155 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

That's what happens, when mid Tier 3 player plays in Tier 4 and MM is ok - another missed Ace of Spades.


P.S. Also please note, how better game balance is and how closer match is, when both teams are HEAVIER.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 April 2022 - 04:02 AM.

[Knownswift]

Neat outlier for you.

That does not look like a close game. Look at the damage scores.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 03 April 2022 - 03:54 AM, said:

That's what happens, when mid Tier 3 player plays in Tier 4 and MM is ok - another missed Ace of Spades.


P.S. Also please note, how better game balance is and how closer match is, when both teams are HEAVIER.

This is not a balanced game.

I don't know how many times we need to explain it to you. You aren't entitled to 1000 damage matches. Getting sub-500 damage in a match is normal, and not a sign that the matchmaker is failing, and the matchmaker doesn't exist to punish you specifically, so stop acting like you are being personally victimized by PGI.

It is exhausting, and adds absolutely nothing of value to any meaningful conversation about improving this game in any way that matters.

Edited by pbiggz, 03 April 2022 - 08:36 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Nightbird, on 01 April 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

Suppose there there is no match maker at all and all teams are made randomly, about 26% of players will still have a WLR of 0.9-1.1.

The simple WLR match maker I suggested would put 73% of players into the same range, which is 280% better than no MM. Wait times would decrease, not increase.

Well the simple fact that the MM does keep a lot of people at around 1.0 w/l means it's doing something unless you just think w/l is a coin flip. The big problem with it though is it doesn't judge weight On the player side I think it should take into account the mech as well. We all know mech means a lot so a person in a top mech should weigh just a bit more than say someone running around in a spider. that same person in a dire can do far more.

I'd also like to see them bring back the 3x3x3x3 rule. Get more folks playing lights and mediums. I know i find it kinda lame that i drop on matches with 5 assaults-6 assaults and then the rest mediums.. I've had matches with no lights and one medium far to often. Dump the gates if you need to after 1-2 mins, but at least that would entice folks to play the lighter mechs.

Personally i think the tiers should be changed, It should run off Jarls list. take the arrogate or w/l and and match score. Then break it down by 2500, everyone above 20k would be T5. Move people down say .25 a month if they are getting worse so someone can't just tank 10 matches and drop a level.

[Nightbird]

JC Daxion, on 03 April 2022 - 03:05 PM, said:

Well the simple fact that the MM does keep a lot of people at around 1.0 w/l means it's doing something unless you just think w/l is a coin flip.

The current MM doesn't. It's garbage.

[SupernovaSymphony]

Dude. Don't complain. I am stuck in t1.

Its the worst.

T1 players think that they know best, and that everyone else is idiots for not reading their mind.

It's got the most toxic people, and vitriol and abuse are frequent.

There are a few decent people, but its not fun. Its all sniper meta. No experimenting with silly and fun builds.

Fortunately, msot of my friends are t5-t3, so I get dragged down a bit, and the games are very variable because of it.

Appreciate your time in the lower tiers, cause once you get to t1, the fun drops off hard

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 03 April 2022 - 08:36 AM, said:

This is not a balanced game.

I don't know how many times we need to explain it to you. You aren't entitled to 1000 damage matches. Getting sub-500 damage in a match is normal, and not a sign that the matchmaker is failing, and the matchmaker doesn't exist to punish you specifically, so stop acting like you are being personally victimized by PGI.

It is exhausting, and adds absolutely nothing of value to any meaningful conversation about improving this game in any way that matters.

It is. Because it ended as 12:10, not 0:12. What is problem with current matchmaker? My team dealt exactly 4800dmg to eliminate enemy team. It's exactly 400dmg per player. And it's exactly 200MS per player for dmg component. One can assume, that in balanced match every player should deal exactly 400dmg and get 200-250MS. Yeah. But problem is - this is average value. Problems start, when some players ALWAYS get results above average, while some players ALWAYS get result below it. Even more simple explanation: my chances to get good "above average" match should be 50/50. And they aren't. Because due to bad matchmaking I'm always matched with/against players with higher skills, so they always pull match result towards themselves, causing long streaks of bad "below average" matches. And this isn't prestige only. I get worse rewards => have to grind longer, than them. This just isn't fair. They shouldn't get advantage due to MM allowing them to perform seal clubbing.

P.S. To clarify things a little bit. MM shouldn't force player to always have 200-250MS. What MM does - it tries to make your AvgMS = 200-250. Some of your matches can be above average, some can be below. This chances most likely have normal distribution. Wrong thing, that happens - is lose streaks. They happen, because wrong matchmaking causes mixing players from different Tiers. And players from higher Tiers pull match results towards themselves.

For example Tier 3 guy, playing in Tier 4, can have 800dmg, that is 2x in comparison Tier 4 player. Tier 4 player has average dmgs = 100-200 instead of expected 400. And this happens CONSTANTLY. One would expect Tier 1 guys to be minority and Tier 3 guys to be majority. So, it would be expected, that Tier 3 guy wouldn't meet Tier 1 guys in every match. Or may be matches with Tier 1 guys would be interleaved with normal matches. Or may be bad matches with Tier 1 guys would be compensated somehow. But it doesn't happen. 100% matches are imbalanced, making game unplayable for guys in lower Tiers and forcing them to quit this game, that makes situation worse, worse and WORSE. Both Tier 3 and Tier 4 are DEAD now.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 April 2022 - 10:44 PM.

[Bamboozle Gold]

How do we make middle tiers better? By getting more players into the game. Then mid-tier players (like me) will more consistently get matches with just mid-tier players.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 07 April 2022 - 09:27 PM, said:

It is. Because it ended as 12:10, not 0:12. What is problem with current matchmaker? My team dealt exactly 4800dmg to eliminate enemy team. It's exactly 400dmg per player. And it's exactly 200MS per player for dmg component. One can assume, that in balanced match every player should deal exactly 400dmg and get 200-250MS. Yeah. But problem is - this is average value. Problems start, when some players ALWAYS get results above average, while some players ALWAYS get result below it. Even more simple explanation: my chances to get good "above average" match should be 50/50. And they aren't. Because due to bad matchmaking I'm always matched with/against players with higher skills, so they always pull match result towards themselves, causing long streaks of bad "below average" matches. And this isn't prestige only. I get worse rewards => have to grind longer, than them. This just isn't fair. They shouldn't get advantage due to MM allowing them to perform seal clubbing.

P.S. To clarify things a little bit. MM shouldn't force player to always have 200-250MS. What MM does - it tries to make your AvgMS = 200-250. Some of your matches can be above average, some can be below. This chances most likely have normal distribution. Wrong thing, that happens - is lose streaks. They happen, because wrong matchmaking causes mixing players from different Tiers. And players from higher Tiers pull match results towards themselves.

For example Tier 3 guy, playing in Tier 4, can have 800dmg, that is 2x in comparison Tier 4 player. Tier 4 player has average dmgs = 100-200 instead of expected 400. And this happens CONSTANTLY. One would expect Tier 1 guys to be minority and Tier 3 guys to be majority. So, it would be expected, that Tier 3 guy wouldn't meet Tier 1 guys in every match. Or may be matches with Tier 1 guys would be interleaved with normal matches. Or may be bad matches with Tier 1 guys would be compensated somehow. But it doesn't happen. 100% matches are imbalanced, making game unplayable for guys in lower Tiers and forcing them to quit this game, that makes situation worse, worse and WORSE. Both Tier 3 and Tier 4 are DEAD now.

You aren't being forced to have a certain match score. Your match score is a function of your performance. You cannot keep externalizing your own failings as a pilot. There is no magic matchmaker that will make you perform better. You make yourself perform better.

What you're asking for is to club Tier 5s til' the cows come home. You don't get to ask for that.

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2022 - 04:48 AM, said:

You aren't being forced to have a certain match score. Your match score is a function of your performance. You cannot keep externalizing your own failings as a pilot. There is no magic matchmaker that will make you perform better. You make yourself perform better.

What you're asking for is to club Tier 5s til' the cows come home. You don't get to ask for that.

I don't want to explain, how MMR-based MM works every time and to everybody. Score isn't function of your performance, because there is another factor. It's PVP game. You are able to do only what other players allow you to do. So score is function of performances of all players in specific match. And what players are picked for specific match - depends on MM.

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 08 April 2022 - 05:31 AM, said:

Words

Again,

You cannot externalize all your own personal failings.

[MrMadguy]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2022 - 05:33 AM, said:

Again,

You cannot externalize all your own personal failings.

Looks like trolling, because you completely ignore what I say. "Git gut" argument doesn't work here. If I'm bad in certain match - my rating drops. And as result next match will be with guys, who also bad. That's it. Only bottom line guys from Tier 5 will hit sea floor some day. But it can't be right for 50% guys like me. If it's right - then this game is truely dead, because there is nobody else below 50% Tier 3 but me.

[feeWAIVER]

MrMadguy, on 08 April 2022 - 05:31 AM, said:

I don't want to explain, how MMR-based MM works every time and to everybody. Score isn't function of your performance, because there is another factor. It's PVP game. You are able to do only what other players allow you to do. So score is function of performances of all players in specific match. And what players are picked for specific match - depends on MM.

This is a valid argument.
Mwo is a team game, and there is no I in TEAM.

Though, it would be better worded as "Score isn't 'solely' a function of your performance", as you do have impact on your score..
But so do the other 23 people in the match.

[Kynesis]

Bamboozle Gold, on 08 April 2022 - 01:06 AM, said:

How do we make middle tiers better? By getting more players into the game. Then mid-tier players (like me) will more consistently get matches with just mid-tier players.

PGI doesn't have the ability or desire to attract new players (aside from simply wishing they had more wallets.. I mean players).
Even if PGI could magically be persuaded to consider competent business practices, those new players would still have to deal with MWO's new player experience - not just the first tutorial or game, but the first few months; The 'new player experience' really encompasses however much time it takes a given person to settle in, learn the ropes and start building a few good mechs.

The experience for people starting out in MWO has always been arduous, but now with soup queue? I would honestly be amazed if more than a tiny fraction of the very few new people who do try the game stick around for more than a month.

Edited by Kynesis, 08 April 2022 - 06:14 AM.

[Bamboozle Gold]

Kynesis, on 08 April 2022 - 06:02 AM, said:

PGI doesn't have the ability or desire to attract new players

I was under the impression that they have desire. Isn't part of the reason why the skill tree is revamped so that it's easier for new players to understand?

[pbiggz]

MrMadguy, on 08 April 2022 - 05:40 AM, said:

Looks like trolling, because you completely ignore what I say. "Git gut" argument doesn't work here. If I'm bad in certain match - my rating drops. And as result next match will be with guys, who also bad. That's it. Only bottom line guys from Tier 5 will hit sea floor some day. But it can't be right for 50% guys like me. If it's right - then this game is truely dead, because there is nobody else below 50% Tier 3 but me.

You're not being trolled.

Every time you post screenshots of your "good" matches, they're dramatic stomps in your favour. You're acting like dominating the enemy team is a sign that the matchmaker is doing its job, and when you narrowly win, or lose, the matchmaker is "punishing you".

Its not designed to give you stomps. You don't get to club seals.

[Horseman]

The first step to reducing MM issues is clamping down the tier floodgates from +/- 2 to +/- 1 . We had it before, matchmaking was longer but the matches were much tighter as well.

[pbiggz]

Horseman, on 08 April 2022 - 06:56 AM, said:

The first step to reducing MM issues is clamping down the tier floodgates from +/- 2 to +/- 1 . We had it before, matchmaking was longer but the matches were much tighter as well.

If we committed to 8v8, this would be a must.

[feeWAIVER]

Bamboozle Gold, on 08 April 2022 - 06:21 AM, said:

I was under the impression that they have desire. Isn't part of the reason why the skill tree is revamped so that it's easier for new players to understand?

Yes, and the whole Russian Region expansion is still on the timeline right?

[Curccu]

Horseman, on 08 April 2022 - 06:56 AM, said:

The first step to reducing MM issues is clamping down the tier floodgates from +/- 2 to +/- 1 . We had it before, matchmaking was longer but the matches were much tighter as well.

pbiggz, on 08 April 2022 - 07:34 AM, said:

If we committed to 8v8, this would be a must.

But if it stays 12v12 might be stupidly hard to get games as T1 as I understood from ASHs post few months back that there are very few T1 compared to other tiers.