that will cost you 13 tons and 14 slots with the same ammo. if you downgrade the mrms and remove endo or go standard engine and downgrade that you might be able to get 4. much of this build's charm is the other weapons, to approach using your hot weapons and then switching to hmgs when you get into brawling range, by which time you are hot and have an enemy with open structure.

the details of implementation matter. mgas can have 2-4 guns. if clan balance is an issue, you can give the clans 3x arrays and the is 4x. clans can always source more hardpoints on their omnimechs. a dire bringing the equivalent of 32 machine guns into battle would be absurd, and likely not able to survive engagements > 200m. it would chew everything it touched to pieces and squirrels especially would not want to mess with it. but getting that whale into a position where it can hurt the enemy would be a challenge. for balance sake limiting it to only 2 piranhas of firepower might be prudent. spheroid mechs tend to have not very well distributed ballistic points. a lot of them just seem to have a cluster in one component. an annihilator or night star would give you 6 4x arrays for the equivalent of 3 fleas.

2 piranhas or 3 fleas, whatever metric you chose, seems harsh. however machine guns force multiply with speed, as you generally use them to hunt mechs with open components with their high crit potential, mobility matters there. on a fatmech you dont have the mobility to hunt or the crit potential of multiple guns (mgas would only have the crit potential of a single mg of the same type, reguardless of size). it just becomes a range dps weapon. im not even sure mgas would be a good fit for my hmg crab, as the crit is part of its charm or that it would work out on any maximum machine gun build. a troll build at best.

[Mahpsy]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 March 2022 - 11:31 AM, said:

No, your original stated intent was to "help" those mechs you listed ... which supposedly were lights with lower ballistic slot counts than the more extreme examples of PIR-1, FLE-19, ACH-E and MLX-G with 8 to 12 ballistic slots that most of the time can only reasonably well be used as machine gun slots.
But other lights you mentioned most of the time wouldn't actually benefit that much from such arrays. Instead you'd get to see PIR-1 level (and above) machine gun loadouts on heavier mediums, heavies and assaults (anything that has at least 3 ballistic slots) along with what the PIR-1 doesn't have:

a ) greater quantities of armor that actually allows the mech in question to face time others
b ) "side weaponry" that is way more dangerous than those three heavy-smalls that the PIR-1 commonly has next to those machine guns.



And now you're entering strawman territory. This wasn't about "meta builds" or ...



... (supposedly) deliberately tanking one's personal rating to stay in lower tiers. This was about your idea not actually benefitting those mechs that you orinigally mentioned as the intended targets for the benefits of your suggestion and from there it became about the actual ramifications for "the meta" if PGI truly decided to allow machine gun inflation via machine gun arrays in the manner that you proposed.



Considering the whining from certain people about the alleged OP-ness of the heat-less 12 dps that a PIR-1 can deliver how do you expect people to feel about heavies and assaults exceeding PIR-1 machine gun numbers along with way more armor and better additional weaponry?

Side note: It's kind of ironic that Nomad Tech just gave you a like on your comment there ...



Since nobody said that experimentation was bad: Yet another strawman.



You'll have to decide here. Are you trying to talk "efficiency" or "fun". Just some sentences prior you tried to tell me that it wasn't about efficency / meta.

But for the sake of the argument let's instead of the LCT-3S take a look at this loadout for a LCT-1V.

That one already has ammo and RoF quirks. Giving machine gun arrays to this mech would require down-grading the light PPC to a medium laser along with single heat sinks instead of double ones ... that would indeed allow using 4 crit slot machine guns array with 3 machine guns in either arm but the available ammo would still be only 1.5 tons ...



I'd strongly suggest that you do the thinking there instead of me.

One key argument about the PIR-1's ability to boat 12 machine guns (of either size, although a 12 hmg PIR-1 tends to be "ineffective") is it's lack of larger amounts of armor and its relatively weak secondary weaponry (upon which it actually depends to breach remaining armor in targeted zones). Now think about the prospect of any larger mech that has a minimum of 3 ballistic hardpoints in a minimum of 2 different zones and recognize that now any of those mechs has PIR-1 level of machine gun access with usually way stronger "secondary" weaponry and way more armor.



I guess your imagination didn't quite get behind what I was trying to tell you when mentioning the ANH-2A. For reference take a look at this custom build 24 LMG Array Anni
Note that

• the CASE was used to simulate the crit slots taken by actual machine gun arrays in accordance to "Lore"
  
• the "missing" 3 tons of tonnage are the canon weight of 6 machine gun arrays outside the guns mounted on these arrays.
  
• the TAC comp is there just for the fun of increasing the crit rates for those light machine guns.

This mech wouldn't have to get within 120m to start its armor shredding carnage. Also try to understand that this 24 machine gun ANH-2A wasn't mentioned with the intent of delivering the "be all end all" of dangers but merely an obvious entry point to where things certainly would get out of hand very fast: So far I only made examples where I referenced one of the slowest IS assault mechs that happens to have 6 ballistic slots ... now try to think about Clan mechs and omnis





********************************************************



You're creating a false dilemma



While I agree that LACs / PACs would indeed be a good addition when trying to (also) expand the weapon portfolio of Light mechs I strongly disagree that ...



... this situation is "the same problem in reverse". The inclusion of machine gun arrays in the manner that you are advocating for is a direct inflation of existing ballistic hard points that mainly benefit heavier mechs (that can afford both the crit slots and the weight) while doing little to nothing for the smaller ones that aren't already "machine gun boats". And the weight discrepancy between IS machine guns and Clan machine guns would only be further emphasized.

LACs and PACs on the other hand would cause zero hard point inflation and wouldn't directly favour particular weight classes either.

I came back because I forgot about this post but.. Holy wall of text batman! Are you okay? Seriously, seems to be getting a little defensive over nothing and I wasn't even trying to irritate you and your passive aggressive comments don't help advocate for your argument.

Out of everything you just said you keep going back to the Pirana and machine guns for some reason like it's the end of the world.

Show me on the mech doll where the light mech touched you

But you never seem to mention the main thing that makes the Pirana able to use the builds. Speed and size.

Side note, that ANA build you linked, I've faced it once. Killed it with my Nova prime solo at 600m trying to close in. Didn't even break through my armor. So what's the problem again?

Also yes, the game should be both fun AND balanced for meta. If the game was only people playing only played ER LL Gauss Direwolfs or some variation in between, would you really be having fun? Or is the fun only in winning? It's subjective my man. It's just something that is very hard to pull off no matter what game you're playing.

Edit: Additionally, the type of argument that your trying to put forth is the EXACT same thing people would say back in the early days when I made a post about Light mechs and ammo efficiency. Everyone said I was dumb and bad for even recommending the idea of ammo buffs to make SRM/LRM lights viable. And would you look at that, the crazy dumb person was right! It only took like 10 years...

Edited by Mahpsy, 31 March 2022 - 07:40 PM.