114 replies to this topic

[Vonbach]

pattonesque, on 30 March 2022 - 02:49 PM, said:

as explained earlier, Emerald and Caustic are likely too sniper-friendly, but HPG is a good balance.

A good balance if you're a sniper. It was the most popular map in the game. Now everyone avoids it.
Hiding in the basement or behind what cover there is isn't much fun.

[pattonesque]

Vonbach, on 30 March 2022 - 02:59 PM, said:

A good balance if you're a sniper. It was the most popular map in the game. Now everyone avoids it.
Hiding in the basement or behind what cover there is isn't much fun.

As I've explained, which you've ignored, there is plenty of cover in the center and plenty of routes to approach or flank snipers. You do not and should not need to hide in the basement. Everyone does not avoid it -- it's picked fairly regularly and only reliably loses to Mining in my experience.

I would politely suggest the next time you play it to pay attention to where snipers are and not immediately give up. you can have excellent brawling matches there without having to flee to the basement.

[Magnus Santini]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 March 2022 - 08:12 PM, said:

Partly disagree. Old Caustic and HPG were terrible maps. The only possible game play was ring-around-the-middle. You could have fixed Caustic by making two more domination circles so it randomized WHERE the fight happened in that game play mode, but there’s no option to do that with old HPG, so it had to go.
. . .
. . . Bring back old caustic and old polar with multiple Dom circles and spawns. . . .

Sir, you have overlooked the decisive Battle of the Pickle Factory. In skirmish, the fight is wherever the team wants it to be.

[pbiggz]

The entire content of all the counterarguments i've seen so far in this thread has been "old HPG plays better". When i press any of you on how it plays better, you say new HPG "Has too many snipers". When I tell you that means you just want snipers nerfed, you tell me you "like snipers", which should mean you dont mind new HPG, but "old HPG plays better" and so on.

None of you have given a meaningful argument, you're all arguing in bad faith.

[Vonbach]

pbiggz, on 30 March 2022 - 08:50 PM, said:

The entire content of all the counterarguments i've seen so far in this thread has been "old HPG plays better". When i press any of you on how it plays better, you say new HPG "Has too many snipers". When I tell you that means you just want snipers nerfed, you tell me you "like snipers", which should mean you dont mind new HPG, but "old HPG plays better" and so on.

None of you have given a meaningful argument, you're all arguing in bad faith.

No we'd like maps that don't cater to snipers as nearly all maps do. The old HPG had platforms for the snipertards and it also had a central structure for lots of cover. Now nearly every map is the same a ring of sniper platforms overlooking a central target gallery with a smattering of buildings or rocks or whatever. It ruins the gameplay. Like in the new emerald vale map where 70% of both teams ran up the sniper maps on a domination match. Its annoying as hell huddling under cover to avoid a constant rain of er lasers/gauss shots and lrms from wherever like I'm a fish in a barrel. Some of us actually like to brawl and no having to travel 1200 or more meters out of my way and up ramps to get rid of them is not an answer.

Edited by Vonbach, 30 March 2022 - 09:13 PM.

[YueFei]

Vonbach, on 30 March 2022 - 09:08 PM, said:

Some of us actually like to brawl and no having to travel 1200 or more meters out of my way and up ramps to get rid of them is not an answer.

So... in fact you already do know of counter-play options, but choose not to use them because....?

[Akamia Terizen]

I genuinely don’t understand the complaints regarding snipers…

Just take cover. It’s not hard on HPG. If you see an opportunity; attack the sniper.

If my T5, lore-based build-loving rear end can do it, then so can you. lol

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 30 March 2022 - 11:41 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

This is one map I would love to see again. The new one isn't bad but the snipefest is meh.

pbiggz, on 27 March 2022 - 07:09 PM, said:

it was a brainless nascar donut. No thanks. Ill take the map that actually makes you think.

It wasn't. Maybe you didn't think not hard enough because there were tons of options if you were creative. Actually more than in many other maps in the current rotation

YueFei, on 30 March 2022 - 10:24 PM, said:

So... in fact you already do know of counter-play options, but choose not to use them because....?

...he wrote it. Maybe you should read again?

Edited by Weeny Machine, 31 March 2022 - 12:56 AM.

[pbiggz]

Its literally not a snipefest. Its *able to be sniped on*. People complaining about it being a snipe fest are just mad they have to think about snipers at all. That's it. That's the thread.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I think the main change to this map was opening up the middle of the map more and enabling all mechs to walk on the outside walls. So now you have ERPPC Direwolfs on the walls on new HPG where before they couldn't get up there. They also have more LoS to more areas than before. I think those two changes are the ones that have fundamentally changed how HPG plays. Some love that, some hate it.

Possible changes:
1. Lower the height of the walls
2. Make it more accessible from the inside (more than a couple ramps--maybe bridges?)
3. More cover and walls around the middle or open areas, maybe more larger blocks
4. Shrink the overall size of the map so mid-range weapons can pressure snipers better, from the middle of the map

The whole purpose of the map designs is to stop Nascaring. I don't see a lot of Nascaring on new HPG compared to the old one so on that point, I guess you can say it was successful.

[PocketYoda]

I don't like it but i'd be ok with Classic HPG returning if they removed Alpine.. I'd do literally Anything to remove Alpine.

[Vonbach]

[color=#959595]

TheCaptainJZ, on 31 March 2022 - 05:26 AM, said:

I think the main change to this map was opening up the middle of the map more and enabling all mechs to walk on the outside walls. So now you have ERPPC Direwolfs on the walls on new HPG where before they couldn't get up there. They also have more LoS to more areas than before. I think those two changes are the ones that have fundamentally changed how HPG plays. Some love that, some hate it.

Possible changes:
1. Lower the height of the walls
2. Make it more accessible from the inside (more than a couple ramps--maybe bridges?)
3. More cover and walls around the middle or open areas, maybe more larger blocks
4. Shrink the overall size of the map so mid-range weapons can pressure snipers better, from the middle of the map

The whole purpose of the map designs is to stop Nascaring. I don't see a lot of Nascaring on new HPG compared to the old one so on that point, I guess you can say it was successful.

[/color]

"NASCAR" is sniper speak for "I don't have line of sight across the entire map."

[pbiggz]

Vonbach, on 31 March 2022 - 08:08 AM, said:

"NASCAR" is sniper speak for "I don't have line of sight across the entire map."

OK GOOGLE, show me someone who has an inferiority complex, without saying they have an inferiority complex.

[TheCaptainJZ]

"Nascar" is a perpetual flanking maneuver. The faster flankers win. it was the #1 complaint on the forums so the maps were specifically redesigned to try to stop it. They did this by opening maps to sniping. The problem with that, that I see, is the sniper-specific areas are more protected positions on the map, or harder to advance to without getting murdered by the sniper. I think the new HPG protects snipers too much with the wall. The ramps help to gain access, but the "rock-paper-scissors" answer to snipers are fast mechs that can traverse the field to the ramps to get up there. There's not much cover to protect an advance to close the distance for other mechs. It's a power position. Emerald Vale has the same overall design, but the middle of the map has better cover from snipers. Still, the power position is protected and there's only two ways up for all mechs.

[pbiggz]

TheCaptainJZ, on 31 March 2022 - 09:14 AM, said:

"Nascar" is a perpetual flanking maneuver. The faster flankers win. it was the #1 complaint on the forums so the maps were specifically redesigned to try to stop it. They did this by opening maps to sniping. The problem with that, that I see, is the sniper-specific areas are more protected positions on the map, or harder to advance to without getting murdered by the sniper. I think the new HPG protects snipers too much with the wall. The ramps help to gain access, but the "rock-paper-scissors" answer to snipers are fast mechs that can traverse the field to the ramps to get up there. There's not much cover to protect an advance to close the distance for other mechs. It's a power position. Emerald Vale has the same overall design, but the middle of the map has better cover from snipers. Still, the power position is protected and there's only two ways up for all mechs.

If the conversation is "we should add a bit more cover and an extra ramp or two to get up to the sniper perches, that's a real conversation, one i probably actually agree with.

"remove it and put it back to the way it was before so i never get sniped" is not a real debate.

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2022 - 09:24 AM, said:

"remove it and put it back to the way it was before so i never get sniped" is not a real debate.

MWO logic tree at work...

We all get frustrated when the player base leans into and "seemingly" abuses one play mechanic or another. "I got killed by LRM!" Must nerf LRMs. "I got sniped across the map!!!" Must nerf snipers. "Maps favor this or that"... Must nerf maps!!!

It's maddening.

I've said it before and will say it again... There are both soft and hard counters to everything. If you identify as a victim, that is all you will ever be.

I swear if folks actually flexed a little and learned to adapt instead of demanding nerfs everyone would be a lot happier and matches would be more fun all around...

To be fair... Forums would be even more boring than they've become... So there's that I guess.

Edited by DaZur, 31 March 2022 - 09:38 AM.

[Dr Wubs]

Affirmative

(Whoever has dumbed this down to 'remove it and put back the old one' is missing the original point)

Why do we have Forest Colony Classic, Forest Colony Reloaded, Forest Colony: The Colony Strikes Back, but we can only have one HPG map?

Edited by Dr Wubs, 31 March 2022 - 02:09 PM.

[YueFei]

Weeny Machine, on 31 March 2022 - 12:34 AM, said:

...he wrote it. Maybe you should read again?

His stated reason for not utilizing the counterplay option he himself just described is....? What? That it isn't "fun" for him? That having to take cover is "annoying as hell"? I guess he'd rather lose instead of using patience to maneuver for advantage?

Follow that to its logical conclusion. He can't be arsed to maneuver 1.2 klicks. What does he want? To be able to rush across the middle and just face-rush enemy snipers to death? Wouldn't that totally invalidate the sniper playstyle and make brawl-push overpowered?

I don't even play snipers, I'm in a Medium brawler almost 100% of the time, and brawling is my #1 preferred playstyle, but I don't let this bias cause me to fanatically rage against other playstyles, especially when there are plenty of counter-play options available to me.

[SFC174]

Dr Wubs, on 31 March 2022 - 02:04 PM, said:

Affirmative

(Whoever has dumbed this down to 'remove it and put back the old one' is missing the original point)

Why do we have Forest Colony Classic, Forest Colony Reloaded, Forest Colony: The Colony Strikes Back, but we can only have one HPG map?

Thank you. I believe the OP said that old HPG plays very differently than the new one. This is true. No reason someone couldn't enjoy both maps. I enjoyed the old map for many reasons. As someone said, let people choose.

[pbiggz]

SFC174, on 31 March 2022 - 03:34 PM, said:

Thank you. I believe the OP said that old HPG plays very differently than the new one. This is true. No reason someone couldn't enjoy both maps. I enjoyed the old map for many reasons. As someone said, let people choose.

Old HPG does play very differently than new, mainly because it plays worse. Of the old bunch, it definitely was among the least bad but new HPG presents a vastly better experience.

Additionally, as mentioned before, players will vote for whatever gives them easy rewards/easy matches. Old HPG caters to mid ranged generalist builds and is hostile to snipers, so a vote for old HPG is a vote to nerf snipers for a match. Give players the power to do something that damaging, and they'll do it every time, even if they have a worse experience because of it. "It gets voted for alot" is not a rationale or excuse, its an expression of toxic player behaviour.