114 replies to this topic

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 07:13 AM, said:

You want the map that nerfs snipers. I want the map that lets them perform.
You want the map where the walls are inaccessible to all but a few light gimmick mechs. I want the map where there are lots of avenues to advance up the walls for snipers and countersnipers.

You want to never worry about being sniped. I think im not entitled to not worry about sniping.

You can keep repeating these lies as many times as you want, but it doesn't make them any less false. As I already explained, I use all playstyles, including snipe. The only thing I want is balance.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 07:25 AM, said:

You can keep repeating these lies as many times as you want, but it doesn't make them any less false. As I already explained, I use all playstyles, including snipe. The only thing I want is balance.

Right so basically no matter what I say your response is "no u".

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 07:20 AM, said:

The walls are an elevated sniper position that literally goes all the way around the entire map. So, it's not obvious, because a team can set up snipers all over the walls, and cover each side of the map. If there was only 1 wall section in 1 specific part of the map, then your point would be valid.

It's also not really isolated because they can quickly drop down from the wall if they're rushed, and rejoin their team on the low ground. So, it's nearly as sniper-friendly as a map could possibly be.

That's nice that you brawl all the time. But, I would be willing to bet that if you dropped 100 times on that map in short range, mid range, and long range builds, your average results would be much better with the long range builds.

BTW its really funny that you just demonstrated you don't understand the new HPG map.

Maybe that has something to do with why you whine so much.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 April 2022 - 07:28 AM.

[pattonesque]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 07:20 AM, said:

The walls are an elevated sniper position that literally goes all the way around the entire map. So, it's not obvious, because a team can set up snipers all over the walls, and cover each side of the map. If there was only 1 wall section in 1 specific part of the map, then your point would be valid.

It's also not really isolated because they can quickly drop down from the wall if they're rushed, and rejoin their team on the low ground. So, it's nearly as sniper-friendly as a map could possibly be.

That's nice that you brawl all the time. But, I would be willing to bet that if you dropped 100 times on that map in short range, mid range, and long range builds, your average results would be much better with the long range builds.

and there are a limited number of spots those snipers can be in for cover. If they have to reposition they're exposed for quite some time. So the place they set up will likely be the place they're staying. Compare to Emerald, where the ridges allow snipers to fire and reposition in complete safety.

Also if they're forced to drop to the low ground they're much less effective.

It's nice that you're willing to bet that. I'm just reporting my experience as a brawler on the map -- that if you don't immediately throw up your hands and fall to pieces the moment a blue laser tickles you, you can have a high degree of success.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 07:28 AM, said:

Right so basically no matter what I say your response is "no u".

I will continue to counter every single one of your arguments, using an appropriate level of detail - in proportion to the amount of detail & supporting information that you have included with your arguments.

Quote

BTW its really funny that you just demonstrated you don't understand the new HPG map.

Maybe that has something to do with why you whine so much.

Nope. Nice try though.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:26 AM, said:

I will continue to counter every single one of your arguments, using an appropriate level of detail - in proportion to the amount of detail & supporting information that you have included with your arguments.



Nope. Nice try though.

I clinically deconstructed every half argument you presented and you've replied with nothing but lying and smarm.

[Extra Guac]

pattonesque, on 01 April 2022 - 07:34 AM, said:

and there are a limited number of spots those snipers can be in for cover. If they have to reposition they're exposed for quite some time. So the place they set up will likely be the place they're staying. Compare to Emerald, where the ridges allow snipers to fire and reposition in complete safety.

Also if they're forced to drop to the low ground they're much less effective.

These points are both correct. However, if you charge a sniper in your brawler, and they drop down, then your brawler also becomes much less effective, because it's out of position. So, you haven't really gained any advantage in that scenario. And now the brawler is separated from his team. Also, I never said anything about snipers repositioning, I said a team can have more than 1 sniper, in different spots, and cover a large % of the map that way.

Quote

It's nice that you're willing to bet that. I'm just reporting my experience as a brawler on the map -- that if you don't immediately throw up your hands and fall to pieces the moment a blue laser tickles you, you can have a high degree of success.

Based on your experiences as a brawler, do you believe that the map is properly balanced? Or, is your point simply that it's possible to have success as a brawler?

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

I clinically deconstructed every half argument you presented and you've replied with nothing but lying and smarm.

You certainly did not. Accusing someone of lying, with no basis in reality, is not a convincing argument. You haven't really said anything about the map at all, or deconstructed anything.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:34 AM, said:

You certainly did not. Accusing someone of lying, with no basis in reality, is not a convincing argument. You haven't really said anything about the map at all, or deconstructed anything.

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that new HPG is heavily tilted in favour of snipers. This is false. The perches can be pushed easily and the cover snipers have on the perches is limited and isolated. The center has a great deal of cover and can be easily brawled in, even with a large number of snipers on the perches.

You continue to argue as though this isn't true. You are repeating it, with knowledge that its not true. Therefore, you are lying.

Either you don't know what you're talking about, in which case it is your argument, not mine, that is not based in reality, or you do know, and you are arguing in bad faith.

Either way, you are a liar. Its a common strategy to pin your worst trait on your opponent, so, naturally, i expect you'll call me a liar in your next post.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 09:38 AM, said:

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that new HPG is heavily tilted in favour of snipers. This is false. The perches can be pushed easily and the cover snipers have on the perches is limited and isolated.

Ok, unlike you, I will argue in good faith, even though you are once again committing the logical fallacy of assuming bad faith.

Against a good team, you cannot easily push their snipers. In order to do this, you would have to move all the way around the main body of their team, in order to reach the ramps on the other team's side of the map. A good team will not allow you to do this - they will cover & defend their snipers.

Regarding "limited cover" - everything is limited. It is impossible for a map to have an unlimited amount of cover. Besides, all a mech really needs is 1 piece of cover to snipe from.

In terms of "isolation", that term doesn't really make sense, and I have already addressed that point.

[SFC174]

Balance is a subjective assessment fellas. Until someone provides a commonly agreed upon definition of balance and a metric by which we can rate it, you're just throwing opinions back and forth.

The OP said old HPG was very different than new HPG and it would be nice to have the choice of both (a la Forest Colony and Frozen City). Balance isn't really the issue here. It's about having more choices in a system where players get to choose the maps they like. Is that really so controversial? Let's stop imputing motives to people you don't know.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Ok, unlike you, I will argue in good faith, even though you are once again committing the logical fallacy of assuming bad faith.

Im not assuming it, you admit you hate new hpg because it "favours sniping"

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Against a good team, you cannot easily push their snipers.
In order to do this, you would have to move all the way around the main body of their team, in order to reach the ramps on the other team's side of the map. A good team will not allow you to do this - they will cover & defend their snipers.

That happens when you face good teams. They dont let you easily push their fire support. Because they play better than you. Its supposed to be like that. If your team is good, it will recognize that maneuver and either fall back to pull the bulk of the enemy team outside the snipers area of fire, or do an actual flank and take the perches. At some point you have to admit a lost or won match is either due to you being better or worse at clicking on bad robots than the guy on the other team.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Regarding "limited cover" - everything is limited. It is impossible for a map to have an unlimited amount of cover. Besides, all a mech really needs is 1 piece of cover to snipe from.

If a mech is sniping from a single piece of cover, you can return fire with long ranged weapons, or adjust your position so that you never end up in their range of fire. Humping the same hill is a recipe for death or low damage numbers. Good snipers reposition constantly, and HPG doesn't make that particularly easier than any other map.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

In terms of "isolation", that term doesn't really make sense, and I have already addressed that point.

The bit about snipers being able to drop down to escape brawlers?

Yeah. They can drop down. So can the brawlers. If you scare a sniper into the bowl, guess what, you just put a sniper in the midrange fight. They will lose that fight 90% of the time.

[Extra Guac]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 09:54 AM, said:

Im not assuming it, you admit you hate new hpg because it "favours sniping"

I never said that I hate the map, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that the map is unbalanced.

If I believe that the map favors sniping, then how could I be arguing in bad faith? That makes no sense.

Quote

That happens when you face good teams. They dont let you easily push their fire support. Because they play better than you. Its supposed to be like that. If your team is good, it will recognize that maneuver and either fall back to pull the bulk of the enemy team outside the snipers area of fire, or do an actual flank and take the perches. At some point you have to admit a lost or won match is either due to you being better or worse at clicking on bad robots than the guy on the other team.

Yes, the more talented team will generally win the match. Your reply concedes the point that the sniper positions & the pathways to them can be covered by the sniper's teammates, and therefore it is not necessarily "easy" to push those positions. Get it?

Quote

The bit about snipers being able to drop down to escape brawlers?

Yeah. They can drop down. So can the brawlers. If you scare a sniper into the bowl, guess what, you just put a sniper in the midrange fight. They will lose that fight 90% of the time.

You have not forced them into anything, if their teammates are properly controlling their side of the map, then the brawler cannot drop down or he'll be massacred. Now you simply have a brawler that is out of position & isolated from their team, and he can't do anything from up on the wall.

[pattonesque]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 09:34 AM, said:

These points are both correct. However, if you charge a sniper in your brawler, and they drop down, then your brawler also becomes much less effective, because it's out of position. So, you haven't really gained any advantage in that scenario. And now the brawler is separated from his team. Also, I never said anything about snipers repositioning, I said a team can have more than 1 sniper, in different spots, and cover a large % of the map that way.



Based on your experiences as a brawler, do you believe that the map is properly balanced? Or, is your point simply that it's possible to have success as a brawler?



You certainly did not. Accusing someone of lying, with no basis in reality, is not a convincing argument. You haven't really said anything about the map at all, or deconstructed anything.

1. A sniper having dropped down is way more out of position than a fast brawler up on the wall. Depending on where the team is, the sniper may be incredibly vulnerable, and the brawler can jump on him. Or the brawler can easily reposition while the sniper has to struggle to get sightlines.

2. Snipers can cover a large percentage of the map that way. But if they do that, their team is at a big disadvantage in the center brawl. Snipers who range too far are exceptionally vulnerable to flankers and will lose trades to mid-range builds at the uttermost flanks.

3. I do believe it's properly balanced for the reasons stated above.

[pbiggz]

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 10:06 AM, said:

I never said that I hate the map, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that the map is unbalanced.

If I believe that the map favors sniping, then how could I be arguing in bad faith? That makes no sense.

Because simply allowing people to snipe isn't favouring sniping.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 10:06 AM, said:

Yes, the more talented team will generally win the match. Your reply concedes the point that the sniper positions & the pathways to them can be covered by the sniper's teammates, and therefore it is not necessarily "easy" to push those positions. Get it?

And if a team positions properly in the center snipers wont be able to get them at all. Does that make the center overpowered? I haven't conceded anything here. You're simply saying that a team that knows what its doing can leverage sniping to win, which is how its supposed to be. Old HPG did not present this option.

Extra Guac, on 01 April 2022 - 10:06 AM, said:

You have not forced them into anything, if their teammates are properly controlling their side of the map, then the brawler cannot drop down or he'll be massacred. Now you simply have a brawler that is out of position & isolated from their team, and he can't do anything from up on the wall.

Again, if their team outplays you, they outplayed you. GG.

You can't foist onto the maps your personal responsibility to make good choices and not miss your shots. The fact that an enemy team can win using a strategy you don't personally like on a particular map does not make that an illegitimate line of play.

[TheStranger]

pbiggz, on 27 March 2022 - 07:09 PM, said:

it was a brainless nascar donut. No thanks. Ill take the map that actually makes you think.

No one thinks about how they play.

[ScrapIron Prime]

TheStranger, on 01 April 2022 - 08:45 PM, said:

No one thinks about how they play.

That could be part of their problem.

[pattonesque]

MPhoenix, on 02 April 2022 - 10:01 AM, said:

[Redacted]

the mwo pubbie experience: giving up immediately

Edited by Armchair General, 03 April 2022 - 07:04 AM.
quote cleanup

[YueFei]

pattonesque, on 02 April 2022 - 01:05 PM, said:

the mwo pubbie experience: giving up immediately

Well of course. Why admit to having agency? That would mean owning their own failures. That'd be fatal to fragile egos. Better to attribute failure to factors outside of their own control so that they can tell themselves and others that they are victims.

[MPhoenix]

LOL!! The tears are like a fine Hennessy Paradis, sweet with just a hint of peach in the aftertaste.

pattonesque, on 02 April 2022 - 01:05 PM, said:

the mwo pubbie experience: giving up immediately

YueFei, on 02 April 2022 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well of course. Why admit to having agency? That would mean owning their own failures. That'd be fatal to fragile egos. Better to attribute failure to factors outside of their own control so that they can tell themselves and others that they are victims.

Thank you for admitting your disdain for 'lesser' players.
Obviously the opinions and thoughts of the common folk are humorous at best and deserving of scorn, not like your so much more valuable and insightful thoughts and opinions.

As reminder, most player play for fun, not to give themselves an artificial sense of self worth and importance.
If it's not fun why bother?

BTW, that's a serious question, if a game is not fun why should people play and spend money on it?
Several people have voiced an opinion that they enjoyed the original HPG map, what specifically would the harm be to bringing it back? Why the level of push-back from several people here to the idea?

The only down side I can see is that some might have to play a map they don't like, while at the same time telling others to do exactly that.

Corbantu, on 02 April 2022 - 02:17 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Is it any more a case of F'ing over the team then the ones that drop in pairs or in a group and go off doing their own thing leaving everyone else to fight shorthanded?

Maybe 15% of the times I've played matches with 2-4 man group in them did they communicate outside their group, suggesting a plan using the team or something similar. The vast majority of the time as soon as they hear 'All systems nominal' they're gone.


Two points of interest; you were the only reply that addressed the detrimental effect doing something like this would have on a team and how it would affect other people. Your initial response was anger at how this would harm others. Well said and well done.

The first two responses were far more concerned with self-aggrandizement, 'what does one expect from the peons?'.
Sadly the very essence of what angered you and all too common within this specific forum community.

If as the 'victim' of your anger I have any say I hope you don't get moderated, your response was the only valid one made.

If it assuages anything no, I have never done that on any map not even Caustic Valley where I am functionally blind due to color blindness issues.. You are correct it would be low class and rude.

Given the level of derision I've seen out of some for opinions other than their own I was curious as to what kind of responses I would get to that statement.
Sadly I was not disappointed.

Edited by Armchair General, 03 April 2022 - 07:02 AM.
quote cleanup

[pattonesque]

that's a lot of words justifying being a baby

[YueFei]

pattonesque, on 02 April 2022 - 05:18 PM, said:

that's a lot of words justifying being a baby

Look at those psychological defense mechanisms kick in with all the pretzel logic to justify himself, LOL.